Player Character Balance

[Seikojin]

Small apologies for the formatting and wall of text...
I am not addressing destinies yet, I mainly wanted to touch the classes themselves since destinies can be a layer on top, adding customization to your already twerked out build.

Artificer
~As a class - Artificer, decent class, needs pet and melee options as well as dc boosts. Needs a pet tree.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcnotechnician - Boost the spellpower options. Give 1.5 - 2 per point in the tree. For each core, add +1 crit chance in addition to the line. Perhaps the last 3 cores, since this would push the class as the main class. For the capstone, the boosting to items is very tempting. However it should act like the item is in your spell arsenal and be affectable by other boosts (other dc boosting gear, etc). Or allow them to use metamagics at a greater consumption (dmg boosts use 3 charges per cast, all others use 2; stackable). Also the stat boost should be +4 and the spellcraft should be class level (so +20).
~~Enhancement tree: Battle Engineer - A lot is needed here. Offer martial proefficiency, and maybe some runearm discharge procs on melee attacks. Like proc burst your runearm charges on vorpals. Also various boosts to melee should be possible. like sla prr boosts, dodge boosts, perhaps more twf and thf options (doublestrike, offhand, glancing blows), and in the core abilities maybe offer some as well. So deep delving into this tree can offer some comparable melee like tempest, or thf glancing fun. Also there is little in regards to spellpower. I think points in this tree should offer spellpower as well. Perhaps 1/per points spent in tree, leaving arcnotechnician still ahead in spellpower, but enough to where delving into both trees is useful (like the design seems to be so far). Also a runearm as shielf enhancement is needed. Also I saw nothing for the pet here. This tree should have significant pet options. Like runearm discharge through pet, boosts to the pet, and synergies from the pet to host, similar to the Arcnotechnician does. The capstone needs significant boosting. +4 to stat, threat range increase by 1 or 2, increase the attachment enhancements by .5 (From all sources), in addition to the spellpower enhancements. This also should boost stablecharging past 3, to allow the full charge on the runearm.


Barbarian
~As a class - Barbarian, it is pretty melee tough, but not enough. Needs some tweaks to make each tree shine and focused.
~~Enhancement tree: Frenzied Berserker - looks like to be more hits and damage, but feedback pain. Needs boosts to hp more. Remove str while raging boost to add doublestrike boost while raging; in the cores. Capstone needs: set cooldown to 1 minute, increase threat as well with each stack, remove melee attack penalty, set h loss to 1 per stack (essentially alowing the barb to be in this fury for a long time).
~~Enhancement tree: Occult Slayer - this is for twf barbs. Needs less dr and more dodge (swap passive core dr to +1 dodge). remove rage duration boosts and add a while raging boost to bond; gain 2 instead of 1. Capstone needs: Boost force ward by 5% or add a stacking system where the ward increases as you save, until it hits 100%, then bursts an aoe heal or damage.
~~Enhancement tree: Ravager - the rager. Needs all the rage buffs into this tree. Str, con, duration, additional rages. Tie them to the cores as +1 use, str, con, dr, +10% longer. Capstone needs to proc free rages on crits/vorpals, or refill rages.

Bard
~As a class - Needs a lot of work. Until the third pre comes out (hopefully a dc CCer), the two trees need to offer focus and competitive power.
~~Enhancement tree: Spell Singer - Obviously the caster tree. Needs more song inspired dc, samage, crit chance, reduction costs (sing to empower), sla's (sonic spells), stronger healing through song, and until the third bard tree is revealed, caster song buffs added to typical melee buffs. Capstone needs add a buff to fascinate that attempts a slay sla (the other cores get their respective slay), but the slay effect increases fasinates cooldown to 30 seconds.
~~Enhancement tree: War Chanter - this is the melee tree. Skaldic rage needs to stack on top of rage, different bonus. Add +2/-2, no fatigue. Each core should add +1 to the str component of it. Spirit should also add +1 to hit. All the self buffs should passivly add half to its equal tier (lvl 1, 6, 12, 18, 20) song. So this way bards get a buff, and their songs offer more melee utility. The armorer and weapon group should be added to the core (armorer at core 1, without the failure boost, weapon group to core 2), have tier 5 have a penalty removal for their spell failure as well as adding a blur effect to their song (or enchant armor), and weapon groups slot should be replaced with +2 critical threat (and buff their songs to offer +1) Capstone: double the stat and hp bonus. Courage should add to hit, and a song proc of sonic defense (1d6 sonig damage when hit). Inspire heroics should last 30 seconds, boostable by enhancements.

Cleric
~As a class - pretty solid. Some minor tweaks boosting their core playstyles.
~~Enhancement tree: Divine Disciple - Each core ability should add 5 to light/dark spellpower. There should be dc boosters in the core abilities as well. +1 in each of the last 3. The tier 5 empowerment should do 1/2/3 for the spell level and cost 1 per. Capstone: Double stat bonus, spellpower, and 50 spellpoints. Also should have a threat reduction toggle.
~~Enhancement tree: Radient Servant - Solid healing tree. Perhaps more crit spell chance (add one to tier 1 and one to tier 5). The capstone should have double stat bonus.
~~Enhancement tree: Warpriest - The ac boost per core should be 3, smite should increase hate, sacred touch should double its prr bonus, and proc on ameleorating strike as a tier 5, 2 ap bonus. The capstone should double the stat bonus and add 10 prr.

Druid
~As a class - Solid, needs a pet friendly tree. Nothing in the trees boost pets, so maybe that until the third pre is there. Needs a pet tree.
~~Enhancement tree: Natures Warrior - The melee class. The tree is fairly strong, so nothing really is needed, save doubling the stat boost on the capstone.
~~Enhancement tree: Seasons Herald - The caster class. Pretty solid. The capstone is strong, needs double stat and maybe double dc.

Favored Soul
~As a class - Pretty solid class. Decent trees as well. Needs a tree that favors healing, similar to radiant servant.
~~Enhancement tree: Angel of Vengence - spell pen needs tiers (1/2/3), crown should grant <alignment> to targets attacks. Vengeful magic should do +1% crit @100% health, +1 DC and crit at 75%, +1 dc and crit again at 50%, and +50% crit chance (yes chance) at 25% or lower. The capstone needs double stat and offer different slas for blades, hunter, and deathless; to be in line with the offensive powers of the first three.
~~Enhancement tree: Warpriest - The ac boost per core should be 3, smite should increase hate, sacred touch should double its prr bonus, and proc on ameleorating strike as a tier 5, 2 ap bonus. The capstone should double the stat bonus and add 10 prr.

Fighter
~As a class - fairly solid after the first enhancement pass. But needs some tweaks. Perhaps a 3rd tree for partner tacticals.
~~Enhancement tree: Kensai - Dodge cap raises should be for all armor types. The tactical dc boosts should be +1 per higher. The weapon group specializations should also increase AC by 1 per specialization tier, or +2 per. Like warpriest, I think this tree needs core boosting. +3 ac and 5 prr per core. The capstone should be double stat and upgrade one cut to improved vorpal.
~~Enhancement tree: Stalwart Defender - Similar to warpriest, this needs some core boosting. +2 ac per core and +3 prr per core. Add a tier 5 ability to consider offhand weapon as a shield (if two weapon defense feat doesn't get modified to do so). Capstone needs double stat bonus and double dc boosting. The healing should be stronger, like 5-20 per hit.

Monk
~As a class - Very strong class, needs minor tweaking on its capstones and ninja spy needs more bluff abilities.
~~Enhancement tree: Henshin Mystic - A solid tree, the capstone should have double stat bonus, but everything else is good.
~~Enhancement tree: Ninja Spy - rogue based melee, Diversion and shadow double should throw a bluff against the enemy so you can sneak attack longer. The capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Shintao - healing based melee Solid as well, capstone needs double stat.

Paladin
~As a class - Needs a spell/sla tree that adds more spell utility. They could all use some deity tie-ins.
~~Enhancement tree: Knight of the Chalice - smiter. Maybe some defensive/heals from smite uses or turn uses. Needs turn and smite regen in the cores as well as lay on hands. Capstone needs double stat and a boosted smite attack.
~~Enhancement tree: Sacred Defender - similar to stalwart. Needs loh regen, smite regen, and similar core boosts like stalwart like mentioned above. Perhaps also the off hand weapon as shield ability as well. Capstone needs double stat, a threat gen increase, and a shield boost (enhancement boost up to +5).

Ranger
~As a class - Pretty solid class. Needs some moderate tweaks to help make them more flexible and viable. Doesn't offer much for using wild empathy to take control and make enemies pets.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcane Archer - arrow effects. The top tier elemental abilities should be aoe crit procs. Arcane archer enhancement should stack (push to paragon and epic), true strike should have a crit multiplier and threat range boost for higher ranks. The capstone should have double stat and add to your arrow DC's by +5-15 (I am guessing +5 per enhancement rank).
~~Enhancement tree: Deep Wood Sniper - favored enemy ranged power. Choosing melee based options should add to +1 or 2 to dodge each. The hit and damage bonus from favored enemy abilities should be double. The capstone should offer double stat, +2 sneak attack die, the range boosts, and also boost aimed shot to have +1 threat range, and double the hunters mercy and head shot hp amounts they deal.
~~Enhancement tree: Tempest - twf. Much like warpriest and the defensive melee trees, this one's core should add to AC, 2-3 each core. Improved defense should be double, whirling blades should also add +1 to dodge and cap per blades picked, and also be a requirement for dance of death, and dance of death should have a +1 threat range passive. The capstone should have double stat and remove the ac penalty from the growing storm and increase its stacks to 25.


Rogue
~As a class - Pretty solid, but not much combat defenses in the core tree. Mainly dc boosting needed.
~~Enhancement tree: Assassin - kill based. Sneak training should reduce threat by 2-5% each tier and be a requirement for knife specialization. More weapons should be added to the cores and spcialization (maybe all light weapons+some light exotics). The capstone should double stat and have a level drain clickie.
~~Enhancement tree: Mehcanic - ranged rogue build. Needs some more ranged sneak and pbs extensions, like 5 every core. Has some utility with building traps. Remove the half level dc and make it full level. The capstone should be double stat, boost improved traps dc by 4 (making it +5 to the dc's). and modify rapid fire to also include +1 threat range for all ranged attacks.
~~Enhancement tree: Theif Acrobat - staff builds! Pretty solid. Dc's should use full rogue level instead of half. Tumbler should increase dodge by 2, and cartwheel charge should as well. Capstone should have double stat and increase tactical dcs by 3-5.


Sorcerer
~As a class - Strong caster class, needs a small amount of defensive boosting.
~~Enhancement tree: Air Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Double the dodge bonus in the tree (not capstone). Capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Earth Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Earthen armor should add 5/10 ac instead of 1/2. Capstone needs double stat.
~~Enhancement tree: Fire Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Capstone needs double stat and modify fire guard to be fireshield at the same time (fire).
~~Enhancement tree: Water Savant - Needs dc boosting for your element in the cores. Capstone needs double stat. Should add an ice guard with ice version of fireshield to it.
~~Enhancement tree: Eldritch Knight - The cores should add +2 ac per core, the armor proficiencies should each add +2 dodge, and the capstone should have double stat, +1 threat range and multiplier as well.


Wizard
~As a class - Fairly solid. minor defensive boosts.
~~Enhancement tree: Arcane Master - Flexible casting. The capstone should add double stat, 10 spellcraft, and +2 to spell crit chance.
~~Enhancement tree: Eldritch Knight - The cores should add +2 ac per core, the armor proficiencies should each add +2 dodge, and the capstone should have double stat, +1 threat range and multiplier as well.
~~Enhancement tree: Pale Master - Fairly solid tree. Tier 5 shroud bonus for stats should eb double and increase necro dc's by 1. Capstone should have double stat and add +2 to necro dc's.


As you can see, I went all Oprah on this!

[azrael4h]

As a cleric who played back in 09, the lack of teamwork and plain rudeness of today's uber soloist builds is especially disheartening.

As a former Cleric player who started just inside of 2010, I see no difference in the lack of team work and plain sociopathic rudeness of today's elitist players vs the same players then. That is an entirely player-derived issue, and has nothing to do with DDO, solo builds, or anything else the devs or game has done. It is entirely the fault of those players themselves; they chose to be sociopaths.

[Ivan_Milic]

Do you play above casual?

I do only ee, and I see a lot of misses.
Keep trolling, just because you cant get more than 50 ac, doesnt mean its useless.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

[jskinner937]

i don't fully agree with this, maybe in heroic levels it can be considered overkill, in epics not so much. i find it's sometimes not easy to keep my bf pure arti ( yes i said pure) alive with 2 quickened recons, 1 the sla the other the spell, both set to those 2 little buttons above the scroll wheel for quick access. i could live with raising the min level of when it can be taken, but anything else would make bladeforged just as worthless as pallys, fighters ect.

It is overpowered on a large bluebar, but my melee completionist has less than 600sp with slots dedicated to Conor item, wizardry and increased wisdom for that extra mana. He can reconstruct half his hit points on a non-crit for a grand total of 23 times. 2 hits on EE = repair totaling 46 hits. Now that does not consider Conop procs (which is rare in new content anyways with dmg types ). I find myself shrinking a lot or drinking mana pots in EE raids still.

To me this not OP on a melee. But just a nicer option. BF AA (soul bow = endless repairs) or Arcane (2 reconstructs and no cha penalty) is OP.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

It didn't help that you handed out Pinions and Antipodes for free in those raid boxes. What other build can successfully use *two different* CITW named weapons like a monkcher? Again, game development has *rewarded* and *encouraged* the proliferation of certain builds. Don't punish the rational choices of smart players given what the game is and gives them.

[rcmcneil]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.

Furyshot: must be built up, 30s duration, 5 minute cooldown. Very high damage output. Main way of achieving the high output is to start kiting a bunch of 8000hp mobs around until you line them up, then use it. Drop down to typical archer DPS for 5 minutes afterward, occasional Manyshot/10k Stars in between furyshot, long cooldown.

Bladeforged: Race purchased with the specific intention of using built-in racial enhancements & past life bonuses. With the exception of a Dragonmarked halfling, a race with its own ability to self-heal without using potions or scrolls. This finally makes some classes & class combos usable without having to wait around for a healer to join a group with the sole role of being a nannybot. While it is nice having classes like Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, & Bard around for healing, some decent & well overdue self-reliance is finally in the game. Yes, one must pay for it. The entire purpose of purchasing something is to have access to something that those who don't pay for it won't have.

Overpowered is:
-when an ability in a quest is so powerful as to render all other similar abilities useless, with little to no investment on the part of the player.

Overpowered is not:
-when an ability in a quest makes it completable in a reasonable amount of time.
-when an ability that was previously unavailable to a class or race is now available.
-when a specific combination of abilities with a short duration but intense requirement of build, coordination, timing, and gear come together.

For nearly a decade, casters have had the following abilities:
-kill something with a single button.
-survive a quest while killing everything without a healbot patching them up every 6 seconds.
-deal large damage & instakill at a distance.

Other classes, builds, multiclasses, & races have just recently been giving these abilities. That does not make them overpowered, that makes them finally up to par with casting abilities.

[Scrootaype]

Players min/max based on the content, difficulty, and goals of the game. There are myriad players with their own individual preferences, play times, styles, and goals. But there is only one DDO and it has evolved into a game that players are simply evolving with themselves. The common denominator is the game and how end game quests and raids make certain play styles easier to survive and succeed compared to others.

Rather than blame the play style preferences and logical choices players are making because of how the game has evolved, consider changing aspects of the quests, mobs, and damage itself so that a limited number of build types and play styles significantly exceed others.

I remember when archers complained and complained about how dps and survivability were a joke compared to melee. Well that has been reversed some with epic destinies and other toon design changes. But of course, now the other side grumbles. The game is forcing imbalances, if any, by forcing logical choices about min/maxing toons.

Stop looking to punish people for being innovative and clever. Look in the mirror instead.

Changes to guild mechanics are also to blame. Letting guilds get huge with far less decay consequences has pushed everything into channels. The LFM system is broken for the typical player. Thus being able to solo is even more important for many now in order to do all of the heroic and epic grinding the system now encourages. THUS further incentive of the Monkcher build in its variations.

[Seikojin]

Looking at the destinies; I think if the base classes and their enhancements were changed or tweaked like my Oprah post above here, I don't think Destinies will need much, if any tweaking, save fixes for components not working properly.

Like I have said early on; I don't think running monk/pally should be the end game build. I think it is working as written and makes how underwhelming pure class and other mix and matches are, and have been for a long time.

Regarding shidari; I do think it is op only in that it is not chaotic and beneficial enough for the enemies. Maybe the more you call on it, the higher the chance it procs something negative? I dunno.

[CeltEireson]

Njerfing it at all kills the race, so don't pussyfoot around and half-measures. go full-****** and kill it.

I'll tell ya what . . . remove the caster-level limit on CSW/CCW so a bard/ranger/pally of the fleshie variety can hjeal themselves for some more and it would be fine.

And while we're at it . . . adjust the Tempest and KoTC trees to be closer to Kensai in damage dealing. Since the main advantage of ranger/pally was the self-hjeals and fighters now can get that one the BF race there really isn't ANY reason these two classes should be lower DPS.

So you're solution to the problem is that anyone who wants to play a fighter has to be BF? Seems a lil extreme and kind of contrary to what I assume the devs are trying to achieve - better balance and diversity of race/class .

[sephiroth1084]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.

Furyshot: must be built up, 30s duration, 5 minute cooldown. Very high damage output. Main way of achieving the high output is to start kiting a bunch of 8000hp mobs around until you line them up, then use it. Drop down to typical archer DPS for 5 minutes afterward, occasional Manyshot/10k Stars in between furyshot, long cooldown.

Bladeforged: Race purchased with the specific intention of using built-in racial enhancements & past life bonuses. With the exception of a Dragonmarked halfling, a race with its own ability to self-heal without using potions or scrolls. This finally makes some classes & class combos usable without having to wait around for a healer to join a group with the sole role of being a nannybot. While it is nice having classes like Favored Soul, Cleric, Druid, & Bard around for healing, some decent & well overdue self-reliance is finally in the game. Yes, one must pay for it. The entire purpose of purchasing something is to have access to something that those who don't pay for it won't have.

Overpowered is:
-when an ability in a quest is so powerful as to render all other similar abilities useless, with little to no investment on the part of the player.

Overpowered is not:
-when an ability in a quest makes it completable in a reasonable amount of time.
-when an ability that was previously unavailable to a class or race is now available.
-when a specific combination of abilities with a short duration but intense requirement of build, coordination, timing, and gear come together.

For nearly a decade, casters have had the following abilities:
-kill something with a single button.
-survive a quest while killing everything without a healbot patching them up every 6 seconds.
-deal large damage & instakill at a distance.

Other classes, builds, multiclasses, & races have just recently been giving these abilities. That does not make them overpowered, that makes them finally up to par with casting abilities.

While essentially all true, that doesn't mean that Master's Blitz doesn't need to be tweaked downward a bit. Sure, it may require some build-up, and requires some maintenance to keep going, it also can be kept up through the entirety of many quests, and in a way that nothing else really can. It also discourages grouping to a degree. I've two-manned some EE quests with a pretty good Blitzer where, on my well-geared monkcher, I died several times, and he didn't at all, not quite soloing the quest (because he, while Blitzing, managed to also Raise me so I could help out). Sure, casters have been doing stuff like that for a long time, but a lot of their power has been checked (Wail got severely nerfed, for example), and they aren't quite at that same power level in EE content on the whole.

The problem with Furyshot is that it can both function as a de facto Wail of the Banshee and the best boss DPS burst in the game by miles. I don't think it's so bad that it needs to be disabled, but something should be done (I maintain that removing the Adrenaline procs from additional arrows on a Manyshot/10K Stars volley, and from enemies hit after the first when using IPS is the way to go).

[sephiroth1084]

Looking at the destinies; I think if the base classes and their enhancements were changed or tweaked like my Oprah post above here, I don't think Destinies will need much, if any tweaking, save fixes for components not working properly.

Like I have said early on; I don't think running monk/pally should be the end game build. I think it is working as written and makes how underwhelming pure class and other mix and matches are, and have been for a long time.

Regarding shidari; I do think it is op only in that it is not chaotic and beneficial enough for the enemies. Maybe the more you call on it, the higher the chance it procs something negative? I dunno.

Eh. I didn't agree with most of the proposals you made. And changing base classes doesn't address some of the major problems in epic destinies. Plus, base classes have more locked into them, since they still draw heavily, in one way or another, from their forebears in D&D 3.5, while the destinies are essentially untethered to anything but the whims of the developers at Turbine. Besides, the differences between destinies can be larger than those between classes by quite a bit. The difference between Defender paladin and Kensei fighter is less than the difference between Master's Blitz and everything in Unyielding Sentinel, and that's without accounting for all the other stuff that Legendary Dreadnaught offers.

The ways the balance against the automatic monk 2/paladin 2 splashes we see, are to lower the emphasis on Reflex saves (fewer end game threats that target Reflex, and fewer Reflex-save abilities that will kill you even if you make the save), and by cutting back a bit on the DCs we have to make on our saves across the board. Also, sticking some more attractive items in class levels 19 and 20, and the capstone enhancements.

The problem with Shiradi (used by casters) is that it requires so little investment, and is so much more effective than most other options available to casters in tougher content--spamming Magic Missiles is cheap, especially with the SLA available, and the Shiradi procs cover your damage and crowd control needs, while monster HP and saves largely outpace even the big booms we get from Draconic Incarnation, let alone our standard 1-9 spells, meaning casters have to blow through SP to get through a fraction of the content the Shiradi caster manages. In this case, I think Shiradi needs a very slight nerf in regards to casters, while DI and Magister (and Fatesinger) need some major buffs to make them competitive. Also, of course, there need to be some adjustments on the monsters' end as well.

[CeltEireson]

It is overpowered on a large bluebar, but my melee completionist has less than 600sp with slots dedicated to Conor item, wizardry and increased wisdom for that extra mana. He can reconstruct half his hit points on a non-crit for a grand total of 23 times. 2 hits on EE = repair totaling 46 hits. Now that does not consider Conop procs (which is rare in new content anyways with dmg types ). I find myself shrinking a lot or drinking mana pots in EE raids still.

To me this not OP on a melee. But just a nicer option. BF AA (soul bow = endless repairs) or Arcane (2 reconstructs and no cha penalty) is OP.

Which is the problem - how do you nerf an ability that may not be overpowered in melee, but is (possibly) for ranged damage? And it may become overpowered on the melee side anyway if they choose to implement effective damage reduction for melee classes that use heavy armour /shields.

I don't agree with the whole 'bait and switch' by the way - if they had implemented the class the way it is and almost immediately nerfed it then you could possibly argue that, but given that its being done a long time after they were implemented and as part of a complete review of balance I don't think the term's justified. Besides as has been pointed out everything in an MMO changes sooner or later and VIPs could ask for their money back every time one of their characters lost something due to a revamp. Having said that it would probably make good business sense to give those who specifically bought the class (ass opposed to those who got it as part of buying the expansion pack early) some kind of compensation.

If they're going to have self healing for some races/classes/enhancement trees/ epic destinies combinations then they really need to put something, if not necessarily as effective, for all of them otherwise you're still going to end up with preferred/accepted combinations. Like wizards primarily being either warforged/BF or fleshy palemasters; or multiclassing to get decent UMD and enhancements to up benefit from scrolls, to name a couple.

Yes, its possible to use fate slots to slot in some form of healing, but not exactly a big help to a character who's just reached level 20 for the first time and just starting to do epic destinies if the destiny they start in doesn't have access to self-healing.

They've put limits on the effectiveness of in-game bought potions (aside from SF pots which come with big penalties and also needs a fair bit of work to get) by restricting the max to cure serious potions at the minimum caster level, where there's no reason it shouldn't be possible to get cure critical potions at caster level 20 or even heal potions (though I know this probably doesn't follow D&D) certainly has been done in the single player computer games. Of course then they wouldn't get to sell all the improved potions that they have in the store Or even do what one of the Neverwinter Nights crpgs did - make heal a class skill for all classes and allow for healing kits of varying level - higher the level/skill the more damage healed, not useful for in-combat healing but good for healing between fights i.e. it can be interrupted and takes a few seconds to work. Of course, neither of those suggestions will work unless the devs improve damage mitigation for medium/heavy armour users who melee.

[Sarramark]

I would like to point out that there is an inbalance between Paladins of the Silver Flame and those of other religions. The level 6 feat, Silver Flame Exorcism, only counts cleric levels for the DC, making it ineffective for a Silver Flame Paladin vs a Silver Flame Cleric. The level 6 feats of the other religions are equally effective for their respective Paladins and Clerics. Also, the favoired weapons of all the other faiths can be used with Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attacks, but the Silver Flame's favored weapon is the Longbow.
To fix these two issues, please change the DC of Silver Flame Exorcism to count Paladin levels, and add a passive ability to the Follower of the Silver Flame feat : Bow Smite, allowing Longbows to make a Smite Evil / Exalted Smite attack. I would also like to propose adding something similiar to Conjure Arrows as an active ability to either Child of the Silver Flame or Beloved of the Silver Flame.

[Dalsheel]

So you're solution to the problem is that anyone who wants to play a fighter has to be BF? Seems a lil extreme and kind of contrary to what I assume the devs are trying to achieve - better balance and diversity of race/class .

this.

+1

[pHo3nix]

I'm curious, to those who say don't nerf Bladeforged because I want what I paid for, how many of you agree that the Reconstruct SLA is too powerful? Would you accept a reduced SLA, such as lowering the amp or giving it a slightly longer cool down?

Would you also accept a slight nerf to it, if it improves the game long term from everyone's perspective. Would you not get more enjoyment out of an entire well-balanced game rather than one ability. This of course assumes the game gets balanced well. It may also be that balancing involves upgrading things and not toning things down.

A slightly nerf would mean that you are always better off going human or halfling with DM, cause you can use way more things to self-heal. BF melees only got the SLA: for what i care they could make it ML20, lvling in heroic with scrolls and pots is quite easy, reconstruct just let you zerg a little faster, but it has to stay as it is now for it to be useful in EE.

Turbine made the mistake to let people TR into Iconics and to let Iconics be anything: if BF could only be lvl 20 1st life (or even 3xCompletionist, paladins suck anyway ) Paladin the Recon SLA would be good but nothing exceptional. When you can get the recon SLA on 3xcompletionist with any kind of build it clearly becomes OP and that's why I and many other people bought BF.

So either kill the BF race and refund people that bought it or let it stay as it is and try to make other options almost as good.

[Ancient]

I do only ee, and I see a lot of misses.
Keep trolling, just because you cant get more than 50 ac, doesnt mean its useless.

I see a lot of them too, in fact I might put the number as high as 5%....

[BOgre]

Your problem isnt with the low end here. Not at all. Its the high end. Having tons of reasons to do all kinds of crazy splash builds is great and good for the game. And I say that as a staunch pure-class kinda guy. The problem is, theres almost no reason NOT to do it. Its the Core abilities. The upper ones (sometimes level 12, often level 18, almost every single level 20 one) require a ton of levels, and even worse a ton of enhancement points. They often make little sense with the class or sometimes the tree itself. And in some cases, they dont even work. Warchanter for example, the 6th Core ability lasts 12 seconds, not even a full action boost duration. Knight of the Chalice, the 6th core ability doesnt provide the good dr bypass it should. And dont even get me started on Barbarian. On top of a T5 ability which requires Improved Trip (which requires combat expertise, which you cant even use when raging even if you somehow wanted to not power attack, and takes int 13 to boot, or basically the total opposite of barbarian anything), the Frenzy Berserker 6th core kills you so fast for such little damage how would it ever encourage anyone to take 20 barb? And while the Occult Slayer 6th core might (its actually pretty awesome to have SR of 70+, if not game-changing), the SR bugs out when your con changes (like, anytime different rage effects go on or off, so often) and the various Bond effects require resetting your counter every quest to work correctly which makes playing the tree annoying at best (really, just cut down the number of bond stacks needed to like 30: sitting out on your prestige enhancement abilities for an action boost cooldown seems more than enough balance for something as common as a weapon swap... its like making a weapon change cause an action boost cooldown, thats punitive enough, 2+ minutes is just cruel).

So true.

I avoid fotm builds like the plauge. Well to be honest, I focus my play time on one build, my Tempest. Have a look at tier4 and tier5 in that tree. Pitiful. A melee focused TWF Ranger is better off wasting 2 feats on Cleave/Great Cleave just to get resets on Momentum Swing and Lay Waste than he is spending AP in his own Enhancement Tree. It's infuriating.

Thousand Cuts should have a 20 second duration (currently 6s!!!), and Bleed Them Out should have a 10/25/50% chance to reset 1000cuts' cooldown (currently no way to reset the punishing 2minutes).

Dance of Death should have a 20 second duration (currently 6s!!!), and The Growing Storm should have a 10/25/50% chance to reset DoD's cooldown. OR each attack while under the effect of The Growing Storm should have 1% chance to reset DoD for the duration of tGS (currently no way to reset the evil 1minute).

Dance of Death itself should have a chance to reset Growing Storm as well, the same way Lay Waste resets its reset-machine Momentum Swing.

Core 5 Tempest should lower the cooldown on Dance of Death and Thousand Cuts and Growing Storm by 25%. Core 6 Tempest should lower the cooldown by an additional 25% for a total of 50%.

That's at a minimum to make Tempest at least competitive, if not "Balanced"

[Ivan_Milic]

It didn't help that you handed out Pinions and Antipodes for free in those raid boxes. What other build can successfully use *two different* CITW named weapons like a monkcher? Again, game development has *rewarded* and *encouraged* the proliferation of certain builds. Don't punish the rational choices of smart players given what the game is and gives them.

I dont think you know what monkchers are, no monkcher will use antipode.

[Ivan_Milic]

Since this seems to be the main subject of this thread, let's examine just exactly what "overpowered" is.

Master's Blitz: must be built up, then maintained, in order to achieve very high damage output. Delay killing something for too long, & you get to start over. maximum damage output still generally requires several hits on one trash mob in EE to kill.

What you forgot to mention is:doesnt work in most quests that have portals or doors, or anything that has loading screen.
The only quest it works that has loading screen in between is Beyond The Rift.