Need some feedback with a TR melee wizard

[DarkGospel]

***********Updated for the 3rd time**********
I'll will probably TR in a few months, just upping my crafting enough to be useful and getting some more items before actually doing it.
I'm kind bored of always making pure casters or/and 2 level splashes so I decided to look for something fun to do instead and after reading about melee wizards for some time I got interested on this one 12 Wizard/6 Monk/2 Paladin I already made some alterations on the build but I still think it could be optimized.

Have posted this on the wizard forum but nobody replied in 3 days so I decided to repost it here and see if I can finally get some feedback.

Race: Warforged
Past Lives: Wizard x1
Classes: 12 Wizard/6 Monk/2 Paladin

Abilities (34 Point)
STR: 33 -- (14 base +2 tome +6 level +8 item +3 insight)
DEX: 30 -- (15 base +2 tome +2 wraith +7 item +2 insight)
CON: 34 -- (18 base +2 tome +4 enhancement +1 level +7 item +2 insight)
INT: 17 -- (12 base +5 tome)
WIS: 21 -- (6 base +2 tome +4 enhancement +7 item +2 insight)
CHA: 14 -- (12 base +2 tome)

Progression: 1 Monk, 2 Wizard, 3 Paladin, 4 Monk, 8 Paladin, 9 Wizard, 12 Monk and 13 to 20 Wizard

Feats
Base: Cleave (1), Maximize (3), Quicken (6), ITWF (9), IC: Bludgeoning (12), Great Cleave (15), GTWF (18), Overwhelming Critical (21), Master of Forms (24), Epic Toughness (27)
Wizard: Mental Toughness (3), Extend Spell (13), Improved Mental Toughness (18)
Monk: Power Attack (1), TWF (4), Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness (5), Toughness (12)
Paladin: Follower of the Silver Flame (2)
Destiny: PTWF (26), Elusive Target (28)

Enhancements
Warforged (9ap): Core Line V (7ap), Toughness (2pt)

Wizard: Palemaster (32ap): Core Line IV (4ap), Deathless Vigor (6ap), Spell Critical: Negative Energy IV (8ap), Skeletal Knight (2ap), Negative Energy Conduit (3ap), Bone Armor (3ap), Constituition (4ap), Improved Shrouding (2ap)

Wizard: Eldritch Knight (12ap): Core Line IV (1ap), Improved Mage Armor (3), Toughness (3), Improved Shield (3)

Monk: Shintao (15ap): Core Line I (1ap), Deft strikes (6ap), Iron Skin (6ap), Iron Fists (2ap)

Paladin: Knight of the Chalice (12ap): Core Line I (1ap), Extra Turning (3ap), Attack Boost (2ap), Divine Might (6ap)

Saves:
Fort: 40 – (+12 base +4 epic +12 con +2 cha +6 resistance +4 insight)
Ref: 36 – (+9 base +4 epic +11 dex +2 cha +6 resistance +4 insight)
Will: 34 – (+13 base +4 epic +5 wis +2 cha +6 resistance +4 insight)

Epic Destinies:
Any of those two.
Fury of the Wild: Tunnel Vision (1pt), Bolder Toss (1pt), Strength (8pt), Acute Instincts (3pt), Damaged Reduction (3pt), Sense Weakness (3pt), Overwhelming Force (1pt), Fury Eternal (2pt), Unbridled Fury (2pt)
Twits: Bane To Undeath, Endless Turning, Endless Faith

Legendary Dreadnought: Sundering Swing (2pt), Strength (8pt), Momentum Swing (3pt), Improved Power Attack (2pt), Lay Waste (2pt), Critical Damage (3pt), Advancing Blows (2pt), Master's Blitz (2pt)
Twits: Bane To Undeath, Endless Turning, Endless Faith

Gear:
Trinket: Planar Focus of Prowess (+3 str insight)
Head:
Neck: Holy Symbol of Lolth
Goggles: Drow Smoke Googles/Lenses of the Woodsman
Bracers: Skirmisher Bracers/Epic Bracers of the Demon's Consort
Body: Stone Heart (+8 str, Way of the Sun Soul)
Cloak:
Ring: Ring of Shadows (yellow augment slot)
Ring: ToD ring with Holy Burst
Boots: Treads of Falling Shadow/Cannith Boots of Propulsion
Gloves: Nether Grasps
Belt: Belt of the Sun Soul
Weapons: Antipode/Grave Wrappings/Ivy Wraps
Quiver: Quiver of Alacrity

Standard Spell Load-out:
Level 1: Protection From Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Merfolk's Blessing, Nightshield
Level 2: Blur, Eagle's Splendor, False Life, Gust of Wind, Resist Energy
Level 3: Haste, Heroism, Magic Circle Against Evil, Rage, Repair Serious Damage
Level 4: Acid Rain, Death Aura, Negative Energy Burst,Stone Skin
Level 5: Niac's, Eldar's, Protection from Elements,Teleport
Level 6: True Seeing/Reconstruct, Greater Heroism, Tenser's Transformation

Some considerations About this build:
-12 wizard levels give cra*p DCs even if I tried to improve it, it would never be enough, however it gives me access to palamaster and archmage threes also most of the useful arcane buffs and acid rain/wall of fire
-8 monk levels wouldn't make that big of a difference so I'm going with only 6 monk since healing amp and Wholeness of Body are not really wanted in this build
-2 paladin levels for Divine Grave which really improves all saves and also access to Knight of the Chalice three for Divine Might
-the progress order is due to BBA requisites for ITWF, GTWF and IC: Bludgeoning otherwise I wouldn't be able to get those feats within the heroic levels
-due to the reasons above I would only be able to take wraith form at level 20 which makes warforged a solid choice due to reconstruct and all the immunities before getting to wraith form
-wraith form as it's already well known heightens survivability due to 25% incorporeality and also greatly boost damage due to causing constitution damage on crit hits
-improved shrouding improves all undead forms making wraith form have 30% incorporeality and +2 dex bonus
-the skeleton was just a filler to be able to get improved shrouding
-the neg crit line is only for my healing with death aura and neg bursts
-extend spell is a must since with short duration buffs and small sp pool it's much cheaper to double the duration expending 10 extra sp than recasting the buff, it also help with death aura
-mental toughness and improved mental toughness make a big difference allowing to cast more two or three death aura/neg burst and since most of the meta magic feats are worthless with only 12 caster levels it became a good option
-left most of the gear slots empty since I rarely play melee so I'm not sure what would be good gear for this build
-probably will change between Fury of the Wild and Legendary Dreadnought and see what works best or what I like more

[kuro_zero]

Not sure u see the benefit of investing so heavily WIS considering WF already have -2 penalty plus burning two feats for what ammounts to +1 Stun DC and +1 Will Save. I'd put the level ups into STR instead.

I'd drop stun fist and dump entirely - WF+Undead form makes you immune to most will based spells and self-cast protection from evil covers the rest.

bump CHA to 12, CON to 18 (shore up low wiz hit dice)

Monk Bonus feats I'd select PA, TWF, and toughness.

That frees up two heroic feats, which I would spend on Quicken (don't want burst/recon interrupted) and maximize (lay down firewall/acid rain and fight em inside it)

Epic feats I'd take Overwhelming Critical, and at level24 put the level up stat in CON and grab Epic Toughness.

Blinding speed is kinda wasted on a self-hasting caster melee. Epic Reflexes probably a better choice so you don't fail on a 1.
*EDIT* Figured out a better feat - Master of Forms. That'll get you the +1 Crit Mult on 19-20 in earth form. I'd prolly take it at 24 (still put level up in CON) and Epic Toughness at 27.

Epic Destiny would be either of the two strong melee destinies (legendary or fury). Key twists would be Bane To Undeath so you can get Turn Undead charges to power Divine Might (another reason to go STR IMO), and dance of flowers (+1.5[w]) Grind enough fate points out and you could twist Dragonic Burst but I don't think you're DC for it will be worthwhile.

Basically, WIS based works on divine melee since it strengthens their spell DC in addition to stun fist. On an arcane you have much better damage mitigation buffs (displacement and stoneskin) where increasing DPS makes more sense.

*EDIT* Enhancements
Sting of the Ninja doesn't work with unarmed (blunt) and Henshin doesn't give you a whole lot. Instead I'd put the AP into Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand) and Iron Skin (more PRR in earth stance). Take fists of Iron from that tree, and put remaining AP into Archmage for cheap SLA buffs, either Illusion (Invis, Blur, Displacement as Core 1-3) or Transmutation (Jump, Knock, Haste as Core 1-3). Can also pick up some easy HP in EK tree.

[ValariusK]

I run with two friends with similar builds---wizard-12/monk-2/ranger-6 and wizard-12/ranger-6/rogue-2.
Your build is fairly similar, although feats are going to be tighter--ranger 6 gives a fair number of useful free feats.

I suggest you go human. You'll need the feat. Pally will give you really excellent saves, probably enough to be great even in EE.
Casting tensers over and over is going to get really old, and very sp consumptive. I suggest getting enough EK to get perma-tensers. Both of my friends have it and its really nice. EK has a lot of PRR and AC improving stuff as well.

[DarkGospel]

Not sure u see the benefit of investing so heavily WIS considering WF already have -2 penalty plus burning two feats for what ammounts to +1 Stun DC and +1 Will Save. I'd put the level ups into STR instead.

I'd drop stun fist and dump entirely - WF+Undead form makes you immune to most will based spells and self-cast protection from evil covers the rest.

bump CHA to 12, CON to 18 (shore up low wiz hit dice)

Monk Bonus feats I'd select PA, TWF, and toughness.

That frees up two heroic feats, which I would spend on Quicken (don't want burst/recon interrupted) and maximize (lay down firewall/acid rain and fight em inside it)

Epic feats I'd take Overwhelming Critical, and at level24 put the level up stat in CON and grab Epic Toughness.

Blinding speed is kinda wasted on a self-hasting caster melee. Epic Reflexes probably a better choice so you don't fail on a 1.
*EDIT* Figured out a better feat - Master of Forms. That'll get you the +1 Crit Mult on 19-20 in earth form. I'd prolly take it at 24 (still put level up in CON) and Epic Toughness at 27.

Epic Destiny would be either of the two strong melee destinies (legendary or fury). Key twists would be Bane To Undeath so you can get Turn Undead charges to power Divine Might (another reason to go STR IMO), and dance of flowers (+1.5[w]) Grind enough fate points out and you could twist Dragonic Burst but I don't think you're DC for it will be worthwhile.

Basically, WIS based works on divine melee since it strengthens their spell DC in addition to stun fist. On an arcane you have much better damage mitigation buffs (displacement and stoneskin) where increasing DPS makes more sense.

*EDIT* Enhancements
Sting of the Ninja doesn't work with unarmed (blunt) and Henshin doesn't give you a whole lot. Instead I'd put the AP into Shintao for Deft Strikes (+10% offhand) and Iron Skin (more PRR in earth stance). Take fists of Iron from that tree, and put remaining AP into Archmage for cheap SLA buffs, either Illusion (Invis, Blur, Displacement as Core 1-3) or Transmutation (Jump, Knock, Haste as Core 1-3). Can also pick up some easy HP in EK tree.

Thanks I made some alterations to the build but maybe I should completely drop ninja spy 'case now with archmage for cheap buffs the +10% offhand strikes from shintao, and divine might from night of the chalice, ninja spy just seems not worth it on this build, but overall I think the build looks better now.

Also I'm not sure if I can take Both Power Attack and Cleave at level 1 but it would be the only way to get it without messing with the TWF line, IC another option would make me end up losing overwhelming critical and even the epic feat slots for heroic ones.

I run with two friends with similar builds---wizard-12/monk-2/ranger-6 and wizard-12/ranger-6/rogue-2.
Your build is fairly similar, although feats are going to be tighter--ranger 6 gives a fair number of useful free feats.

I suggest you go human. You'll need the feat. Pally will give you really excellent saves, probably enough to be great even in EE.
Casting tensers over and over is going to get really old, and very sp consumptive. I suggest getting enough EK to get perma-tensers. Both of my friends have it and its really nice. EK has a lot of PRR and AC improving stuff as well.

Thanks for the suggestion but is it really worth dropping improved shrouding from perma-tensers? The other bonuses from EK seem really nice more PRR and AC are always welcome and there is even some extra hp.

[kuro_zero]

Thanks I made some alterations to the build but maybe I should completely drop ninja spy 'case now with archmage for cheap buffs the +10% offhand strikes from shintao, and divine might from night of the chalice, ninja spy just seems not worth it on this build, but overall I think the build looks better now.

Also I'm not sure if I can take Both Power Attack and Cleave at level 1 but it would be the only way to get it without messing with the TWF line, IC another option would make me end up losing overwhelming critical and even the epic feat slots for heroic ones.



Thanks for the suggestion but is it really worth dropping improved shrouding from perma-tensers? The other bonuses from EK seem really nice more PRR and AC are always welcome and there is even some extra hp.

Yea if you're going PM for shroud, ninja spy doesn't give you a whole lot. Those points could go into the racial tree as extra fort is helpful in epic., 1pnt to reduce arcane spell failure (WF composite comes with innate 5% although its not needed if using Shadow Grasps) and either toughness or CON enhancements (more HP moar!) Or mechanist for repair amp for better reconstructs when you can't be in form (light dmg heavy quests, etc)

Concerning EK tree, the 1st core works with unarmed as an additional cleave atk which is nice. The spellsword toggles do not work with unarmed however. Permanent tensors is convienent but not much else. If SP is a concern, scrolls of tensors last for quite a bit of time.

And yes, you can take PA and cleave at level 1. Just put PA in monk bonus feat first then cleave in the general feat slot.

[ValariusK]

My friends didn't have perma-tensers to begin with either, but enhancement respecs are pretty cheap, and once they got it, they're NEVER going back. It really is that nice. Getting dispelled or not having it after you die and are rezzed is no longer an issue.

EK also as you recognize gives you a lot of hp prr and defense. As a wraith melee, you really need to worry about 2 things

1. Having enough aggregate defense through displacement, incorporeal, PRR, ac, dodge, evasive kiting, etc that the incoming steady damage is soaked up by your aura and
2. Incoming massive spike dps, like light damage, polar ray, etc. You can mitigate a lot of this with evasion, but some of the light spells are no save.

The first item though is greatly helped by tier 5 EK investment. Also, there's other good stuff in the EK tier 5 line too.

[DarkGospel]

I would lose a lot of damage or reduce my hp, fortification and crit bursts/aura to have enough points to enable using perma-tensers on this build also since I'll be unarmed so spellsword toggles are out of question and since I won't have a shield nor armor a lot of the other enhancements would be only useless fillers since they only give bonus while using a shield so really only Toughness, Improved Mage Armor (+10% total AC) and Improved Shield (+10 PRR) would be useful from low tier enhancements after that only arcane barrier, str and maybe crit acurracy/damage but I would have to spend on a lot of fillers before enabling perma-tensers even if I get all of those so basically I came there is 3 possibilities:

1. drop Mechanist and Inscribed Armor, well since there is already some spell failure reduction from EK it's not a problem I would only lose Mechanist from the racial three, now comes the problem I would have to completely drop Archmace and Knight of the Chalice so no more cheap displacement and goodbye to the extra SP from Archmage three and also no more Divine Might, remove the skeleton since it was only a filler for Improved Shrouding anyway and remove 2 ranks of spell crit neg so less crit aura/burst

2.the same as above but additionally giving up +1 con (so giving more hp than I could get back with EK) and part of fort from warforged three and Iron Fist from Shintao than I could keep the spell crit neg at max, the other option to keep max spell crit neg would be could completely give up Shintao losing a lot of PRR, AC and 10% offhand reducing the damage even more.

3. the most viable option would be losing Mechanist from WF three, completely losing Archmage so no cheap buffs nor extra sp and not giving up anything from any other three this would allow to while keeping max crit aura/burst and no reducing my hp nor damage I would also gain +10 PRR and +10% max AC, Light Armor Proficiency since it also removes the 5% arcane failure and an gain 15hp from EK and +10hp from WF three since points spent on EK also give 1% double strike each for a total of 12% double strike that add to the 10% offhand from Shintao.

Third one sees the best I would have to give up too much for perma-tenser it would work better on with a dual wield, two-handed or sword and board than unarmed it would probably be easier to take full advantage of EK with 12 wizard/6 fighter/2 ??, 12 wizard/6 ranger/2 ?? than with a 12 wizard/6 monk/2 ??...

[Therigar]

We have been trying something very similar the last week or so.

I had the chance to see, although not run with, wizard/ranger/-- builds when playing around with this idea. Might have been ValariusK's friends if they run on Orien.

Our concept was a heavy armor, shield, bastard sword/dwarven axe build focused on high AC and high PRR running in vampire form for the most part. We splashed paladin on one build and fighter on another rather than monk (your build) or ranger. But, it looks like the same basic thought process going on.

I gave the build a test run by using iconics for a quick build up to L15. The only downside I can see is in leveling at low levels since there isn't a lot of synergy early on.

The test builds were enough fun that I'm thinking of using the idea as a final build if I ever finish my completionist character.

One idea we've kicked around is splashing cleric. There is a tier 5 cleric enhancement that gives Divine Power. We've wondered if this might not be better than Tenser's as spell casting isn't affected. Tenser's gives alchemical bonuses to stats and DP enhancement bonuses will be overridden by gear, but for the difference in cool-down times on spell casting we wondered if it isn't worth trying.

I'm thinking of running one test build 9 wizard/6 fighter(paladin)/5 cleric to see. Cleric has the other advantage of some inflict wounds spells. Not sure if it is worth giving up the added arcane spells. OTOH, not convinced the arcane spells will be much value past L20.

[Tilten]

I've been running a version of this build. I ran it bladeforged (half because they're cool, half because i didnt want to 1-20) and I really do love it.

It seems to me that the dps feels very low. As far as punching goes, you are only working with 1.5[W] while most weapon wielders are working with 2 or 2.5. I'm thinking of doing an LR and reworking it for staves or if I can find a place to take the AP from, shortswords. the punching just feels a little small to me. I'm only 20 atm so we'll see what happens when I pick up OC and Master of Forms.