New Rogue, Old Questions

[Menethenes]

Im back after a few years absence. Running a Rogue with my wife, shes playing a Wizzy. We are duoing content atm, around 5th level. Sarlona server.

I created my character without too much thought and am trying to tweak my build as I learn more. Now, I would LIKE to go repeater with some melee. We have enough followers and pets between us to grab the agro while we do our thing... usually =) I dont have any twinks or past lives or anything so minimal equipment.


Starting Stats (32 point build)

STR 14
DEX 18 (22) (+1 ability, +1 racial, +2 item)
CON 14
INT 14 (16) (+2 item)
WIS 8
CHA 8

Took two-weapon fighting and weapon finesse as my feats, and most action points into Assassin for the sneak attack die.

So to rework this guy to be a ranged repeater with decent melee how much should I change? I can either use my +0 wood or reroll, not a big deal at this level. Some questions:

1. Drop Str to 10, add points to Int? Maybe drop Dex down a couple and add to Cha for UMD?
2. Anything I need a much higher Dex for? I seem to remember something about a min dex of 21 for some ranged thing?
3. How useful is a single level splash into Artificer? I see a pet that will not level up with my rogue levels, but looks cool, and summon bolts which seems useful, and free repeater proficiency, instead of spending feats as a straight rogue. Anything else Im missing, and is this worth losing the capstone?
4. I still want those sneak attack die as much as possible.
5. Feats, I just dont know. =)
6. Looking at the Enhancement panel, I think I would like to get enough points in the Mech line for Targeting Sights and UMD, then the rest in Assassin. Good idea?

Thanks for the help!

[Cardtrick]

1. Drop Str to 10, add points to Int? Maybe drop Dex down a couple and add to Cha for UMD?
2. Anything I need a much higher Dex for? I seem to remember something about a min dex of 21 for some ranged thing?
3. How useful is a single level splash into Artificer? I see a pet that will not level up with my rogue levels, but looks cool, and summon bolts which seems useful, and free repeater proficiency, which I can get in the mech line. Is this worth losing the capstone?
4. I still want those sneak attack die as much as possible.
5. Feats, I just dont know. =)

1. Sounds good. Don't drop Dex for CHA -- you can get enough UMD with just ranks and buffs.

2. Min dex of 21 for Combat Archery, which is an epic feat. It is only relevant if you're planning to take this build to at least level 21 -- but if you are, then it's well worth building for. This dex includes only base stats, level ups, and tomes -- enhancements/feats/equipment do not count.

Points in Dex are not wasted anyway. They affect your chance to hit. It's true that you will eventually be able to apply your Int modifier to damage, but it's still dex to hit on a rogue.

Do you have any tomes? The recent anniversary event has made +3 tomes pretty widely available.

In an ideal world, you would start with max int and enough dex to hit 21 with whatever tome you have. All level ups to int.

3. A single level splash? Don't do it. Rogues have some of the best capstones in all their trees. And 1 artificer really doesn't get you much. It's not a big deal to carry around bolts.

If you want to think about a deeper splash, to pick up some other useful abilities -- something like 6 artificer and 6 ranger levels -- then that's certainly worth considering. But when it's just 1 level, no way -- you give up too much.

4. Speaking of sneak attack die . . . I know this is going to sound weird, but I would think seriously about going to tier 5 and taking the capstone in the Assassin tree, rather than in Mechanic, even if you're planning on primarily using repeaters. The Assassinate ability is just awesome on a high-int build, whereas doubleshot isn't great on a repeater (since it only applies to the first bolt of your 3 bolt volley). Both capstones give +2 Int, which is the biggest draw, but the Assassin capstone gives 4 sneak attack dice rather than 2 for Mechanic (although Mechanic gets extra DEX, the nice hip flask ability, and some bonus damage to crossbows).

5. For feats, you need to decide early how committed you want to be to ranged vs. being a hybrid melee/ranged. Either way, you're going to be extremely feat-starved. It's really tempting to go for human for the extra feat, but if you have drow unlocked, their bonuses to DEX, CHA, and INT makes them near ideal for this type of build.

If you want to go for a true hybrid, which uses melee about as much as ranged, check out Unbongwah's Mechassin thread.

The feats that are basically necessary to be effective ranged DPS with a repeater are Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical:Ranged, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot.

The feats that are basically necessary to be effective melee DPS as a dex/int-based rogue using knife specialization are Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Critical: Piercing (or Slashing, if going for kukris rather than daggers). It would be nice to have Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave -- but not realistic, and most of your DPS will come from sneak attacks anyway.

The feat that's really, really, really nice to have (very nearly mandatory) on any pure rogue is Precision. This lets you bypass a portion of fortification to still get sneak attack damage.

The epic feats you really, really want are Combat Archery and Improved Sneak Attack.

As you can see . . . that's 6 ranged, 4 melee, 1 general, and 2 epic feats -- a total of 13. You will only actually get either 10 or 11 feats (11 for human only), and that includes the 3 feats only available at epic levels 21, 24, and 27. So no matter what, you have to give some things up.

My suggestion, based on what I think your goals are from the first post, is still to take tier 5 Assassin rather than tier 5 mechanic, but only use melee for Assassinate -- otherwise, rely on your repeater. With that in mind, you'd focus on the ranged feats. So you'd take Precision, Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical:Ranged, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot as your 7 heroic feats. Combat Archery and Improved Sneak attack as your first 2 epic feats. Then something not on the original list, like Blinding Speed, as your final epic feat. Playstyle is a combination of ranged damage with the repeater and sneaking in close to Assassinate enemies.

And do bear in mind that any repeater mechanic build is going to be a little bit flavor focused. You're not going to be soloing epic elites. But it should be fun to play and reasonably effective.

[Menethenes]

Thanks for the input. Food for thought. BTW, playing a halfling, and kinda committed to it atm, so wont be doing a human or drow. It wont be ideal, but it IS fun. =)

As I said in my post, despite wanting a repeater build I was actually just thinking of putting enough into Mech to get the bonuses to xbow, trapping, Targeting Sights and +3 UMD. After that, going full out in Assassin for the +sneak attack dice and of course the Assassinate skill. Not sure how many points I get total, but if I can get Assassinate AND do some serious damage to the Mech tree, that would be cool too. =)

So.. on the reroll, with a halfling, I can drop Str to 10, which allows me to have either Dex or Int at 18. The only way to get Dex and Int to 18 on creation is to drop Str to 6 (which would be a huge pain) or drop Con down, which I dont want to do either. I guess I COULD start with an 8 Str and have a 17 Dex, 18 Int at start, put one ability point into Dex at some point and a +3 tome before I reach 21. What do you think?

I have no problem dropping two-weapon fighting, but the weapon finesse would be nice when I just HAVE to melee. But top priority, Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot. Gotcha.

[Cardtrick]

I have no problem dropping two-weapon fighting, but the weapon finesse would be nice when I just HAVE to melee. But top priority, Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot. Gotcha.

I would definitely skip Weapon Finesse. You get the effect for free as long as you use daggers or kukris from the first core in the Assassin tree. It is true that you would struggle against skeletons, but I don't think you can afford to spare a feat for it.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Thanks for the input. Food for thought. BTW, playing a halfling, and kinda committed to it atm, so wont be doing a human or drow. It wont be ideal, but it IS fun. =)

As I said in my post, despite wanting a repeater build I was actually just thinking of putting enough into Mech to get the bonuses to xbow, trapping, Targeting Sights and +3 UMD. After that, going full out in Assassin for the +sneak attack dice and of course the Assassinate skill. Not sure how many points I get total, but if I can get Assassinate AND do some serious damage to the Mech tree, that would be cool too. =)

So.. on the reroll, with a halfling, I can drop Str to 10, which allows me to have either Dex or Int at 18. The only way to get Dex and Int to 18 on creation is to drop Str to 6 (which would be a huge pain) or drop Con down, which I dont want to do either. I guess I COULD start with an 8 Str and have a 17 Dex, 18 Int at start, put one ability point into Dex at some point and a +3 tome before I reach 21. What do you think?

I have no problem dropping two-weapon fighting, but the weapon finesse would be nice when I just HAVE to melee. But top priority, Rapid Reload and Point Blank Shot. Gotcha.

Check out the build in my signature for tips on a EE competent halfling assassin, and as always, have fun and enjoy the game!

[Deathdefy]

I've run a lot of Rogue Mechassin variants. They are fun, and this stranger on the internet approves of your decision.

I'm currently a 2 Artificer / 18 Rogue Sun Elf - but Tomes, Gear, Racial Int and Completionist from past lives subsidize the assassinate DC lost from the splash. I'm unsure I'd ever splash an assassin without being very confident about how my DC would look (about 40 is great for every Elite up to level 20; not that you need to hit 40 anyway; assassinate still will work with less), then things get increasingly silly for epic levels.

The big perk of an Arti splash is free Rapid Reload, and to a lesser extent Repeating Heavy Crossbow Proficiency (which saves you AP since the mechanic tree is pretty dreadful and not having to invest 21 points to qualify for free proficiency is nice).

Agreed don't just splash 1 level. Going to 2 gives you access to Rune Arms which makes up some of the damage from the capstone's 4d6 SA (and another 1d6 SA from not taking rogue 19) loss (albeit still not the 3 DC you lose from assassinate). Not splashing at all is probably a stronger option though.

I like the arti splash because Conjure Bolts... but if you're more vigilant than myself about restocking (and are less peeved about trips to House Deneith where every single other ranged class has infinite returning ammo) it is certainly sub-optimal (though still perfectly viable in EEs).


Anyway, practical advice, since I probably wouldn't advise taking the artificer splash unless you're super-negligent about restocking bolts:

- Seriously consider taking IC: Ranged instead of GTWF. I'm unsure what balance of melee combat vs ranged you intend to do, but I know even when I've tried a rogue with the TWF feats, I end up using the repeater the vast majority of the time anyway. Archer's Focus also makes me feel like ranged is a viable option against 1 on 1 bosses (though it's probably literally 50% worse than melee in a 1 on 1).

- Take XWP: Heavy Repeating Crossbow instead of Point Blank Shot, then swap it back in at level 12. Alternatively, go:
1) Rapid Reload
3) XWP: Heavy Repeating Crossbow <-- Swap this out for Precision at 12. Level 12 is when you can get free Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency through the Mechanic Tree.
6) TWF
9) Point Blank Shot
12) ITWF

- Get a (ML:16) DoubleCross bow from Spinner of Shadows when you're able to run it.

- Get a Radiance II Crossbow from Shroud at some point in the distant future. Once you get one of these, IC: Ranged is basically mandatory until level 23 when you will use the Needle you have obtained at some point even further into the future.

- What server are you on? If you're on Khyber I'm happy to donate two +3 tomes for Int and Dex your way. (Cards II + IV and Cards V + VII http://ddowiki.com/page/Anniversary_Card_Collection)

If you are on Khyber then, send Aggrim a mail.

- Race choice wise it's between Drow, Human and Halfling in my opinion. Half-Elves' increased Point Blank Shot (and therefore Sneak Attack) range along with some Int from Artificer Dilettante is strangely good specifically for Mechassins too. I'd probably go Drow if you have it, then Human if you need the feat, then Half Elves, then Halfling. Though Halfling's still a good choice since SA damage.

- Dump strength. Unless MAAAAYBE if you're a halfling. Even then I'd just eat a +2 tome. Ray of Enfeeblement will be a concern for a while, but truly, by about level 12, you will be ever so glad you didn't permanently invest in a useless stat to avoid early game inconvenience.

Drow Stats (assuming +3 Int and Dex)
STR: 8
CON: 12 (6 points)
WIS: 8
DEX: 18 (10 points)
INT: 20 (16 points) <-- All level ups.
CHA: 10

- Throw 4 enhancement points into Acrobat to get 50% Faster Sneaking.