Player Character Balance

[BigErkyKid]

You started your post with the stated purpose of summarizing the consensus of the threads... then spent more lines on your own non-consensus solutions.

You slipped no consensus disclaimers right by your word solution, then went on with bullet point after bullet point with no disclaimer.

As far as your two points.

1. A melee build can exceed a ranged build, but it is far far tougher to build, equip and play. Is there a ranged build that is even in the ball park for the EE devils assault time challenge from Zeus's build thread?

2. Pure classes do need a boost, but making a blanket generalization is overstating the case. One example, the pale-master threads get a lot of attention and are almost always pure class builds. Pure sorc builds are also getting some attention again. Confusing popularity with balance is not a good foundation for design changes.

I agree melee and pure classes do need a boost. No, I do not agree the game needs to be redesigned over that difference. Heck no, I don't think your hireling idea is even remotely close to the right solution.

1. So, according to you a ranged build is NOT more powerful than a non ranged one (for the large majority of quests) right now. Interesting. So far everything points in the opposite direction, like the fact that monkchers are soloing raids like fot on ee and I don't seem to find any melee being capable of that. But I am sure you will point out to a large number of quests where melees have an upper hand, other than devils assault, of course.

2. I only stated multiclass>pure and you seem to agree. Again, I did include parenthesis mentioning wizzards...I guess it should have been in big red letters, like my multiple warnings of lack of consensus over solutions, etc.

[Ancient]

I took issue with a simplistic A > B format. Your response to that is a simplistic overstatement of what I said.

[Daze]

1. So, according to you a ranged build is NOT more powerful than a non ranged one (for the large majority of quests) right now. Interesting. So far everything points in the opposite direction, like the fact that monkchers are soloing raids like fot on ee and I don't seem to find any melee being capable of that. But I am sure you will point out to a large number of quests where melees have an upper hand, other than devils assault, of course.

2. I only stated multiclass>pure and you seem to agree. Again, I did include parenthesis mentioning wizzards...I guess it should have been in big red letters, like my multiple warnings of lack of consensus over solutions, etc.

Consensus is something that isn't any of our places to speak to. Laying yourself out for martyrdom on the altar of big red letters neednt be mentioned ....

Ancient has a valid point being that melee CAN be more powerful than ranged builds. Provided they have a means of defending themselves from the up close and personal contact with the beasts they are attempting to slay.

As I have stated previously ... melee vs ranged and multiclass vs pure ARE balance issues.

I would prefer to discuss them rather than argue over specific quests or what the consensus is.

[azrael4h]

I'll ignore the bit about soloing since it's not relevant to the discussion.

1) Melee vs ranged balance: While in Heroics and EN/EH it's not as big an issue, EE it is. The problem stems from mobs doing 200-400 points of damage, AC being made worthless deliberately by Turbine, PRR giving diminishing returns, making it only worthwhile to build up to a point, and the only actually effective damage mitigation methods being move yo buttocks, and displacement/incorporeal forms. Which either mean an entire inventory page or two of GS clickies, Dragonmarked Elf, or Bard/Wiz/Sorc levels for displacement, and 6 levels of Monk for Incorp.

This leads to the preponderance of builds going ranged, since there's simply no way to survive in close, toe-to-toe. Plus Monk 6 for the Incorporeal, though Monk gives a lot of low-hanging fruit on top of that (3d6 SA damage, +3-4 in one stat, usually CON in Earth, which also grants +1 to crit multiplier, etc)

My suggestion is three-fold: Rework AC and to-hit bonuses again, so that a) AC matters again, and b) to-hit matters again. Second, reduce incoming damage, mostly on EE. Even on EH, as a guildy found out the other night running a pre-U3 28 point Wizard build designed around PnP and NWN and not DDO's min-max design, there needs to be some reduction. A Wizard with 500 hp should not be one shotted, even if it's gimp by today's standards. Third, defensive trees, when you get around to adding viable ones (meaning not the current garbage Defender trees that are only worth a brief splash into right now), should offer some means of incorporeal like Monk can get.

2) Tanking sucks: This has been an issue since time immemorial. 95% of the content in DDO does not need a traditional MMO Tank. This is a good thing, as forcing requirements such as tank-dps-healer is bad design 101. It is multiplied exponentially in DDO, with it's more freeform character building. The issue is again, three fold: S&B tanks lack the means to hold aggro, either dps or threat, vs a straight dps character, they lack any real defensive advantage over a dps build, and because they lack dps and gain nothing but nothing in return, they pretty much are a waste of a party slot. While I wouldn't kick anyone over being a S&B Paladin or Fighter, no more than I kicked any Paladins back in the day when I led raids, or Rangers post U5, when they sucked so horribly and no one wanted one around because they were 'not dps', I would plan on a longer completion time vs say, a squishy sorc who dies every three mobs killed. Or maybe a Bard who does nothing but buff and summon monster VI.

Suggestion: Rework the Defender trees to be viable. Rework Shield Bash to grant automatic attack procs. No one shield bashes, because it sucks. No point to it. So make it an offhand proc like TWF. Defender stances should no longer be tied to S&B, so they'll actually be useful and not worthless. Add in similar incorporeal clickies to both, and maybe even perma-blur like in Warpriest. More dps and more threat. Then they'll be welcome, and not a hindrance, in most parties.

3) Class issues: In general, capstones need to be improved. Currently, for most builds you gain more by splashing 1 or 2 levels of something else. Even casters now can arguably gain more, either from low-hanging temp sp procs in FvS, Spell power, crit chances, etc... This is ignoring big-daddy evasion, which is only useful if you can get a viable (over 9000!) reflex for it. However, I do not advocate for shifting things around to discourage multi-classing. Build variety is DDO's strongest point, even post NGE/U19. We should give pure-class a reason to do so; we already have reasons to multi-class and that should not change. Just the balance between them.

(note I am only touching on a few of the weakest classes here. I feel Monk, Ranger save the AA capstone which sucks horribly, Rogue, and most casters are in a good spot.)

a) Bard: First off, Bard's songs need to be reworked to be made more useful. First off, they should be their own type, stacking with all else. Call it song bonus, call it Stevie Ray Vaughan bonus, call it Muddy Waters bonus, I don't care. (They should also wish they was a catfish. So all the good lookin' women would so' nuff be after them). Second, the values need to scale into the Commoner levels post 20.

Secondly, they need a third tree, built around sonic damage spells. I'd say grant them the Wall of Sound that was promised pre-NGE, and other sonic spells. A AoE damage song, as well, on this tree, doing sonic damage and scaling into epics. Another CC-based stunning song, also AoE. Call it "Dazed and Confused".

Thirdly, Warchanter needs a complete rework.

b) Barbarian: Hulk Smash! Barbarian remains the one class I have never played to 20 in DDO. So I'll be briefer with this than others.

Barbarian is a glass cannon archetype. Because of the obscene damage numbers, and their inherent lack of defense due to having only hp as their defensive measure, Barbarians are likely the first to die. When healing groups, I groan inwardly at the sight of a Barbarian joining a group because a) their dps is not significantly higher than anyone else's, meaning they add nothing over a straight fighter comparably geared, b) they will take three times the damage of anyone else, and c) the class attracts the worst players in DDO's history. Of any class I will decline based on class alone, it is Barbarian. Even pre U14, when they were not significantly behind defensively, and had a significant edge in dps over anyone else.

With that in mind, I would suggest giving them an AoE trip and AoE Stun somewhat like the Sweeping Strike in Acrobat/Henshin. Likewise a screaming warcry to freeze foes in place with fear. CC is defense! One tree, Occult Slayer, could even grant Evasion as a capstone ability. Ravager should get an insta-kill, at level 12. Tear Out Their Hearts! DC 10+ Barb level (not character!) + CON mod. The level 18 version has them eating said heart for a quick, dirty, and disgusting heal. They should also be able to dual-wield halflings with no penalty. On top of these, their DR should also be converted to 5PRR per point, giving them an inherent 35 PRR. Not much, but it's a start. They can even be granted perma-blur, on the basis that they're in such a frothing, demented rage that they're shaking so hard that they've become blurred as a result. Finally, maybe give a toggleable Vampiric Weapons (similar to Venom Blades or whatever from Assassin and Drow). This should be real healing, not worthless temp garbage that no one sane uses.

c) Paladin: The poor Paladin. Even when 'endgame' was nothing by evil outsiders, they were barely better than Battle Cleric melee dps, with basically no benefit to a group at all. Heck, IIRC a Ranger bested them against EO with that as a FE, and had more FE's to boot. In today's game Paladin is only good for a 2 level dip for a saves bonus, and then only if you've got the CHA for it. To top it off, every other class has at least one tree that is viable. Paladin has none.

My first character was a Paladin, and while it could solo (slowly), and could survive where others could not (thank you Monk splash (pre U19, actually TRed into Fighter pre U11), it sucked. I also was declined for more groups in favor of better classes more times than I care to remember.

My first suggestion is add a modified Radiant Servant tree as a third option. Paladins have a ton of turns, and now no use for them. Healing Aura will boost their survivability while benefiting the group as a whole. Burst gives them AoE healing. You can also give them regenerating LoH here, which is something that should have been added to the class ages ago. This was actually my intention to build, when the initial lies about the NGE came out, and Half-Elves and Humans were going to get a range of PrE options (instead of AA and none). Heal as a capstone ability would be nice.

Second, Knight of the Chalice can go. Give them a dps tree that works against all mobs, with an edge against evil critters such as politicians, used car salesmen, and managers. Like Barbarian, they should get a smite that insta-kills. They should also be able to sacrifice a goat at need (or for a BBQ).

MMM BBQ Goat.

I've already said my piece about the defender trees. They're horrible. They remind me of my ex-wife. Do you really want to remind me of my ex wife? *transforms into green rage monster with purple pants, puts on Cure album*

I'm getting tired, so I'll come back later for the rest.

[BigErkyKid]

Skipping the flame war.

So when I said a possible solution was to nerf somehow kiting, you disagreed. Instead you propose to boost the defenses of melees. My question is how much do you need to boost them to bring them to a level that balances melees with ranged.

I am talking about PRR, AC, dodge bonuses, elemental mitigation.

[Daze]

SNIP

Can't find a single thing to argue against .... it's a little disappointing. I am in the mood for a BBQ though so it isn't a total loss.

[Scraap]

My first suggestion is add a modified Radiant Servant tree as a third option. Paladins have a ton of turns, and now no use for them. Healing Aura will boost their survivability while benefiting the group as a whole. Burst gives them AoE healing. You can also give them regenerating LoH here, which is something that should have been added to the class ages ago. This was actually my intention to build, when the initial lies about the NGE came out, and Half-Elves and Humans were going to get a range of PrE options.

That does bring up that we are still viewing present issues in light of a partly completed system. Not to be a horses rear, but just when the heck are we getting the completed racials to flesh out the full range of combinations to balance? Only been 2 years in the making now. Not overly comfortable getting into the sub-discussion on capstones without serious consideration of what'll happen when folks can get capstones + more than just AA as an additional PRE.

[Daze]

Skipping the flame war.

So when I said a possible solution was to nerf somehow kiting, you disagreed. Instead you propose to boost the defenses of melees. My question is how much do you need to boost them to bring them to a level that balances melees with ranged.

I am talking about PRR, AC, dodge bonuses, elemental mitigation.

What flame war? Let's stay on topic shall we? Nobody is flaming, just trying to keep focused.

I will refer back to the many posts discussing that very topic not least of which is the one right before yours. Lots of ideas for developer perusal.

PRR should not have limiting returns once a certain amount is reached. Fixing mithral to give the PRR of the armor it is on instead of the armor it becomes due to being mithral is a start. Adding in more damage reduction based on armor type would also be a start. Also, warforged need a little love in all of these categories.

AC is irrelevant to most builds because the price of making it mildly worthwhile mitigates any hopes of being considered DPS. Reducing mob to hit inflation and dmg inflation would help. Even the AC tooltip is misleading seeing as a miss chance at level tells me nothing in reference to the CR 70 mob I am attempting to tank.

Dodge bonuses need to be increased or have more stacking paths to increase the max bonuses on tower shields and armor. I get the idea behind lithe abilities being limited in heavy plate but with enough skill or a skilled enough craftsman or material (see above about mithral) it should alleviate some of those restrictions without limiting the returns.

Elemental mitigation can replace evasion provided it is based on % instead of points reduced. Again though ... it needs to be enough to justify the foregoing of robe wearing + evasion and not be dependent on actively blocking. It might even be better than evasion due to the ability to survive rays spells (polar ray I'm looking at you)


Balancing with ranged is a matter of perspective of course and I can only hope Varg's notes will help him make that determination.

[azrael4h]

That does bring up that we are still viewing present issues in light of a partly completed system. Not to be a horses rear, but just when the heck are we getting the completed racials to flesh out the full range of combinations to balance? Only been 2 years in the making now.

About the same time the sun degrades into a chunk of coal about the size of my fist.

Better bring a sweater, it might get a little nippy.

[TheDr0wRanger]

That does bring up that we are still viewing present issues in light of a partly completed system. Not to be a horses rear, but just when the heck are we getting the completed racials to flesh out the full range of combinations to balance? Only been 2 years in the making now. Not overly comfortable getting into the sub-discussion on capstones without serious consideration of what'll happen when folks can get capstones + more than just AA as an additional PRE.

This, a thousand times this.
When Horcs have access to Ravager(the one I remembered being theirs) there will be much more to love about their THF and Rage centric enhancements, Drow with the Assassin tree will make for some incredible sneak attack builds, Human versatility will be righteous yet again.

I feel like having racial trees will reinforce the strengths of each race hopefully without skewing the game. Although I've long said I think Deepwood has far better synergy for Elves than AA, being from the forest makes you a good shot(and having a racial tree unlock full-range sneak attack will increase diversity). Imbuing arrows with magic doesn't have the same "Born to do this" flavor, and it gives the non-optional Slaying Arrow and Paralysis away for far too little opportunity cost(Or so I think). Rangers would be better with that particular goody removed from the racial tree, possibly to a Ranger feat. Give monks the Arrows-Per-Minute advantage, but Rangers get the Bang-Per-Arrow advantage.

In that vein I would emphasize different ways to get the same outcome(dead guys, primarily). Ranged Sneak attack looks sweet, but since I need full Deepwood to be good at it, and I can't take any splashes(or lose the range captstone), can't take feats(Rogues only), theres no way for that damage to stand against Slayer+Paralysis. If you make it comparable to take other avenues, even if we are doing...say....20% less, you will improve diversity. This is my example of missed potential in enhancing diversity, people would feel better with more ways to be who they want to be, but if they feel like who they want to be can't work, eventually they settle for effectiveness or flavor. Let them have BOTH.

If tank-esque builds are to exist, they can come many ways. The fighter Brick with HP and DR, the Paladin with healing and Divine help to prevent his demise, Monks that can't be touched even casters with Raid-viable CC(imagine Ottos Resistible with a really fast expiration but it works on bosses).
Even enemy-engagement can come in various forms too, ranged DPS with moderate damage but low risk, Casters with high-burst damage but weaker long-term damage(sp pools), Charm anarchists who turn rooms against one another(make charmed things off themselves after the spell expires), Instakills that wipe rooms but fail to affect bosses, CC that locks anything down but lacks the power to spank it all. Ranged and caster may work for solo, CC makes parties have their own appeal without ruining the fun for soloists.

Support should include buffs, heals and possibly more viable CC(paralysis Bardchers are great to have along even if their own damage is not apex), AOE heals on Tanky healers, rapid fire group heals for more caster oriented builds, give out more Aura buffs, they are beautiful.

Try making more than one way to skin a cat, and make them come closer to parity.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

1. So, according to you a ranged build is NOT more powerful than a non ranged one (for the large majority of quests) right now. Interesting. So far everything points in the opposite direction, like the fact that monkchers are soloing raids like fot on ee and I don't seem to find any melee being capable of that. But I am sure you will point out to a large number of quests where melees have an upper hand, other than devils assault, of course.

2. I only stated multiclass>pure and you seem to agree. Again, I did include parenthesis mentioning wizzards...I guess it should have been in big red letters, like my multiple warnings of lack of consensus over solutions, etc.

Powerful how?

Melee DPS is still great.

And ranged was always powerful because of distance... even when everyone said it was gimped.


While ranged did get a big buff in DPS, the main thing that changed was that melee guys started dying every time they tried to melee a bunch of EE monsters.


Melee is still powerful, and maybe I am blind, but I still think the better melee builds out DPS the better ranged builds. (assuming the melee build can stay alive long enough anyway)

[Ivan_Milic]

I'll ignore the bit about soloing since it's not relevant to the discussion.

1) Melee vs ranged balance: While in Heroics and EN/EH it's not as big an issue, EE it is. The problem stems from mobs doing 200-400 points of damage, AC being made worthless deliberately by Turbine, PRR giving diminishing returns, making it only worthwhile to build up to a point, and the only actually effective damage mitigation methods being move yo buttocks, and displacement/incorporeal forms. Which either mean an entire inventory page or two of GS clickies,

Lol, even 5 displace clickies will last you through whole quest, should hit at least one shrine in 15 min.

[Qhualor]

Powerful how?

Melee DPS is still great.

And ranged was always powerful because of distance... even when everyone said it was gimped.


While ranged did get a big buff in DPS, the main thing that changed was that melee guys started dying every time they tried to melee a bunch of EE monsters.


Melee is still powerful, and maybe I am blind, but I still think the better melee builds out DPS the better ranged builds. (assuming the melee build can stay alive long enough anyway)

yes, but ranged has the advantage of distance. if there is just a few mobs and enough distance, those mobs can be dead or almost dead before the melees get to them. if there are a lot of them or the distance is short, than melees are able to get to the mobs and dealing more damage. Monkchers with their burst dps can debatable as far as better, but without it they are just another archer. this is assuming comparable builds, properly prepared and skill in battle though.

[Daze]

Lol, even 5 displace clickies will last you through whole quest, should hit at least one shrine in 15 min.

Until you meet a group of mobs with truesight .... which are quite a few in the latest EE content. Not to mention the fact that needing 5 GS clickies to make not only a build but an entire playstyle viable is broken.

As to why a ghost or wraith doesn't have ghost touch is beyond me.

[Holleyz]

Please refrain from using the word Ranged or Ranger when you are referring to the Monkchers. Pure Build Ranger Archers do not compare to these guys at all. NOT EVEN CLOSE. When you say Ranged people think Rangers. Whether they are Monkchers or Pure Build Archers or Artificers. This type of mis-labeling and bad selection of words will make developers think the problem is in the Ranged class period, instead of making them take a look at the Monkchers who's using 10kstars + Manyshots + slaying arrows + adrenaline+ haste+ burst + whatever Stance they are in. Compared to a Pure Build who just has Manyshots with a stupid cool down and a broken Slaying arrow and that's it.
My first Character was and is a Monkcher. I took her to level 15. I then made a Pure Build Elf AA Ranger who is currently at the same level. And I can tell you from first hand experience that there is NO comparison. The damage my Pure Build does with Manyshots = the amount of damage my Monkcher can do in 2 single shots fired. My Pure Build hits 68 to 75 points of damage per shot fired. My Monkcher hits 158 to 273 per shot fired. That is both of them with no ship buffs, no self buffs, and no adrenaline or slaying arrows or manyshots or 10k stars going that's just a normal fired shot. Both using the Silver Longbow. The highest number I have seen my Pure Build hit for was 258 with a Slaying Arrow. The Highest I have seen my Monkcher Holleyz hit for was 2,536 Points of damage with slaying arrow. How does this even compare?

So again I ask of you all: Please refrain from using the word Archer or Ranger or Ranged when you REALY mean Monkcher.

[Enoach]

I've continued to think about this balance issue and it still comes down (at least for me) to not an issue of build X needs to equal build Y (ie in DPS) but that both builds should be able to capitalize on different ways to complete a quest - Hulk Smash vs Sneak and all variants in between.

Issue I feel need to be addressed...

1. Running while invisible should still be detectable by listen. Running quietly while dressed to the nines in gear really should not be possible. AI should be smart enough to pursue if this is the case - Obviously Invisibility should still contain the miss chance it affords for "Guessing" where a PC is.

2. Melee defense
AC needs to matter - It is a very important part of the Miss Chance especially for Heavy Armor builds. I'm not asking for "not hitable" I'm asking for a reasonable miss chance so the 200 - 400 per hit can be avoided

Physical Resistance Rating - Needs to be adjusted so that adding on more PRR has the same benefit for the First Point as the last. I believe this means Turbine needs to decide what is the Maximum Damage Avoidance they want to allow and then base the PRR numbers off of that amount. My opinion is Heavy Armor should provide the most PRR (Mitheral should also be based on it primary Armor type not its adjusted)

Damage Reduction - Needs to be adjusted to be meaningful for Epic content. The current levels is fine for the pre-Epic, but something needs to be built in at the epic levels to increase its effectiveness - FoTW has Damage Reduction - but 2/4/6 PRR and 1/2/3 DR bonus is not really worth it.

Elemental Reduction - This is actually the only aspect I currently feel that the S&B character currently has nailed down with the gear, spells, feats, enhancements and ED abilities that improve the shields ability to reduce this type of damage. This is already nearly as good as building for evasion.

Dodge and Concealment are the only forms of defense that do not scale based on Mob Level, Dodge is also more available to non-Armor builds (as it should be). But a heavy armor build should be able to build enough of a defense that they are also hard to hit - otherwise all Tank Type Heavy Armor builds will need to exceed 2K HP to survive and lets not go back down that path...


3. Effects like Attribute Draining, Level Draining and Length of time under the effect (such as spells)...
Attribute Draining (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Chr) should not recover as quickly as they currently do at Epic Levels, it should take just as long for NPCs to recover as it does PCs. Opening these options back up will open up to the choices so that DPS does not have to be King. I'm fine with Epic Trash being resistant (not immune) to these forms of attacks but in its current state it makes these options very hard to use.

Level Draining - Similar to Attribute Draining. NPCs should recover at the same rate as PCs. This will open up DC abilities as Debuffs will actually last longer than 10 seconds. The problem with the fast recovery time is that AoE debuffs become a waste of resources as the NPC recovers to quickly for it to even matter.

Spell effect intervals - If a caster has the DC to land the spell, Epic mobs should not be able to recover in 10 seconds - They should follow the Spells DC for saving throws. I've seen far to often a charmed or suggested Epic Trash mob breaking from control nearly the same instant they get a party hat, they should get their second save role after the appropriate time frame and not before.

[Daze]

Being invisible DOES trigger a listen check and mobs DO actively look for things they hear. They also get spot checks to see through your invisibility based on proximity ....

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak


Also, S&B builds may get energy resistance good enough to forego evasion when actively blocking but not otherwise ... which is fairly useless against fireballs you don't see coming. As opposed to evasion which is passive. Therefore ... not equal.

[azrael4h]

Until you meet a group of mobs with truesight .... which are quite a few in the latest EE content. Not to mention the fact that needing 5 GS clickies to make not only a build but an entire playstyle viable is broken.

Which is why EE damage needs to be toned down. When that happens, there won't be the incentive to run high-dps ranged builds. Even if
AC suddenly became not worthless, the vast majority goes the easiest route that gets them the best reward. Despite all the complaining that the game is too easy, the exact same players do everything they can to make it as easy as possible for themselves.

[capsela]

Nerf Monks. Or the Monkchers. NOT ARCHERS! I have both a pure build AA Ranger and a Monkcher and I will be the first to tell you that a monk should not be able to do more damage with a bow than a pure build AA Ranger that specializes in that one weapon. Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it. For example your a human sorcerer can you pick up a dwarven axe and do more damage with it than a pure build dwarf? No you cant. So how is it that a monk can pick up a bow and out dps a pure build Archer?? Makes no sense
You guys have already nerfed the Archer class to the point that its almost unplayable and I for one no longer enjoy even playing that class. Thanks a lot. So I was FORCED to splash her with a Monk just to keep her viable. And you've gone and nerfed shiradi for the 2nd time now just because every one cried and whined about it. So why hasn't there been anything done to the monk class? Seriously people You are forcing everyone that plays this game to splash their favorite classes with the monk just so they can play the game.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.
Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

Think about it a Pure Build dedicates all his time and his life to specialize in that ONE weapon and that ONE class. So how is it that a Monk who is a Monk using handwraps can pick up a bow and do more damage? The Monk has to DEVIDE his time and training to be able to use more than one weapon. That's all cool but in reality theres no way someone who devotes HALF of their time to a career is going to do it better than someone who devotes ALL of their time to it.

What are you trying to say here?

[murf201]

What are you trying to say here?

And i have to agree with her ! Monkchers in particular have so many advantages over the pure ranger .

Movement speed for kiting those fast mobs , Better saves , Improved evasion , Better APR= Arrows per minute , Which translates too more dps ! Better healing amp , Better defense from poor design .......... Robes !!!

And they get a better critical profile !! Where is there a feat or an enhancement outside of improved critical or overwhelming for the pure build without being unreasonable and going heavily into a near useless destiny ??

Monkchers and there variants " And i will add 12/8 rogue ranger into that mix as well " Are so op that i believe they left out the expanded crit profile on new bows to try and keep them at bay !! While at the same time hurting anyone who stays pure !!

So they heavily outdo a 20 AA ranger !!

There is no tradeoff what so ever !! Wait rangers can get more use out of doubleshot " They do as well "

But who cares about doubleshot when you can have a superior version of it named 10k stars !!


All this and at the same time i will agree that a slayer arrow should only work on the first arrow as well for any class that incorporates its use , But at the same time they would make everything else work like this and severely gimp rangers and ranged classes all together !!

And if they do put a nerf bat/fix in for adrenaline+slayer then they need to look at making another destiny explicitly for ranged , And i mean all types of ranged combat , Preferably a dps destiny for ranged combat !!

Shiradi could of been so much more , Running in shiradi as a ranged user means you really don't have a dps or worthy epic moment . Yeah tea is cool for utility . ill have more later