Player Character Balance

[Qhualor]

Well, I haven't used it much; but when I played around with it it looked like it cost next to nothing SP wise (so has almost limitless uses) and had a cooldown so short that it seemed you could just spam Reconstruct endlessly IMO.


Correct me if I am wrong.
I rolled one up to experiment with, but didn't really play him.

is that casters or melees or both? i admit that i am only on my 2nd BF life and doing it as a pure paladin, so right now Communion of Scribing costs 25 sp. i know there are ways to reduce the cost, but not sure how melees could get the cost so low to be next to nothing. if this is the case for casters than i can see why reconstruct would be on the radar than. big difference with melees needing to repair themselves more often since they are in the middle of fights and the sp pool is by far greater for casters than melees.

[Portalcat]

why is BF reconstruct even on the radar?

It falls along the lines of not having to make a survivability versus power trade-off.



Perhaps the problem is as much that the reconstruct SLA is too good as it is that many of the best FOTM archetypes are based off a core of class and destiny synergies that is independent of and agnostic to race. Either reconstruct SLA needs a nerf or race needs to matter more such that there's reason not to just slap any high DPS engine on a bladeforged frame.

[Ivan_Milic]

Well, I haven't used it much; but when I played around with it it looked like it cost next to nothing SP wise (so has almost limitless uses) and had a cooldown so short that it seemed you could just spam Reconstruct endlessly IMO.


Correct me if I am wrong.
I rolled one up to experiment with, but didn't really play him.

Bf melees get around 400-500 sp, that is enough for 20 reconstructs, is that a lot?

[oradafu]

Bf melees get around 400-500 sp, that is enough for 20 reconstructs, is that a lot?

By BF Melee, would that be something like a pure Paladin or a Paladin that splashes only non-blue bars? If so, how much of that 400 SP is used to buff them selves since those paladin spells aren't exactly long term nor cheap?

[Ivan_Milic]

By BF Melee, would that be something like a pure Paladin or a Paladin that splashes only non-blue bars? If so, how much of that 400 SP is used to buff them selves since those paladin spells aren't exactly long term nor cheap?

Splashes, mainly centered kensei.

[Dalsheel]

Bf melees get around 400-500 sp, that is enough for 20 reconstructs, is that a lot?

Yes it is. Let's be honest here and not try to fool ourselves. With a ton of sp clickies available and sp pots you will never run out of sp. NEVER.

[Qhualor]

By BF Melee, would that be something like a pure Paladin or a Paladin that splashes only non-blue bars? If so, how much of that 400 SP is used to buff them selves since those paladin spells aren't exactly long term nor cheap?

my current TR on a pure BF Paladin with a magi item and dumped wisdom can have an sp pool of 800-900 without even trying by level 28. there are 3 Paladin short term spells that are useful that cost 50 sp total and with extend can last for over 5 minutes. i don't know about other Paladin players, but i only use 4-5 buff spells if i don't get buffed by a divine. he wears a con op item as well so its helpful, but still runs out of sp after fights gone sideways. it can go fast. usually though if all goes well, i can make it with a couple hundred sp leftover at least. i know im doing it wrong, but it takes a few hits on my repair spells to fill my red bar back to full.

[Vint]

Yes it is. Let's be honest here and not try to fool ourselves. With a ton of sp clickies available and sp pots you will never run out of sp. NEVER.

This is irrelevant. It is blatantly bait/switch. Can you honestly tell me that the
1. Devs who made it
2. The ML’ers who tested it
3. The people on Lama who tested it

None of these people thought that it may have been OP up until now? C’mon. Pure BS.

They can nerf this for all I care, but it is just another reason why my wallet will stay closed.

[Lifespawn]

No one is "focusing on nerfing multi-classing". If you got that impression from the writeup, perhaps we were not clear enough.

some form of either lowering the cost to open higher tiers or being able to have 2 tier 5 enhancments from different trees would really go a long way to making pure classes more powerful.

[pasterqb]

The fact that people think Magister isn't the worst destiny in the game is a joke. It has 2 things worth a ****. Seriously?

[Portalcat]

No one is "focusing on nerfing multi-classing". If you got that impression from the writeup, perhaps we were not clear enough.

I got the exact opposite impression, to the point that I was disappointed not to see anything mentioned about the weakness of capstones and the lack of incentives to ever be pure. I could cut off a few fingers and still count the number of top-level pure-class builds on one hand.

[vengfarga]

[QUOTE=



rally speaking we aim to provide some synergies in character building. It’s OK for certain combos to be more than the sum of their parts, as long as there are lots of different synergies that don’t end up too far apart from each other in terms of fun and viability.



[U]Multiclassing and Enhancement Trees[/U]
The enhancement pass in Update 19 certainly affected multiclassing. As a matter of learning from history, here’s some reasons why, which we were mostly aware of at the time:
• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing, but decided that was an acceptable cost. Even with this, during the enhancement pass there was a great deal of outcry. This is something we could make incremental changes to affect, but each change would probably make some subset of players upset, and we’re in no hurry to revamp everything and move everything around. (Giant tangential discussion for another time or place: “Class” enhancement trees aren’t a simple solution to this.)
• Number of enhancement trees: A major part of the original design (intended to present choice as well as help balance multiclass builds vs. pure builds) was the limit of 3 enhancement trees. Yes, you could still make a Henshin Mystic + Thief Acrobat, but you’d have to make meaningful choices and give things up to get them. Multiclassing is still clearly an increase in power (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3), but not as much as it is with 6 class trees. Essentially, we changed this due to feedback at the time, knowing it would help lead to the rise of multiclass characters. This is one of those places where we had a vision but it simply wasn’t accepted by the community at-large (which is not to place the blame on anyone.) We try to strike a balance between design considerations and the desires of the people who play our game, so we changed this to 6 class trees.
• Class Level Requirements: The U18 Enhancements largely required 6/12/18 class levels to get “the good stuff”. Both internally amongst the design team and publicly amongst the players, during the Enhancement pass a great variety of class level restrictions were proposed for the 5-tier trees we have now. These included some very strong calls for 1/3/6/12/28 (similar to the old system), all the way down to not requiring any class levels at all (essentially just requiring access to the tree). I’ll take personal responsibility for fighting for the 1/2/3/4/5 system we have today, which was for the goal of meaningful choices along with interesting possible builds. Instead of nearly every build being 20 or 18/2 or maybe 12/6/2, there’s a much wider variety of builds that players consider and actually take. Along with the third Core enhancement requiring level 6, there’s at least some real reasons to want anywhere from 1-6 class levels at least. And there are definitely some builds that splash 2/3/4 levels for specific enhancements and synergies. While these synergies do provide extra power, they also provide a much wider array of possible choices while still being choices (compared to only requiring 1 level of a class to access the entire tree). There’s still some debate that perhaps 1/2/3/4/5 is too generous, but this isn’t something we’d change lightly.


=QUOTE]

So ... you're saying we did this to ourselves, huh? Almost certainly true. Angry reactions in one direction will always tip something else into view!

[Holleyz]

I got the exact opposite impression, to the point that I was disappointed not to see anything mentioned about the weakness of capstones and the lack of incentives to ever be pure. I could cut off a few fingers and still count the number of top-level pure-class builds on one hand.

totally agree.

[Aeryyn]

*snip*

The benefit of 20 levels of a single class should be equal to the benefit of splashing in other classes - currently that is not the case.

I would say the benefit of a pure class character should be at least equal to a splash or two of this or that, if not better.

And thanks for the message, Varg.

[oradafu]

This is irrelevant. It is blatantly bait/switch. Can you honestly tell me that the
1. Devs who made it
2. The ML’ers who tested it
3. The people on Lama who tested it

None of these people thought that it may have been OP up until now? C’mon. Pure BS.

They can nerf this for all I care, but it is just another reason why my wallet will stay closed.

Pretty much. Since MOTU, Bladeforged and Monster Manual 3 are the only things I consider worth purchasing. Without the Recon for BF, WF would once again turn into a trash race like WF since the Devs won't fix Docents or make decent new ones.

[oradafu]

I got the exact opposite impression, to the point that I was disappointed not to see anything mentioned about the weakness of capstones and the lack of incentives to ever be pure. I could cut off a few fingers and still count the number of top-level pure-class builds on one hand.

The Devs stated back in Shadowfail beta that Pure Classes were in a good place and didn't need any boosting. I too don't see much from the Dev response that will really boost the capstones and level 18 core abilities.

[Sam1313]

Edited

I would say the benefit of a pure class character should be at least equal to a splash or two of this or that, if not better.

Agreed. This is a game. Keyword here is GAME. A game is played for enjoyment and relaxation.

When the game reaches a point that it is no longer enjoyable or relaxing then something is very wrong. In this case the very few who is playing a pure build is sitting at their computer cussing, getting angry, and punching a few holes in their screens because their pure builds cannot compete or keep up with those multi-classed Hybrids wich their pure builds helped to create.

I don't feel anything needs downgraded or "Nerfed" but I do feel there are classes that needs a boost. Most people have agreed that the epic monsters hit too hard. But at the same time you have some that say the game is too easy?

[Recared]

Rather than focusing on nerfing multi-classing, you should consider boosting the capstone. Perhaps giving every class a free feat @ level 20 of that class. Additionally, the capstone enhancement available only if you have level 20 of that class should be as good as splashing in a few levels of others classes
- 2 levels of monk gives 2 feats + evasion
- 2 levels of paladin gives you amazing saves
- 2-4 levels of favored soul gives you sp + great crits
- etc., etc., etc.

The benefit of 20 levels of a single class should be equal to the benefit of splashing in other classes - currently that is not the case.

You are right on what those splashes give. But then the natural question is: why not multiclass then? It is an option open to all classes. Why not use it if it is so good? Moreover, why should the 20 levels of a single class be equal to the benefit of splashing?? Sure, Bard 20 should get also +30 saves, +1000 spell points, +700% damage, ranged aoe instadeath spell, and instant quest completion button.

Funny that "Rather than focusing on nerfing multi-classing, you should consider boosting the capstone" line D Dialectics, implied premise recourse: "After stealing the money, did you spend it?" asked to someone who did not steal it.

Again, multiclass is not the cause of any imbalance, it is precisely (!!) multiclassing that brings balance to the classes, to the game. It actually creates character balance (!!). Also this are the core rules of this game. Multiclass options have already always been taken into account for DnD and DDO game construction. Always. No, it is not the "it has always been like this" argument, it is the "we play basketball and the ball is spherical, not squared, and it is a core rule which won't change" argument. You have n heroic levels, and you can take levels from max 3 classes. Choose wisely. Plan ahead.

The thread should have been named maybe "character and playstyle balance". I applaud the synthesis and the conclusions given by the devs on all the discussion. I feel they are listening very carefully and making a monumental effort in building and developing this deep, vast, complex, multidimensional and incredibly entertaining world of DDO.



As a side note... no so on the side... Most probably changes will be coming that will make melees quiet happy... -> I may be wrong, but if tough armor melee base damage income greatly reduced (hey, I'm for its reduction) + divine crusader extraordinary healing and dps synergies + gigantic dps potential of wyrm weapons on the proper hands takes place... We may be soon looking at a scenario where the playstyle ranged casting dps might become incredibly inferior (specially if people starts reading the chapter "Excelling at melee" from the "The path to legend" (I think it was called) book from grandmaster Troll (I recommend it, totally worth every dollar)).

PS: Anyway, the bacon changes will render this discussion obsolete. It should be nerfed as soon as possible!

[redspecter23]

I don't feel anything needs downgraded or "Nerfed" but I do feel there are classes that needs a boost. Most people have agreed that the epic monsters hit too hard. But at the same time you have some that say the game is too easy?

I do agree that epic melee mobs hit way too hard, but I also believe that certain elements of the EE endgame are too easy. Both can actually be true. Metagame choices and builds change due to the powerful nature of melee mobs. Builds like shiradi (or most any caster really) and monkcher are powerful builds yes, but they are more powerful because of the metagame push toward characters that don't have to engage in melee combat to deal damage. Metagaming builds make the game easier because that's what they do. They work within the advantages and disadvantages of the system. However, this doesn't mean that EE melee mob damage is balanced at all. It just pushes more and more players to take advantage of the system and not get anywhere close to those mobs if at all possible.

So you can have a game that is "too easy" with elements that are unbalanced (high melee mob damage). Your powerful builds are the ones that build to avoid the overpowered elements and are still effective. It doesn't make those overpowered elements balanced by having to metagame builds to avoid them.

[Propane]

The Devs can get the data to go along with these results - show us!

How many pure vs mulit charactors?
How many pure of each class?
What are the top 5 most popular builds -

Balance = hard choices - the above numbers will show what is under powered - under used....