Player Character Balance

[patang01]

I seriously can not believe Reconstruct on Bladeforged is considered over powered

I don't get it myself. It's a trickle. Compared to my fleshie ranger with twisted cocoon and con op item that can heal himself indefinitely. And with tons of heal amp that meager tick will heal him full before the temp HP runs out.
When did self healing become OP and something Turbine think they need to fix? Seriously? We bought these iconic races because they had special abilities and now this is on the same order as a Monkcher?

[Hathorian]

Actually, Varg didn't say they would be nerfed. He said they would be looked into down the road, just not right now.

The only one of those I think should be nerfed is 10k stars. Rather see it work with shuriken than with arrows, but if it stays as is than it shouldn't work with manyshot or a decrease in effectability.

He specifically singled out those 3 things to look at so you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are going to be nerfed....

[fool101]

I've never played a BF, but to me the premise seems simple. Is having a limited self heal that over powered?

I agree with others who have stated that instead, make healing more accessible to non-constructs (via removing penalties to SF pots, or introducing better cure pots). This would balance things out more than a nerf to BF IMO, especially since BF is a pay to access class in which many have paid already.

[Ivan_Milic]

That would be 20 between shrines (assuming all math is correct).

My main uses Heal Scrolls for big heals, and I probably use about 20 for an average quest. And I pay plat for those 20.


Also, if I remember correctly, that could be 20 reconstructs in a single fight.

Is it OP?
Not sure.

One could argue that high UMD builds can carry several hundred heal scrolls into a quest and get better healing.

But BF don't spend any plat and do not even have to unequip their weapon.


Just seems very powerful to me.

And I am seeing so many BF builds that others must think so too.



Anyway, my non-expert opinion on this one is simply a small nerf to increase cooldown so that they cannot fire these off in rapid succession.

But I am not hard set in that opinion.



If they do nerf this, I hope they also look at adding more ways for melees of other (all) races to self heal.
Not to the point of being equal at self healing, but to help them slightly and give more options.
(I would really like to see Heal and Repair skills to be useful to melee guys for self healing. Maybe add Heal/repair to potions effectiveness.)

It has 6 sec cd, in that time ee mobs can kill you 3 times.
YOu need to slot repair sp, you need to put points in repair, if you want it to heal you for over 400 hp.
Maybe it seems powerful to you because mostly good and experienced players with great gear are using it, get a new player to use it and see how well they will do.

[Qhualor]

He specifically singled out those 3 things to look at so you are kidding yourself if you don't think they are going to be nerfed....

I'm well aware of what it could mean someday, but we can only go by what the man says for now. I do get the impression character balance is something they really are trying to fix, so when the day comes that they ask for input on it than we can cry nerf or fair change.

[Pandir]

I'm well aware of what it could mean someday, but we can only go by what the man says for now. I do get the impression character balance is something they really are trying to fix, so when the day comes that they ask for input on it than we can cry nerf or fair change.

Even if it's nerfs i'm pretty sure everyone will have a few month enjoying things in it's current form before anything changes.

[danlan]

Realistically speaking, I can almost predict that if Dev determines to?

- Nerf EE

- Nerf Furyshot moncher

- Nerf BF's recon

- But leave Shiradi Arcane as is.

People will immediately switch to play a Shiradi arcane then, because although it might be a little weaker than furyshot moncher in some aspect (single target burst dps), it is still so much better than any other options out there. What is the point of playing other options except for flavors?

It will continue to severely threaten the player character balance and thus the health of the game.

[elvesunited]

To sum up:
1. Fury and ranged is not OP. Manyshot with fury is. Simply make adrenaline only effect 1 arrow (or 2 with doubleshot)
2. 10k stars could be shurikens only, but then add some more enhancements to monk trees that benefits them. As is now there are very few enhancements that apply to shuriken.
3. Bladeforged SLA is fine. The real issue lies in meele viability without tons of instant heals.
4. Buff bards and fate singer, add some SLAs as well.
5. Offer more synergy in each tree with all 3 combat styles. Too narrowly focused trees are bad.
6. Buff DC casting and buff "old spells". Base caster level off character level (you do with NPCs) as remove damage scaling caps. SLAs and shiradi procs should not be the ONLY viable way to do spell dps.
7. Nerf monsters and buff meele damage mitigation (not just for plate, monk tanks exist too).
8. ED core enhancements that increase caster level should increase them for ALL casters (not just 1 type).

1. I'd say slay arrow + adrenaline is OP. Slay arrow is meant to be increased by critical hits. But when combined with adrenaline +400% you start getting out of control multiplication of damage. ( 5000+ damage per arrow )

2. Zen archery and bow using Monk Archers is a game role-playing concept. Take away 10K stars from bow and the monk archer will have nothing to spend their Ki on unless they became shuriken users which would invalidate most of their elf/arcane archer enhancements and force a radical character redesign on them. Besides the shuikicannon is a questionable build at best due to a near complete lack of high level shuriken items.

Here's an idea. Create the "Improved manyshot" feat ( manyshot without the doubleshot penalty ) which would given free to rangers at level 15 but purchasable as a general feat as long as the character does not have "10K stars". ( for the non-ranger, non-monk archer builds such as the Kensai archer )

3. The self-healing bladeforged is another game concept. Nerfing it presents a problem as I think bladeforged are pretty resistant to standard healing.

4. I think that Bard is getting a whole new enhancement tree soon. ( Swashbuckler ) Hopefully they'll buff up the other enhancement trees to match it.

5. Unless you're a narrowly focuses build in which case diluting their narrowly focused tree hurts them. It's very hard to mess with an enhancement or ED tree without hurting some build somewhere. ( Unless the ability you're taking out is pretty much universally considered to be useless ) For example the Divine Crusader enhancement is going to hurt my Paladin tank by taking Endless Turns out of Unyielding Sentinel. ( Not sure what to make of Divine Crusader yet. From what I've read, not that impressed. )

6. Perhaps raising the maximum level of spells can be tied to the core abilities of the ARcane ED lines. ( or divine ED for divine casters and even the primal line for Druid casters ) That would help casters but not the Shiradi arcane users. ( which many consider OP or at the very least an already strong build concept )

7. I'd buff Melee damage mitigation but not nerf monsters. Buffing melee helps some characters who are having competivity problems. Nerfing monsters helps everyone including those who might not need the help.

8. Nah I'm okay with the way it is. Let's not penalize folks for experimenting outside their normal sphere. But it doesn't need to further encouraged either.

[patang01]

The whole, "...but a lot of people bought Bladeforged for the reconstruct and will be very upset at a nerf!" is kind of humorous to me. Isn't that a great point of evidence for the fact that it's in the pantheon of abilities currently good enough to warp the whole metagame, and has earned some scrutiny?

Personally I'd avoid fallacies as a way to prove that something is bad. I think the evidence should be about if the whole metagame is in fact warped by BF reconstruct as suppose to assuming it is indeed warping. I barely use my pure BF Paladin and that's because despite cheap reconstruct incoming melee damage cannot be effectively mitigated. But you could easily see the result of warping of content by how many casters, rangers and monk there are in most groups and raids.

Lots.

See, the only thing the reconstruct does is to allow the few who use them survive better, but it's just a survival tool - the DPS problem is one of null damage mitigation other than evasion and range. AC and PRR is currently worthless. So one of the few ways melee can survive is by going blitz and then use reconstruct. All of these are the result of the tilt from balanced content to ineffective damage mitigation. And since Turbine noticed that more people went ranged and evasion they tilted even more content towards going for them as suppose to re-balance the damage mitigation for melee.

Thus you have no barbs in the game since they can't heal themselves when raged, you have a few fighter types blitzing and mostly a mix of ranged, monk and arcanes. The BF reconstruct is not the problem, it never was - it's just a very meager survival tool in a increase of high damage critter damage against ineffective mitigation.

Plus, and this is true - if Turbine decide to nerf this ability they are in fact nerfing the major selling point with that iconic race. And that is bait and switch.
You can take this to the bank; if Turbine decide to make capstones better, they re-balance the top destiny features to be better over all for their respective roles and take a serious look at good melee mitigation, you will see a re-distribution of what the players will play to get there. That has always been the case. But until they do I will continue to use my ranged toons because that's the absolute best way for them to avoid a significant amount of damage.

[elvesunited]

To sum up:
1. Fury and ranged is not OP. Manyshot with fury is. Simply make adrenaline only effect 1 arrow (or 2 with doubleshot)
2. 10k stars could be shurikens only, but then add some more enhancements to monk trees that benefits them. As is now there are very few enhancements that apply to shuriken.
3. Bladeforged SLA is fine. The real issue lies in meele viability without tons of instant heals.
4. Buff bards and fate singer, add some SLAs as well.
5. Offer more synergy in each tree with all 3 combat styles. Too narrowly focused trees are bad.
6. Buff DC casting and buff "old spells". Base caster level off character level (you do with NPCs) as remove damage scaling caps. SLAs and shiradi procs should not be the ONLY viable way to do spell dps.
7. Nerf monsters and buff meele damage mitigation (not just for plate, monk tanks exist too).
8. ED core enhancements that increase caster level should increase them for ALL casters (not just 1 type).

1. I'd say slay arrow + adrenaline is OP. Slay arrow is meant to be increased by critical hits. But when combined with adrenaline +400% you start getting out of control multiplication of damage. ( 5000+ damage per arrow )

2. Zen archery and bow using Monk Archers is a game role-playing concept. Take away 10K stars from bow and the monk archer will have nothing to spend their Ki on unless they became shuriken users which would invalidate most of their elf/arcane archer enhancements and force a radical character redesign on them. Besides the shuikicannon is a questionable build at best due to a near complete lack of high level shuriken items.

Here's an idea. Create the "Improved manyshot" feat ( manyshot without the doubleshot penalty ) which would given free to rangers at level 15 but purchasable as a general feat as long as the character does not have "10K stars". ( for the non-ranger, non-monk archer builds such as the Kensai archer )

3. The self-healing bladeforged is another game concept. Nerfing it presents a problem as I think bladeforged are pretty resistant to standard healing.

4. I think that Bard is getting a whole new enhancement tree soon. ( Swashbuckler ) Hopefully they'll buff up the other enhancement trees to match it.

5. Unless you're a narrowly focuses build in which case diluting their narrowly focused tree hurts them. It's very hard to mess with an enhancement or ED tree without hurting some build somewhere. ( Unless the ability you're taking out is pretty much universally considered to be useless ) For example the Divine Crusader ED is going to hurt my Paladin tank by taking Endless Turns out of Unyielding Sentinel. ( Not sure what to make of Divine Crusader yet. From what I've read, not that impressed. )

6. Perhaps raising the maximum level of spells can be tied to the core abilities of the ARcane ED lines. ( or divine ED for divine casters and even the primal line for Druid casters ) That would help casters but not the Shiradi arcane users. ( which many consider OP or at the very least an already strong build concept )

7. I'd buff Melee damage mitigation but not nerf monsters. Buffing melee helps some characters who are having competivity problems. Nerfing monsters helps everyone including those who might not need the help.

8. Nah I'm okay with the way it is. Let's not penalize folks for experimenting outside their normal sphere. But it doesn't need to further encouraged either.

[pHo3nix]

Also...though I hear from some good melee players that this is crazy-good, there's something more to consider for this item in particular:

Turbine has taken a lot of people's money for access to the Bladeforged Iconic, in large part specifically due to this crazy-good ability. Even if it would OTHERWISE be a prime candidate for nerfing, you might want to weigh in how much of a bait-and-switch sort of vibe you want to put out.

Nobody bought specifically bought Furyshot or 10K Stars the way they bought Bladeforged.

^This.

It's too late to nerf it now. BF is not even cheap and if it wasn't for the Reconstruct i would have saved the TP and never bought it. Bait-and-switch is never fun, but when you do it with things that costs real money it's really annoying.

[Dalsheel]

Sledgehammer Nerfs incoming:

• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

So I finally build a BF monkcher and almost right away you say you are going to nerf them. That is very disappointing.

So you build a toon that utilizes all 3 of the things that people report as OP in this thread... Cool!

[Teh_Troll]

Regarding BF reconstruct . . . any nerfs to it kill the race.

So I say KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!! Just give everyone a FREE LR+20 WITH race change and refund the TP.

It's the best option.

[count_spicoli]

TBH, im loving BF Paladin. i don't feel like my character is OP in the slightest, but he is also not geared out for the class like i would do if BF Paladin was his last life. the only difference i can see between a fleshy Paladin and a BF Paladin is BF get a little more hp back in repairs than a fleshy would in a CSW spell. i am actually considering reincarnating my WF Kensei Fighter into BF Paladin. my hope is that the devs take into consideration how any nerf to BF reconstruct could actually hurt melees if its a universal change, but that depends if/when and how much of a nerf.

Here in lies the problem. Why would you ever consider not being bladeforged? You can self heal immediately and no race offers that. At level 15 you can immediately begin quicken reconstruct yourself. Comparing it to coccon? Seriously? That is a precious twist spot and can't be used until 20! Heal scrolls? Try using a heat scroll when something is smashing your face in or archers are sticking g you or god forbid you have a dot. My shirardi bladeforged is so ridiculous my 6 year old daughter can play it in epic elite and kick butt. With reconstruct spell and sla on different timers you are invincible add in reconstruct scrolls for no sp and now 30% repair amp the race affords you it is ridonculous. Right now if you are not bladeforged monkchers or shirardi especially a wizzy FvS combo I don't want you in my ee group. You will essentially be a drain. Especially any pure class you will be denied. Sorry it's just where the game is at right now.

[pHo3nix]

Regarding BF reconstruct . . . any nerfs to it kill the race.

So I say KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!!! Just give everyone a FREE LR+20 WITH race change and refund the TP.

It's the best option.

Yep, there would be no reason to be a BF if they nerf its reconstruct.

I would be ok with the TP refund and the free LR+20

[knockcocker]

I play a BF 14 wiz/4 fvs/2 monk shiradi, with 18 past lives and 9 epic lives and best geared.

Erm, do you think you might have lost a little objectivity here?

[knockcocker]

Here in lies the problem. Why would you ever consider not being bladeforged? You can self heal immediately and no race offers that. At level 15 you can immediately begin quicken reconstruct yourself. Comparing it to coccon? Seriously? That is a precious twist spot and can't be used until 20! Heal scrolls? Try using a heat scroll when something is smashing your face in or archers are sticking g you or god forbid you have a dot. My shirardi bladeforged is so ridiculous my 6 year old daughter can play it in epic elite and kick butt. With reconstruct spell and sla on different timers you are invincible add in reconstruct scrolls for no sp and now 30% repair amp the race affords you it is ridonculous. Right now if you are not bladeforged monkchers or shirardi especially a wizzy FvS combo I don't want you in my ee group. You will essentially be a drain. Especially any pure class you will be denied. Sorry it's just where the game is at right now.

Whatever...

[Scraap]

Well, might as well be the one to open the can of worms: Should SLAs be able to take metas for no additional cost in the first place (any slas. and yes that'd sting me too)?

[Roland_D'Arabel]

As for bladeforged... any self heal worse than recon is useless even before epic, and people paid for this. Real dollars. Changing it now would kinda be a jerk move. That said, its a bit too good due to the lack of comparable options, not because its OP itself. Fvs can self heal, and theyre not on the list (random example). Point is, if other melee could get Potions of Cure Epic Wounds no one would notice this. The solution? Make some Silver Flame sized potions which A) dont debuff you and B) stack to 100 like regular pots and C) are just on a vendor so we can all get them to use, and things would be fine. Make them ML21 so its epic only if need be, or require some favor, or something. But recognize that nerfing bladeforged just shifts the focus back to things like casters self-recon and results in a lot of angry customers. We can already heal, so let us heal. The potions can have a 12s cd, so twice as long as recon, and (I think, going off memory) 4x as long as SF since they dont debuff. No new abilities gained, nothing we can do we couldnt do before, but now people got options and everyones happy.

None of those three need serious nerfs, just a fix to a 17 month old mistake, a pass to bring doubleshot up to par, and getting over adding heals to players who already have heals. Easy problems.


I hope so. Even when its weary feedback. Cheers.

Snipped the above quoted for space.

This is an excellent post, totally on target. Pure melee classes have been forced to abandon their play style due to lack of damage mitigation, OP EE mobs and lack of self-healing. This is why I abandoned my barbarian after 7 years (along with the poorly implemented barbarian enhancement trees. Improved trip and combat expertise, seriously?).

BF reconstruct is not OP at all. Amping repair spell power is very difficult in this game. Aside from the elite best geared players, the average player will only have around 300 spell points (not counting pure pally's, we all know they aren't part of this discussion) and SLA reconstruct for around 250 hp. There is no talk about nerfing cocoon even though anyone can twist it for self healing.

Why is this even under discussion?

[patang01]

Here in lies the problem. Why would you ever consider not being bladeforged? You can self heal immediately and no race offers that. At level 15 you can immediately begin quicken reconstruct yourself. Comparing it to coccon? Seriously? That is a precious twist spot and can't be used until 20! Heal scrolls? Try using a heat scroll when something is smashing your face in or archers are sticking g you or god forbid you have a dot. My shirardi bladeforged is so ridiculous my 6 year old daughter can play it in epic elite and kick butt. With reconstruct spell and sla on different timers you are invincible add in reconstruct scrolls for no sp and now 30% repair amp the race affords you it is ridonculous. Right now if you are not bladeforged monkchers or shirardi especially a wizzy FvS combo I don't want you in my ee group. You will essentially be a drain. Especially any pure class you will be denied. Sorry it's just where the game is at right now.

I never had any issues self healing my ranger before he got cocoon. At all. All it took was lots of heal amp and cheap cure serious boosted by heal amp and con op. Never ran out of SP, never had an issue surviving. Every time I hit with a potion or spell I got something like 100 SP back. Then with further heal amp items after 20 and destinies I've never been more self reliant. In any content. If the cocoon is not enough then go back to spells.

My paladin on the other hand can barely stay alive without jumping out of combat. That's because with EE melee he gets hit for 300-400 in damage then have to stay out of sight healing himself multiple times with 300 something reconstructs which the cool down going. The main way of surviving is either using fury hits to knock the assailants down or hit with massive damage. Or having a blitz going. No amount of healing will change the fact that close quarter brawling is by far the worst way to do things in DDO right now (at least in EE).

I got 3 constructs right now and the rest of my toons are fleshies. And I'm not using my barb horc kensei, or human hybrid tank because they have no way to self heal well or mitigate damage. If Turbine make damage mitigation a reality I will definitely use them.

Your experience with the ridonculous BF is so different from mine. I absolutely slay with my ranger and sorc - It's easy and it do moderately well with my BF paladin and Arti but not because of the reconstructs.

Seems like the real issue here is something like the BF Monkcher, personally I think they should make a Monk uncentered for using reconstructs. I mean there are some really huge negatives for use Silver Flame potions, they heal well but you lose a lot of stats for a long time. Make Monks uncentered for 15-20 seconds for using reconstructs since that's not Ki healing. And remove 10k for arrows. It should be for shurikens only. A few simple things like that will make it more in balance than being able to use several feats and enhancements together to make gold standard super toons like that.