Player Character Balance

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

If it is a foregone conclusion that melee should never overtake arcane in term of dps and survivability, then it should be a courtesy to state so. If one had the early warning that melee is not viable in late game, one would not have wasted time to build a melee toon - whose sole purpose in party seem to be reduced to being just a spectator. There is nothing fun being a melee in DDO right now. Not when mobs are getting CC by ranged when tactical feats are useless. Not when melee dps is reduced by fortification the constant hassle to equip the right weapon to beat DR when arcane has spells to bypass spell resistance. Not when there is no need for a tank in raid when you can't even build a decent tank without godly gears. Not when you respond to the outcry of arcane DC but ignore the AC of melee. Not when arcane has more hitpoints than melee. Not when kiting has no real drawback. Not when melee has no real advantage. Not when reconstruct on arcane warforged is okay but considering nerfing melee BF SLA.

Do you think newcomer's perception of balance is the same as the veteran? Newcomer who tried DDO and perceive the imbalance would not stick around long to understand any late game mechanics. And if they do make it to late game, melee players would be quite shocked when they realise they should either TR to arcane or just leave the game.

Wow, just wow....

I play a lvl 28 human PURE light monk melee, handwraps only, cept the shuriken here and there to pull mobs.

EN/EH/EE doesnt matter to me, and its FUN AS ALL GET OUT. I LOVE PLAYING HIM.

Why all the hate people?

I dont care how powerfull anyone is, im here for entertainment and fun.

Thats a good enough reason for me to play a melee.

[BigErkyKid]

Wow, just wow....

I play a lvl 28 human PURE light monk melee, handwraps only, cept the shuriken here and there to pull mobs.

EN/EH/EE doesnt matter to me, and its FUN AS ALL GET OUT. I LOVE PLAYING HIM.

Why all the hate people?

I dont care how powerfull anyone is, im here for entertainment and fun.

Thats a good enough reason for me to play a melee.

I am sure he didn't mean it is no fun at all. But let's be honest, in heroics a well build and well geared sorc (and even a not so well prepared one but lead by a proficient player) will rock most of the content at a completely different speed and ease than most of the other classes. It isn't that much fun to see someone clearly outpower you constantly.

In epics, it is a completely different story. The supremacy is on "viable" ranged builds.

Now it is said time and again that we should not look at how others play, just focus on having fun. I don't think that's a very valid reasoning. For several reasons:

* Most people have a touch of pride when they play. I think it is reasonable not to want to be clearly inferior to other party members.

* Everyone wants to feel useful in some sense. Following a trail of corpses of someone who just speeds ahead of you and rains death is not fun.

* People cannot choose their team mates. Unless you have a very strong group of friends playing or a extremely active guild, you will find yourself puging frequently. Imposing on yourself having to avoid the "OP" builds will further limit your capacity to play.

* DnD (and hence DDO) was created around the concept of trade offs and the group complementing each other's strenghts. Again, everyone (assuming a reasonable build) should be "the best" at something.

If you build your character smartly, you shouldn't be completely outpowered by someone else in everything. That for me is the definition of OP. When two people doing the best they can with two different builds results in one person being superior in every relevant aspect to the game to the other.

Perhaps a smart build is superior to another in say 3 out of the 4 aspects. But it cannot be that a combination of character/classes completely beats another (again, assuming that both are well build).

[Thayion516]

What is absolutely Over Powered is the unintentional synergies between FotW+Manyshot+10kStar. Also Shirdadi counting on each arrow in Manyshot and each Magic Missle. These produce insane amounts of damage output that unbalances encounters, builds and group dynamics. You cannot tell me this is working as intended. The base mechanics of the game on many other scenarios do not follow these precedents.

Fix?: Make Adrenaline only count single arrows, not a single MS volley of 4 arrows doing 2200,1875,1780,2344 (and maybe a 9000+ Slaying arrow) all at the same time. IF this is intentional, I want all of my Melee attacks to get Adrenaline in my combat round sequence.

Fix?: make 10kStar not allow additional projectiles while Manyshot cooldown is negating Doubleshot.

Fix?: Make Shiradi count the first Arrow and the first Spell damage per spell cast.

On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit.

Melee only need a boost in 2 areas: Survivability and Crowd Control options. They already have a sustained DPS output. Give us some flexibility on the insane numbers needed for Stunning Blow/Fist/Trip to land. Who thought it would be a acceptable idea to require a 70+DC to land a stun? Also Add some more CC ED like Overwhelming Force, that's a great ability (non-twistable).

I know the AC/PPR changes are recent, however they are not what we need in Top-End combat. I like the PPR model but it is too small right now. And AC is still too limiting rolling inside a D20 with mobs that have +100 to hit you.

Fix?: Decrease the Curve on PPR and make it a little more flat. Make It scale off of Character Level as well as Actual PPR number. Give Armors More PPR or AC,, Hell Both! BTW .. a Monk should not have more AC/PPR then a Heavy Armored fighter. Hell, that don't even make any sense.

Also basically like 5 of the Epic Destiny Trees are unusable trash and alot of the abilities in the usable trees are poor to mediocre.. Refine the Destiny Trees to better fit play styles and builds.

On Multiclassing. Basically the reason its so easy to multiclass and gain more then you loose is the upper teirs of the class/Presige trees offer weak abilities. At Lv 12 I can have 90% of all a Prestige available to me. Make the 5th and 6th tier of prestige classes' core enhancements actually good to have and make Capstones better. Now this is Assuming that DDO wants to encourage more single class building.

However CAUTION: As with any changes to a MMORPG, I advise Targeted Slow Steady Changes that have been thoroughly thought through and tested. Followed by a brief reasoning for the changes.

Slow and Precise is orders of magnitude better then Fast and Sweeping.

[Dalsheel]

On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit.

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

[knockcocker]

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

How, by any stretch of the imagination, is that the definition of OP? The point was the only thing
that make it viable as a melee is the ability to self heal. As demonstrated for the last 3 or 4 pages,
without it there's no compelling reason to be a BF melee. You start off with -55% positive healing
- there's no sane way of making this work compared to a non-WF/BF character.

You take Reconstruct as it's your only viable healing option. Otherwise your BF is a caster and takes
the Reconstruct spell. All this will do, IMO, is force existing Cetus/Zeus type builds back into more
general purpose Juggernaut style builds.

WF and, if Reconstruct SLA is nerfed too hard, BF will not be viable as melee characters due to the
absence of healing amplification. You already don't see WF melee.

As a more general point on 'balance' rather than a specific rebuttal, perhaps we should have a system
where you select:

1) Archer
2) Fighter
3) Wizard
4) Tank

The Archer would be the fastest, they'd be ranged and would come with a green cosmetic armour kit.
The Fighter would be the best Melee DPS, they would come with a red cosmetic armour kit.
The Wizard would cast magic missile, they would come with a yellow cosmetic armour kit.
The tank would have the best AC and PRR or 'Armour' as it would be called, they would come with a
blue cosmetic armour kit.

One could pick various races but these would just function as skins - there'd be no material difference
in performance. This way you couldn't have people paying for this things to give them an advantage
over those who choose not to pay for it. We could even have an inbuilt handicap system whereby
if you're not performing as well as the people you are teamed with, they get penalties to damage
or movement speed. How does that sound?

Either have store bought (Shadowfell was a bought expansion) virtual services (including races) with
advantages over FTP supplied virtual services or don't. Don't change your mind nearly a year down
the line. If you want to have store bought services as purely cosmetic then fine but make that
clear. I'd wager that sales would not be nearly as good but what do I know?

There are good players and worse players. There are people who are excellent at spotting build
synergies and using them. These people should be rewarded for their skill or ingenuity not dragged
down to the level of someone who followed the pure class 'paths', didn't put any effort
at all into the character or build, and now feels inadequate.

[zwiebelring]

So, for you, all melee should be BF? I'd say that's the definition of OP right there.

Thanks for making it crystal clear.

That is not OP. Instead it is the sign of a big flaw in epic elite. Adjust epic elite and you might see less BF melees. Of course there is the endgame crowd of which not few players tend to look at mere stats than flavor and thus create whatever is the most efficient character. And if that happens to be a BF melee then so it is. But right now it seems that every melee is better of being a BF than... a dwarf for example.

[achitophel]

Remove feat requirement for dragonmarks, because who takes them anyway ?

Give halflings heal spell (using SP), same as bladeforged. Balanced!

[zwiebelring]

Remove feat requirement for dragonmarks, because who takes them anyway ?

I do. Mark of Passage and Mark of Shadow is very useful.

[fmalfeas]

You know, I see people complaining so much about Bladeforged, but where were all the complaints about Half-Elf Cleric Dilettante melees with stacks of heal scrolls?

It's just another way of self-healing. People have been obsessing over that for years.

[Dalsheel]

How, by any stretch of the imagination, is that the definition of OP?

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

[Thayion516]

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

Ill repeat myself then and explain to you because you seem to not understand singular syntax inside of a sentence.

"On Other stuff. The BF Reconstruct is one of the few things that keep melee in game IMO. It allows for some survivability as EE mobs punch you in the face for 200-400 hps a hit."

Notice how that is a plural statement. "..one of the few things.." meaning more then one? that "Clear enough" for you?

Versus how you twist it for personal bias. "..only race suitable for a melee build is BF.." a singular inclusive statement.

"When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options."

If your going to pick apart peoples posts (much lazier then actually building a solid case) and try and twist it to suite your own desires, at least keep it in context or back it up with some facts. Deal?

[knockcocker]

When people start thinking that the only race suitable for a melee build is BF it is a clear sign of a race being OP and overshadowing the others in character building options.

Clear enough?

I thoroughly disagree. It's currently the best and most effective self healing option for a melee character.
Other self healing options for other races do exist - i.e. it's not something exclusive to BF characters
though it's more accessible. I don't follow your argument that because something works, and is therefore
preferred, that it makes it 'overpowered'.

[Mryal]

The only reason why bladeforged reconstruct seems 'OP' is because its more effective than scroll healing, wich is what pretty much what most would be using for self healing.
This is because scroll healing suffers from a flawed, non suitable for DDO system called Concentration checks.
Just make all scroll casts automaticaly quickened and bladeforged is balanced.

Additionaly, there used to be other forms of self healing for melees called Healing ki and Lay on Hands.Healing ki might stil work on pure monks, but consider bringing it back to use character level instead of class level again?As for LOH, like i suggested earlier.Maybe its time to make LOH regenerate uses over time like smithe does.

[Timap]

A newish topic after all the BF posts, and in keeping with the upcoming changes to Divine Epic destinies.....

The vast majority of sorc savants at EE levels are either Fire or Air. A few are Ice, nearly none are Earth.
Why? Because of synergies with the FvS enhancements giving Fire boosts.

Taking 2-4 levels of FvS for AoV enhancements gives a Fire Savant:
1) Higher Fire/Force Crit %
2) Spell point return on Crit, aka the endless blue bar
3) Stacking boosts to Fire Spellpower via Scourge, up to +30
4) Minimal loss of caster levels despite dropping Sorc levels, due to "Intense Faith" topping up caster levels for Fire spells. Not that it matters, since the max caster levels of most commonly-used spells are low anyway.

The effects above have 2 effects :
1) Sorcs are pushed to Fire and to multiclass FvS. A multiclass Fire Savant has HIGHER spell power/crit profile than a pure, while they give up nearly nothing.
2) Sorcs are pushed to Shiradi ED. Because a higher number of crits means more returning spellpoints, Sorcs are incentivized to cast cheap spells with multiple chances to crit/proc, which is exactly the Shiradi modus operandi.

This trend of helping Fire Sorcs continues with the new Divine Crusader ED, which gives a Fire Savant "Flames of Purity" +30 Fire spell power as a Tier 2 ability. Contrast this with Draconic Incarnation "Draconic Heritage", giving the same +30 spell power, but at Tier 3. So once again, Fire Savant is clearly the superior savant. At this point, Fire Savants can achieve an elemental spellpower of around 40-60 above other savants. At end-game, this is about 10-15% more damage compared to other savants. Not game-breaking perhaps, but if you stack on the other advantages they get from FvS enhancements, (returning SP, boosts to Force crit for Ruin/Boulder Toss etc) it starts to add up.

While this balance issue is not as egregious as monkchers/BF etc., it does contribute towards the homogenization of Sorcs one sees at end-game. If this trend continues, with ever increasing bonuses to Fire for FvS, pretty soon, all Sorcs will be Fire savants and FvS splashed. And its not like the Fire bonuses are that good to FvS anyway. The FvS I meet at EE (and they are becoming very rare and probably need help) tend to be Light/Force casters. They would have been better served with more bonuses to Light and less to Fire.

Just food for thought.

[Eth]

Investment for BF Healing: One Red Slot Augment, 12 Points in Racial Tree (SLA + Repair Amp), Repair Skill

Investment for Off-Healing Classes (Bard, Pally, Ranger): One Red Augment Slot, 1-2 items for heal amp, 1 feat (emp. heal), Investment in several enhancement trees HealAmp/ Spellpower, Heal Skill


Example?
My ranger has 420 positive spellpower (this includes emp. heal) and my heal amp is:
10% ship
10% x 3 from enhancements
20% item (bracers)
30% item (gloves)

My CSW (at max. CL 15) hits anywhere from 325 to 450. Spellpoint cost: 32 (quicken+emp. heal). Cooldown 3 seconds.


Cocoon makes up for a lot, but costs a twist and is not class dependant.

[Vanhooger]

Just remove repair spell, not just the bladeforged sla. I dont say we shouldn't have self healing, cos I hate waiting for an healer type, but should be balanced, not a one click full health, that's what healer does. I think that cocoon and scrolling is way more balanced. You can still self heal on EE, but not that easily, need some skill. One click reconstruct doesn't need any skill. Maybe give WF/BF something like cocoon, that's it.

[Ancient]

If this trend continues, with ever increasing bonuses to Fire for FvS, pretty soon, all Sorcs will be Fire savants and FvS splashed.

I'm seeing more and more pure sorc water draconics.

[knockcocker]

Investment for BF Healing: One Red Slot Augment, 12 Points in Racial Tree (SLA + Repair Amp), Repair Skill

Investment for Off-Healing Classes (Bard, Pally, Ranger): One Red Augment Slot, 1-2 items for heal amp, 1 feat (emp. heal), Investment in several enhancement trees HealAmp/ Spellpower, Heal Skill


Example?
My ranger has 420 positive spellpower (this includes emp. heal) and my heal amp is:
10% ship
10% x 3 from enhancements
20% item (bracers)
30% item (gloves)

My CSW (at max. CL 15) hits anywhere from 325 to 450. Spellpoint cost: 32 (quicken+emp. heal). Cooldown 3 seconds.


Cocoon makes up for a lot, but costs a twist and is not class dependant.

What would your ranger CSW hit for if the race was BF?

[Ancient]

You know, I see people complaining so much about Bladeforged, but where were all the complaints about Half-Elf Cleric Dilettante melees with stacks of heal scrolls?

It's just another way of self-healing. People have been obsessing over that for years.

Half-elf got nerfed from orbit as part of the enhancement pass. Enhancement points are now precious and half-elf racials require a huge investment for tiny gains. Heal amp was proxy nerfed by making it cost more enhancement points to obtain, while at the same time the enhancement system lowered the penalty for multiclassing. Half-elf went from being a competitive choice for almost any build to one more in-game t estimate to why people do not trust turbine with the nerf bat.

As an example, prior to the enhancement pass... +5 to saves from pally dil meant something. Now that +5 still costs a big chunk of enhancement points but competes with +18 (or far more) to saves from a pally splash.

I have mixed feelings on bladeforged. I don't play my one bladeforged toon much, so the I'm-only-human part of me notices that some of the people with torches and pitchforks screaming for another (the 5th or 6th) round of shiradi nerfs play bladeforged. That said, I still think nerfs are the wrong way to go on this. Boosting dragonmarks and giving half-elves a make over would be the best way (IMO) to balance races.

[Kmnh]

My human melee heals itself for 672 with sf pots. Going bladeforged would make it get less healing on a longer cooldown.

My server, Cannith, has a decent EE PUG scene. Most of the issues I see melees having are related to DPS, not defenses. The ones who can kill mobs quickly, do it. The ones who can't, die. All defenses in the game won't help you survive 10 angry orcs attacking you for free for a minute. This is a good thing.