Sir Stick-a-Lot, bladeforged project...

[Choopak]

Sup guys..

I've been looking for a good staff user, something for epics, full melee (got other toons for range) and end game (aka EN, EE, new U21 raids) survivable.
Read a couple of posts, saw a few builds but none made me wanna try it as much as the "Zeus". Very good, well rounded build, and BF as a bonus
The "Zeus" is a rog12/pal6/monk2, focus heavy on DPS while still investing in defenses. Many point out the monk12/pal/6/rog2 (or others monk12 as base), this build have more defenses, mobility but at the cost of DPS (mostly from SA)
Sooo i decide to merge them together, the result is impressive: minor lost to DPS over the "Zeus", same defenses and mobility of the monk12.
Here it is: Sir Stick-a-Lot, Monk9/Pal6/rog5

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Stick-a-Lot 
Level 28 Lawful Good Bladeforged Male
(6 Paladin \ 9 Monk \ 5 Rogue \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 502
Spell Points: 95 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 22
Will: 16

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             17                    30
Dexterity            11                    16
Constitution         16                    22
Intelligence         10                    15
Wisdom                6                    11
Charisma             16                    22

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19
+5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19
+5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19
+5 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Lord of Blades
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Fortification (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Warforged Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Mechanist (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Communion of Scribing (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Power Attack (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Improved Power Attack (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Weapon Attachment (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Bladeforged - Power of the Forge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Divine Righteousness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Item Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Control (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Sly Flourish (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Sly Flourish (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Sly Flourish (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Shadow Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Shadow Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - No Mercy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Specialization (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Holy Strike

Now if you compare it to "Zeus"...
Lose: 1d6 SA (3 dices from rog12 to rog 5 but took 2 dices in enhanc), immunity to knockdown, opportunist (10% fort bypass and 3% DS), 1 BF PA, racial seeker, 1min on DM (got 1min duration per turn he have 2min), vault.
Gain: more HP, better saves, 11% more dodge (4% monk, 3% dodge feat, 4% enhanc), monk abilities (slow fall, +15% movement speed) improved evasion, shadow veil (incorporeal 25%), 2 spammable attacks: ironfist and sly flourish
Idem: race: bladeforged, TA staff enhancement up to tier 5, pally def stance, divine might through KotC, BaB, main destiny: LD, weapon: Sireth, gear...

Doublestrike: still good (not a 3xeTR) sitting at 61%: 29% constant (3% past life, 8% item, 10% air stance, 3% black dragon set, 5% PTWF) and 32% on rotation, QS (25%) and LM (7% more when i crit)
HP should be between 900-1000, PRR sitting at 66 (25 pally stance, 10 epic PRR, 15 artifact from set, 16 augment)
Dodge is at 25% (6% monk, 2% rog, 3% dodge feat, 4% enhancements, 10% gear) not boost or blitzing!

Variation: swap AP in ninja spy for more REF saves/ dodge, swap deflect arrow for either mobility (more dodge) or precision (this actually compensate for losing opportunist)

I also did another version using Trip: replace feat dodge and arrow deflection with CE and imp trip, put 2 AP in BF tactics, and 3 in TA tree. I prefer that one because i have 2 fighter's past life so the DC is good, and unlike stunning blow, the save is vs balance not FOR. It's also nice to have a little CC, plus tripped mobs are "sneakable"... This version can also quickly double as an emergency tank: switch to earth stance, turn on CE (make sure to pick up imp CE in LD destiny if you do this) and your PRR just went up by 35 (15 GMoF earth + 20 imp CE)

Tell me what you think guys, always looking for improvement.

p.s: started a new thread out of respect for Lurzifer and his "Zeus", so plz answer here if you have comments, not on his...

[Choopak]

Come on guys, gimme pointers, so i can make it better.

[kuro_zero]

Can't really think of anything to add. Personally I'd probably swap deflect arrow for toughness to fit in completionist and take Forced Escape over Holy Strike.

Epic DR is pretty underwhelming, Epic Reflexes is nice since with some PLs and twists you can get nigh untouchable reflex save thus marginalizing imp evasion.

Precision is nice, but losing PA dmg bonus for the fort bypass hurts alot.

Still, solid build and definately something I'll do since looking to stack up 3x monk PL and BF iconic PL.

[Choopak]

Can't really think of anything to add. Personally I'd probably swap deflect arrow for toughness to fit in completionist and take Forced Escape over Holy Strike.

Epic DR is pretty underwhelming, Epic Reflexes is nice since with some PLs and twists you can get nigh untouchable reflex save thus marginalizing imp evasion.

Precision is nice, but losing PA dmg bonus for the fort bypass hurts alot.

Still, solid build and definately something I'll do since looking to stack up 3x monk PL and BF iconic PL.

I went for the trip version, loving it! Need to find a Dun'Robar ring with vertigo now... lol So on mine, i took combat expertise and improved trip (both monk bonus), already pick up toughness at level 1.
Holy strike i was undecided... useful vs incorporeal undead (lots in new raid) cause of the added ghost touch.
Epic PRR is not great, good advice on epic reflexes, those 1 can kill you, even with improved evasion.
Ya i know precision and power attack don't mix, i would not take it... just put it there as a suggestion.

Only level 22 now, but build is solid, and the speed!!! OMG

thanks for inputs man

[kuro_zero]

Twist Piercing Clarity instead - that covers Ghost Touch, True Seeing, and gives 10% fort bypass.

Eventually I plan on having that with Grim Precision and Dance of Flowers, and after epic completionist putting either Dragonhide (no fail on 1 vs Fort Save) or Unearthly Reaction (+dodge and Reflex save).

[Choopak]

Twist Piercing Clarity instead - that covers Ghost Touch, True Seeing, and gives 10% fort bypass.

Eventually I plan on having that with Grim Precision and Dance of Flowers, and after epic completionist putting either Dragonhide (no fail on 1 vs Fort Save) or Unearthly Reaction (+dodge and Reflex save).

Very good suggestion Kuro, right now i have: grim precision, dance of flower and primal scream. I'll keep the first two and swap primal scream for piercing clarity...

Unearthly reaction is awesome, so much in same package... too bad i'm not close to be an epic completionist (only on eTR so far)

Thanks man, really good advice!

[Choopak]

Twist Piercing Clarity instead - that covers Ghost Touch, True Seeing, and gives 10% fort bypass.

Eventually I plan on having that with Grim Precision and Dance of Flowers, and after epic completionist putting either Dragonhide (no fail on 1 vs Fort Save) or Unearthly Reaction (+dodge and Reflex save).

Little update... level 23 now, pick up Sireth... and the quests just suddenly became wayyyyy easier :0)
Tried to swap my twists like we discussed, but realize that Piercing Clarity is tier 4, Grim Precision tier 3 and Dance of Flower tier 1...
I don't have the destiny points to get all that (you need 21 destiny points), so in the mean time, i'll keep my original set up...

[kuro_zero]

Little update... level 23 now, pick up Sireth... and the quests just suddenly became wayyyyy easier :0)
Tried to swap my twists like we discussed, but realize that Piercing Clarity is tier 4, Grim Precision tier 3 and Dance of Flower tier 1...
I don't have the destiny points to get all that (you need 21 destiny points), so in the mean time, i'll keep my original set up...

Yea it does require quite a bit of fate points to get that setup. While grinding the required fate points out I twisted Pierce clarity over Grim Precision. Lose 5% fort bypass but makes gearing alot easier to fit in deadly, resistance, Dodge, even Greensteel HP item.

[Choopak]

Yea it does require quite a bit of fate points to get that setup. While grinding the required fate points out I twisted Pierce clarity over Grim Precision. Lose 5% fort bypass but makes gearing alot easier to fit in deadly, resistance, Dodge, even Greensteel HP item.

I like it! Piercing Clarity offers much more...
Another change i made, because i run with a monkcher in FotW, is to drop primal scream for Running with the Wind, i like the +30 movement and the 3% double strike when in Air Stance.

[Loriac]

This class split using BF is the other build I'm currently considering for my stick fighter (the alternative I'm looking at is the FVS12/Mnk6/Pal2 build "Sam" that I posted a couple of days ago).

When I planned this class split myself a few days ago, I had the following feats and ap spend:

Feats: PA, C, GC, OC, IC:B, THFx3, MoF, GMoF, Quicken, Precision, Dodge

AP Spend: TA 35pts (to include Staff Vault, and also taking the +6% to glancing blows); BF 12pts (sadly no PA enhancements); KotC 11pts (DMIII); Sacred Defender 11pts; Ninja Spy 11pts

The key question I have regarding the build you've put up is that you've dropped the THF chain completely. However, glancing blows work with quarterstaves now on cleaves - test it on the dummy and you'll see this. I don't know when this was changed, but the THF line could be worthwhile now for quarterstaff users.

The Zeus build is essentially feat constrained in this regard because it gets one less monk feat, and must spend three feats to get to GM of forms rather than two as for the 9/6/5 split.

The 9/6/5 is severely AP constrained unfortunately, meaning that you have to make some tough choices in places. However, you can certainly get to 25% chance to proc glancing blows if you take perfect 2h fighting as one of your ED feats, and this will also give 60% glancing blow damage with the full THF line. That seems like a lot of damage left on the table if you ignore the THF line now that its working on staves.

[Choopak]

This class split using BF is the other build I'm currently considering for my stick fighter (the alternative I'm looking at is the FVS12/Mnk6/Pal2 build "Sam" that I posted a couple of days ago).

When I planned this class split myself a few days ago, I had the following feats and ap spend:

Feats: PA, C, GC, OC, IC:B, THFx3, MoF, GMoF, Quicken, Precision, Dodge

AP Spend: TA 35pts (to include Staff Vault, and also taking the +6% to glancing blows); BF 12pts (sadly no PA enhancements); KotC 11pts (DMIII); Sacred Defender 11pts; Ninja Spy 11pts

The key question I have regarding the build you've put up is that you've dropped the THF chain completely. However, glancing blows work with quarterstaves now on cleaves - test it on the dummy and you'll see this. I don't know when this was changed, but the THF line could be worthwhile now for quarterstaff users.

The Zeus build is essentially feat constrained in this regard because it gets one less monk feat, and must spend three feats to get to GM of forms rather than two as for the 9/6/5 split.

The 9/6/5 is severely AP constrained unfortunately, meaning that you have to make some tough choices in places. However, you can certainly get to 25% chance to proc glancing blows if you take perfect 2h fighting as one of your ED feats, and this will also give 60% glancing blow damage with the full THF line. That seems like a lot of damage left on the table if you ignore the THF line now that its working on staves.

On a staff build, you don't use Cleave and Great cleave that much. Staff user relies on attack speed and double strikes to do their DPS. Unlike centered kensai, we are more "single target" focus than "cleaving monsters". While the THF feat line would adds to overall damage, cause of glancing blows, i decide to add more dodge with Dodge and Mobility (or CC with Combat expertise and Imp Trip)

It come down to personal preference, i might change it later, but right now (level 25) it works just fine, and with gears getting better, so is my DPS.
Thanks for inputs, i'll look at your build, sound fun...

[Cardtrick]

On a staff build, you don't use Cleave and Great cleave that much. Staff user relies on attack speed and double strikes to do their DPS. Unlike centered kensai, we are more "single target" focus than "cleaving monsters". While the THF feat line would adds to overall damage, cause of glancing blows, i decide to add more dodge with Dodge and Mobility (or CC with Combat expertise and Imp Trip)

I actually disagree with that. I've been playing a lot of staff builds lately, and I Cleave/gCleave frequently. Pretty much constantly any time I've got at least 2 enemies around me -- although it might be more optimal only to do it when I've got 3, I haven't done the math. (I do run in LD pretty often, so of course cleaving a lot is nice for resetting momentum swing / lay waste.)

If I didn't have the THF line, I would actually be cleaving a lot more than I already do, since I wouldn't have such nice glancing blows to apply AOE damage.

I do still consider the THF line optional. But losing it is definitely suboptimal from a DPS standpoint. That said, your build is more tanky than I prefer mine to be, so I can certainly understand you choosing Toughness and Epic Toughness over the THF line.

[Loriac]

On a staff build, you don't use Cleave and Great cleave that much. Staff user relies on attack speed and double strikes to do their DPS. Unlike centered kensai, we are more "single target" focus than "cleaving monsters". While the THF feat line would adds to overall damage, cause of glancing blows, i decide to add more dodge with Dodge and Mobility (or CC with Combat expertise and Imp Trip)

It come down to personal preference, i might change it later, but right now (level 25) it works just fine, and with gears getting better, so is my DPS.
Thanks for inputs, i'll look at your build, sound fun...

To each his own of course, you can play staff as you like.

However, the original reason no one took THF on staff builds was purely because glancing blows didn't proc on cleaves and great cleaves, so the investment was suboptimal. This appears to have changed recently (I'm not sure exactly when), but its possible that some stick users haven't realised this yet. Theres nothing in principle that I can think of that stops staves now being 'cleaving monsters', but its quite possible I've overlooked something here - certainly on my stick build I'm levelling up, cleave and great cleave are very good abilities, and the ITHF I have taken so far is helping a lot when thinning herds (solo elite framework at level was a good test of this recently).

I thought doublestrike could proc on cleaves, but haven't explicitly tested this. Do you have anything that confirms that doublestrike doesn't apply? If doublestrike doesn't proc on cleaves then I'd understand to an extent what you're saying, but to my knowledge it does apply in general (and certainly it applies to other 'special' hits such as ameliorating strike).

I'm also a bit surprised by the statement that you don't cleave / great cleave - in LD, I would have thought lay waste and momentum swing are key abilities, so cleaving and great cleaving is necessary to recharge those. Do you ignore those abilities on your build?

[Cardtrick]

To each his own of course, you can play staff as you like.

However, the original reason no one took THF on staff builds was purely because glancing blows didn't proc on cleaves and great cleaves, so the investment was suboptimal. This appears to have changed recently (I'm not sure exactly when), but its possible that some stick users haven't realised this yet. Theres nothing in principle that I can think of that stops staves now being 'cleaving monsters', but its quite possible I've overlooked something here - certainly on my stick build I'm levelling up, cleave and great cleave are very good abilities, and the ITHF I have taken so far is helping a lot when thinning herds (solo elite framework at level was a good test of this recently).

I thought doublestrike could proc on cleaves, but haven't explicitly tested this. Do you have anything that confirms that doublestrike doesn't apply? If doublestrike doesn't proc on cleaves then I'd understand to an extent what you're saying, but to my knowledge it does apply in general (and certainly it applies to other 'special' hits such as ameliorating strike).

I'm also a bit surprised by the statement that you don't cleave / great cleave - in LD, I would have thought lay waste and momentum swing are key abilities, so cleaving and great cleaving is necessary to recharge those. Do you ignore those abilities on your build?

Doublestrike definitely doesn't proc on cleaves. Cleaves also break the normal attack chain, which is worse on a staff build with rogue levels than on most builds, because you don't benefit from your enhanced attack speed during that time. Against a single target, even when running in LD, a staff build with rogue levels is going to do more damage by refraining from cleaves. When fighting a boss, I don't cleave except immediately after popping damage boost + haste boost (to avoid the short global cooldown).

I'm not sure what the breakeven point is. I know that with 3 enemies in cleave range, you're better off using them. With only 2, I'm not sure -- I wouldn't be surprised to find that it comes down to whether or not you're in LD and can use the cleave to recharge Momentum Swing.

The THF feats are undoubtedly useful, and I take them when I can. But when I don't have them, I don't miss them all that much. Glancing blows don't include sneak attack damage or critical hits, which tend to be large components of my damage on staff builds. I also move around enough in combat that I'm definitely not getting as many glancing blows as one would think from pure numbers (you don't get glancing blows while moving, since you're not in the normal attack chain).

Just as an example of my priorities, if I had to make a choice between getting Empower Healing and Quicken on a fleshy to improve Cocoon or getting the THF feats, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the THF line. But I do value the THF feats enough that I would certainly take them over Toughness + Epic Toughness.

[Choopak]

I actually disagree with that. I've been playing a lot of staff builds lately, and I Cleave/gCleave frequently. Pretty much constantly any time I've got at least 2 enemies around me -- although it might be more optimal only to do it when I've got 3, I haven't done the math. (I do run in LD pretty often, so of course cleaving a lot is nice for resetting momentum swing / lay waste.)

If I didn't have the THF line, I would actually be cleaving a lot more than I already do, since I wouldn't have such nice glancing blows to apply AOE damage.

I do still consider the THF line optional. But losing it is definitely suboptimal from a DPS standpoint. That said, your build is more tanky than I prefer mine to be, so I can certainly understand you choosing Toughness and Epic Toughness over the THF line.

I do use Cleave and Great Cleave just not as much as my centered kensai (which use them almost exclusively)

My goal was not to be tanky (even if i put a more tankish version in OP), i want DPS!!! A melee build with less than 800 HP look a bit squishy to me... old habits dies hard... I guess i'm just use to have them on a melee class, lol being around too long... back in the days it use to be mandatory, lol!
I'll will look into that for sure...

[Choopak]

Doublestrike definitely doesn't proc on cleaves. Cleaves also break the normal attack chain, which is worse on a staff build with rogue levels than on most builds, because you don't benefit from your enhanced attack speed during that time. Against a single target, even when running in LD, a staff build with rogue levels is going to do more damage by refraining from cleaves. When fighting a boss, I don't cleave except immediately after popping damage boost + haste boost (to avoid the short global cooldown).

I'm not sure what the breakeven point is. I know that with 3 enemies in cleave range, you're better off using them. With only 2, I'm not sure -- I wouldn't be surprised to find that it comes down to whether or not you're in LD and can use the cleave to recharge Momentum Swing.

The THF feats are undoubtedly useful, and I take them when I can. But when I don't have them, I don't miss them all that much. Glancing blows don't include sneak attack damage or critical hits, which tend to be large components of my damage on staff builds. I also move around enough in combat that I'm definitely not getting as many glancing blows as one would think from pure numbers (you don't get glancing blows while moving, since you're not in the normal attack chain).

Just as an example of my priorities, if I had to make a choice between getting Empower Healing and Quicken on a fleshy to improve Cocoon or getting the THF feats, I wouldn't think twice about dropping the THF line. But I do value the THF feats enough that I would certainly take them over Toughness + Epic Toughness.

You nailed it!

1) double strikes don't procs on Cleave/ Great Cleave (or Momentum Swing)
2) It breaks the attck chain, so on single target, cleaving actually lower your DPS (because of boosts)
3) vs 2-3 mobs, i'll use Cleave/ Great Cleave, if just for the animation
4) i will review the build, probably taking off Comabt Expertise, Imp Trip, and Toughness to fit in the 3 THF feats... Will update soon...

Thanks for all comments guys!

[Cardtrick]

2) It breaks the attck chain, so on single target, cleaving actually lower your DPS (because of boosts)

Minor caveat -- right after triggering your boosts, a cleave will increase your DPS, since it starts your attacks moving again right away and avoids the normal 1-2 second pause. So in a prolonged fight -- like against a boss -- when I need to refresh my boosts, I hit damage boost (shift-2), haste boost (shift-3), great cleave (3) right in a row.

[Loriac]

Thanks for the info Cardtrick and Choopak, I didn't realise that doublestrike won't work on cleaves.

I agree about not using cleaves on single targets due to the slowdown (although I'd add that the quarterstaff cleave animation seems quite efficient relatively speaking, and doesn't visibly seem to slow the chain too badly). I also hadn't thought about how the 15% extra speed the acrobat enjoys makes cleaves less worthwhile relatively speaking; this is interesting in the context of what the best dps is for a henshin mystic staff user (i.e. would it make sense for such a build to spam momentum swing / great cleave / cleave on a single target vs. just using the normal attack). Thats not really on-topic for this thread of course so I won't continue on about it here, but its something I think it may be worth looking into for the 12FVS/6Monk/2Pal build I've put up.

I think I'd still take the THF feats on a BF 9M/6Pal/5Rog split (per the feat list I set out earlier) but I agree now that the dps gains aren't in the 'must have' category.

[Choopak]

Minor caveat -- right after triggering your boosts, a cleave will increase your DPS, since it starts your attacks moving again right away and avoids the normal 1-2 second pause. So in a prolonged fight -- like against a boss -- when I need to refresh my boosts, I hit damage boost (shift-2), haste boost (shift-3), great cleave (3) right in a row.

Yep! forgot to mention it, but that's precisely what i do (except that on a BF it's Power of the Forge, not damage boost hehe)

[Choopak]

To each his own of course, you can play staff as you like.

I'm also a bit surprised by the statement that you don't cleave / great cleave - in LD, I would have thought lay waste and momentum swing are key abilities, so cleaving and great cleaving is necessary to recharge those. Do you ignore those abilities on your build?

I don't pretend to know it all, hence that thread , it's also fun to see how people use classes/ AP synergy to squeeze as much DPS they could.

I'm leveling my other destinies (to get to 21 fate points), so haven't been in LD for 3 levels now... Another reason i'm not a "cleaving maniac" cause i don't need it to recharde Momentum Swing...