Ranking of classes by power for new players

[Bosco]

Not really much to say about this thread other than this.

1 Spend more time playing some of these classes you think are bad.
2 Figure out how you messed up the class or how your play style is making the class you play bad.
3 Come back after you figured out what you are doing wrong and delete this thread.

[druizzt]

how about you show me your math and ill shoot holes in it, lol.

don't think I can't, ask around.

I'm familiar with your posts. I've lurked for quite a long time. As I said, I will not simply take your word. However, if there is a good argument backed by good reasoning and/or evidence, the source does not matter.

[PermaBanned]

I'm sorry you feel like "were done here" but I have responded to each and every single question of yours concisely and distinctly.

Ok fine, I'll take the bait and come back to play some more...

You're taking out of context. Combat is the only important aspect of this game because it's the only thing that is remotely encompassing. DDO isn't like other MMOs where you can make a whole toon based on professions (crafting, cooking, weaponsmithing etc. etc.)

So you're completely dismissing out of hand anyone who's personal preferance is to build for stealth to avoid/minimize combat as much as possible? Or anyone who enjoys playing the support role of a buffer and or healer? Anyone who's more interested in exploration on easier (*gasp* Epic Normal) settings than they are in forum bragging about their Epic Elite no sweat Uberness?

You're right, they're all doing it wrong...

[druizzt]

Not really much to say about this thread other than this.

1 Spend more time playing some of these classes you think are bad.
2 Figure out how you messed up the class or how your play style is making the class you play bad.
3 Come back after you figured out what you are doing wrong and delete this thread.

If you disagree, you need to describe your own ranking and reasoning why your ranking is more accurate. I have dominated end game on all classes, but not all classes are equal. That is simply a fallacy.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Unlike the other list, this is based on builds PEOPLE ACTUALLY PLAY and not on just pure classes, which is riduclous since much less people play pure classes. This list is based on hundreds of hours of gameplay experience and discussion with extremely powerful veteran players.

Being based on builds people actually play, one would think you would take into consideration that the idea of ranking classes is pointless.
Ranking the power of a class doesn't help a new player at all when you follow up with "But it's only good if you splash these other classes..."
Also, this is all entirely based off your opinion, not facts... So, to quote the Dude, "That's like, your opinion... Or whatever, man..."

Rank 1 (God Tier) - Rank 1 is the best of the best. All these classes have tons of achievements in the achievement subforum.

Monk - Strong for obvious reasons, it's a pay 2 win class. Example builds: monkcher. Unarmed DPS.

Ironically, right off the bat you don't make any distinction about builds or class; Monkcher is any build that has 6 Monk levels and takes 10
KStars. Unarmed DPS is also not a build, it's just a type of DPS.

Fighter - Modern melee toons require a ton of feats and fighters get a ton of them. Combine with front loaded benefits from monk and classes. Example build: cetus (12/6/2 fighter/monk/paladin).

• Comment: You make little mention of survivability/self sufficiency, include a Completionist build [cetus] in your recommendations
• Answer: The cetus build certainly benefits from completionist but isn't required. The 12/6/2 split is arguably the strongest melee build in the game.

Cetus build requires +5 tomes, and at lest 3 Fighter past lives to be viable as an endgame EE build. stunning blow just will not perform as needed without the past lives, and you can not get the feats without the tomes. Neither of these things is available to a new player. His build also isn't the "best" melee build around, as that's an extremely subjective term to use. One could argue that the Zeus is just as good. Cetus is a good player, and his build works for him. It will not work for a newb in EE's though. At least not without significant changes made to it, at which point it's not really his build any longer.

Rank 2 - these classes are not necessarily bad, they're just mostly outclassed by god tier.

Ranger - High feat density (like fighter) but TWF generally performs worse than THF. Can make good archers as well, but outperformed by monkchers.

You make the same mistake here that you did with Monks in Rank 1, Rangers will not be outperformed by monkchers if they're being played as an archer by a powergamer at endgame. Because they will have 10Kstars and 6 monk levels. IE. they will be monkchers to an extent. Again Monkcher is not a build, or a class. It's a build concept.

Rangers should also be in the first tier as they've got everything you could possibly want and more as an endgame player. Stunning blow? You can make it work. Pure ranged combat? You can make that work. CC support class? You can make that work. Self heals, tons of skill points, free feats? You can have it all. Ranger is the single most versatile class in the game. And who says you can't have a THF Ranger? Odd, yes. but still very doable if that is what you want to play, and no less gimp that a TWF Ranger.

Rogue - High staff DPS with acrobat, but lacks the versatility in combat compared to fighter due to lack of feats and lack of cleave synergy.

Arguably this can be the highest DPS class in the entire game, not to mention a variety of playstyles and tactics. This is also a top tier class, if you know how to build them right. Again, you jump from ranking classes to builds, and confuse actual builds for build concepts. Stick to one.

Rank 3


Artificer - The juggernaut was once a very meta build, but it has fallen out of favor other strong self-healing options and DPS options.
While I agree with the placement of the arti class lower on the totem pole, The Jugg is still a very strong build in endgame content. It does rank lower than some other builds, but as a whole the Jugg build is still alive and strong.

Also, I don't agree that Paladin should be as low as you have it; Pyrene builds are still very powerful at what they do, and while they are not top tier DPS they are pretty much unkillable. As are a great many other Pali builds.

What I get from you post more than anything else is "These are the builds/classes I likeblahblahblah, I don't play anything other than FOTM builds, also DPS means everything." All in all it's a pretty pointless post.

[druizzt]

Ok fine, I'll take the bait and come back to play some more...


So you're completely dismissing out of hand anyone who's personal preferance is to build for stealth to avoid/minimize combat as much as possible? Or anyone who enjoys playing the support role of a buffer and or healer? Anyone who's more interested in exploration on easier (*gasp* Epic Normal) settings than they are in forum bragging about their Epic Elite no sweat Uberness?

I'm doing no such thing. Everyone is entitled to playing flavor builds. But a list ranking classes by power is obviously geared towards people who are interested in power (e.g., power gamers). Does that make sense?

[dragon2fire]

How did i miss you calling divines teir 3.



A ton of the solo accomplishments where done by fvs with wings your nuts if you think they are just a poor mans caster they do a lot more then that.


And for new players a divine is a great way to play a toon that can stay alive and learn.

[dragon2fire]

I'm doing no such thing. Everyone is entitled to playing flavor builds. But a list ranking classes by power is obviously geared towards people who are interested in power (e.g., power gamers). Does that make sense?

Please stop calling yourself a power gamer...that is making power gamers look bad.

[druizzt]

How did i miss you calling divines teir 3.



A ton of the solo accomplishments where done by fvs with wings your nuts if you think they are just a poor mans caster they do a lot more then that.


And for new players a divine is a great way to play a toon that can stay alive and learn.

Again, if you have disagreement you need to bare minimum provide your own ranking. You cannot have all classes in rank 1 and 2. Which classes would you move to rank 3 if you move divines up to rank 2?

Please stop calling yourself a power gamer...that is making power gamers look bad.

Please see my response above. I would prefer to have a discussion rather than just name calling and insults.

[Bosco]

If you disagree, you need to describe your own ranking and reasoning why your ranking is more accurate. I have dominated end game on all classes, but not all classes are equal. That is simply a fallacy.

This is the only comment I agree with so far. That you have dominated end game on all classes is a fallacy.

[PermaBanned]

...if there is a good argument backed by good reasoning and/or evidence, the source does not matter.

Lol you're presenting very few of the former and even less of the latter - and the quality of evidence almost always determined by the quality of it's source; "because I said so" ain't gonna cut it...

[druizzt]

also DPS means everything

Almost got the point. DPS is extremely important. All god tier builds should be able to do massive DPS in any situation while staying alive. That's another reason why rogues are not ranked as high as fighters, despite similar melee DPS.

[dragon2fire]

The person running the toon and what ed's they are using means a ton more then what class they are.

[druizzt]

The person running the toon and what ed's they are using means a ton more then what class they are.

I definitely can attest to that.

[01000010]

Not really much to say about this thread other than this.

1 Spend more time playing some of these classes you think are bad.
2 Figure out how you messed up the class or how your play style is making the class you play bad.
3 Come back after you figured out what you are doing wrong and delete this thread.

Good post, 100% agree. The most likely way for people to get confused on how strong a class/build is is to base it on single big numbers, crits are great, I love em, but they can be misleading. Layered dps is something few understand, group buffs that cant be easily umd/clickied are huge.

A max dps build does maybe 10-20% more dps than a non maxed build, when the build offers itself or group more than a 10-20% advantage from buffs or cc ow whatever its is as strong or stronger than the build with the pretty numbers.


druizzt : I cant take youre word either, you claim that math proves that sorcs and wiz outdps druids but wont show math? but expect me to? If all you do is lurk why should I trust your word? especially when your bias is obvious? Seems like a doublestandard to me.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'm willing to consider swapping druid for fighter. However, you will need to show proof in the form of achievements. All god tier classes should be capable of soloing extremely hard content.

So you're way of judging these classes and validating your idea of power is "These dominate the achievement forums"...
Worst.Thing.Ever.
You do realize that most of the posts in that subforum have nothing to do with class splits/builds and almost all to do with player skill right?
Easy button builds don't get you Solo EE completions of difficult quests/raids. Player skill, and player knowledge are the only thing that matter.

Almost got the point. DPS is extremely important. All god tier builds should be able to do massive DPS in any situation while staying alive. That's another reason why rogues are not ranked as high as fighters, despite similar melee DPS.

But... The build I referenced can do that. /EXACTLY/ that. The Zeus build has the exact same healing that the Cetus build does.
Even has similar HP, dodge, PRR, and a ton more Sneak attack than Cetus could ever dream of with his split.

By your own logic here Rogues should be God Tier, and you were wrong in your OP.
I believe you should change it to reflect this.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I think you are failing to take into account the way classes, races and EDs interact. Some combinations of these can make the game much easier, others make it more of a challenge.

Some builds are also very gear dependent, while others aren't. That should also be taken into account, particularly if the information in your thread is going to be useful to new players who may not have access to all that gear.

Some builds actually perform much more strongly in harder content than easier content due to how their abilities work.

Lastly, player skill and experience just cannot be overestimated. Every day I group with alarmingly ordinary "god" builds and they contribute very little, while I also see people on non-optimal builds really getting it done.

Thanks.

[PermaBanned]

If you disagree, you need to describe your own ranking and reasoning why your ranking is more accurate. I have dominated end game on all classes, but not all classes are equal. That is simply a fallacy.

If it wasn't sooooooo entertaining, I would say you really need to improve you're understanding of the difference between "class" and "build."

I'm also interested in hearing about how you "dominated end game" on the worst of the worst classes; you know, the ones you recommend not playing...

[Bosco]

I it wash sooooooo entertaining, I would say you really need to improve you're understanding of the difference between "class" and "build."

I'm also interested in hearing about how you "dominated end game" on the worst of the worst classes; you know, the ones you recommend not playing...

He hasn't. That is what is sad about this post. He is giving advice based on what he has read on the forums. Look at what he wrote concerning druids. They aren't even his opinions based on his own experiences. They are what he considers an accurate consensus based on what other "power gamers" have told him.

Seriously druizzt just delete this thread or stop responding to it. It will only get worse come sun up.

[PermaBanned]

He hasn't. That is what is sad about this post. He is giving advice based on what he has read on the forums. Look at what he wrote concerning druids. They aren't even his opinions based on his own experiences. They are what he considers an accurate consensus based on what other "power gamers" have told him.

But-but, he said:

I have dominated end game on all classes

...and surely a Do'urden can't be wrong!?