Player Character Balance

[D-molisher]

So in other words, people fear fixes. (Not new to the game). Now I see a lot of defensive stands here. Some people thinking mhm mhm if they nerf my shiradi spam machine what sort of sorcerer will I be able to play end game? mhmm if they nerf kiting how on earth will I be able to take +300HP per hit from those HP bags? And then getting very aggressive at anything that touches that.

It appears to me that there is a lot of private calculation and a complete lack of trust that the development team will implement comprehensive changes, rather than just smacking this one thing you are using and leaving the rest ready to eat you on the way down.

To a certain extend, experience and the fact that they tend to ask for very narrow suggestions at a time seems to indicate it, but I don't think that long term it does any favor to the goal of having a better game.

You are talking about Turbine (TM)
There have been enormous nerfs all the years i have been here, so i see a valid reason for most peoples doubts -> including mine.

Like the bard nerf that made amrath bard proof, havent bothered doing amrath since -> exept a few times when friends / guild ask for hlp flagging for TOD.
But with new items ( raid loot inbalance ) noone cares for TOD anyway.

P.S:
Probably why i didnt bother with the stupid survey, that doesnt add enuff choice / questions.

[knockcocker]

Then why are the mobs in the quest to start with?

Why have the spell Invisibility in the game?

In any case, this is a matter of balance. I brought it up for balance reasons, not to encourage the devs to force you to kill all the mobs and what not. But of course, people fear it because lets face it some quests, specially in end game, are BORING! It just takes long to beat some mobs without it being that challenging or fun, hence people run through them.

At the moment you can stealth/invis past or fight. You seem to want to reduce that to just fight - even using
the term exploit. There are already too many places in the game where you must kill mobs in order for doors
to open (e.g. Let Sleeping Dust Lie - rats ffs).

In doing so, though, the balance is broken. That´s my claim.

How so?

Now I also want to point out that a lot of people come to this thread fearing the fixes. I don't think they trust devs to do a good job balancing and they think they will just end up worse off than now. They have figured out the way to deal with current "mistakes", now it would be painful to have to figure out the next set. A prime example is this invis running through quests. It is just a way to speed up parts of the quest that aren't fun (granted even if they were fun, people would often choose to skip them for the sake of fast running a quest). So what are the odds that the game designers rework a whole lot of quests so that you CANNOT invis run them and they become more fun?

If you don't want to invis past mobs then don't. Why does it bother you so much that if people choose to
do so they can? At least now you have a choice - except where it's required or mobs have see invis.

I'm sorry but all your posts are heavily coloured with how you play and therefore how you think everyone
else should play. Why?

While I understand that, I also think that balance is heavily affected by these "exploits" and that long term the game should try to fix them. Even if it means more less fun for a bit.

PS - Also, how are the devs going to catter to our taste in quests if they think they are doing fine and it s just that we are avoiding large chunks of the quest?

Sorry, 'fix' what now?

You just seem to want to fit everything to how you think the game should be. If you don't want to 'exploit' using invis.
then don't. What's wrong with letting the players choose to do what they enjoy most?

[Alfhild]

So in other words, people fear fixes.

People are afraid that Turbine will fix this current issue the way they handled previous issues. People are afraid that player balance will be Ghostbaned(TM). Varg's and Cord's subsequent comments on this thread are meant to alleviate that concern, but that does not mean that concern is still not on people's minds.

[BigErkyKid]

In which of these 2 categories do good EE melee and/or ranged builds fall in your opinion? Cause monkchers or blitzers could clear rooms almost as fast as casters and they are even better in long bosses fights. I do not think there's a balance issue with invis running.

Well, I am working under the assumption that ranged builds are not WAI right now. Otherwise, they clearly out DPS everything from range and end of it. I have yet to see a build being able to compete with the best monkchers out there in any dimension (do correct me if you can see anything better, unfortunately I haven't). For melees, I think it is far less frequent to fine very good melee builds so it doesn't bother me much.

The way it seems turbine wanted the game to work was that casters have more power than others but with limited resources. Hence my comment.

On people saying let others play the way they want, etc. I don't know what to tell you. You like the game a given way and I respect that. But I think that forcing people to either invis run stuff (with the imbalance that brings, as I see it and have already explained) or fall behind with those who do (they get cooler stuff quicker, etc.) is not what will make for the best game. Note that I don't think that a lot of the fights (required or not) in the quests are interesting (I am a bit tired of repeating myself, my views on that are in the last few posts).

[BigErkyKid]

People are afraid that Turbine will fix this current issue the way they handled previous issues. People are afraid that player balance will be Ghostbaned(TM). Varg's and Cord's subsequent comments on this thread are meant to alleviate that concern, but that does not mean that concern is still not on people's minds.

I am with you guys. I am afraid too. But this thread is about balance and I try to give an objective (yeah, yeah...) perspective to the issues we discuss. Whether they will just burn and not add that's a concern for Varg to address, not me!

[Ancient]

On people saying let others play the way they want, etc. I don't know what to tell you. You like the game a given way and I respect that. But I think that forcing people to either invis run stuff (with the imbalance that brings, as I see it and have already explained) or fall behind with those who do (they get cooler stuff quicker, etc.) is not what will make for the best game. Note that I don't think that a lot of the fights (required or not) in the quests are interesting (I am a bit tired of repeating myself, my views on that are in the last few posts).

"They get cooler stuff quicker" is not a good reason to nerf, it is simply jealousy. Even if everyone had the same build and there was only 2 buttons, jump and attack... there would still be elite players, and those elite players would still get their shinies quicker.

You base your views on heavy handed assumptions, assume anyone who disagrees with you has bad motives and use jealousy of others as your impact to your arguments even when attempting to defend that you are not.

I like DDO for the flexible and complex builds. I also like the quests with different ways to run them. Taking that out wouldn't be a fix... it would simply remove the fun. And if a game is not fun...

[Qhualor]

Nuking whole rooms takes more time than running past while invis. If nuking whole rooms granted something people would have to choose between getting what kills grant or a faster completion; as it currently stands killing unnecessary mobs to quest completion just increase the time you spend in the quest and grants nothing.

You just agreed with me on xp/min.

Nuking whole rooms killing mobs does give you something.. xp. Its just takes too long for the zergers.

[BigErkyKid]

"They get cooler stuff quicker" is not a good reason to nerf, it is simply jealousy. Even if everyone had the same build and there was only 2 buttons, jump and attack... there would still be elite players, and those elite players would still get their shinies quicker.

You base your views on heavy handed assumptions, assume anyone who disagrees with you has bad motives and use jealousy of others as your impact to your arguments even when attempting to defend that you are not.

I like DDO for the flexible and complex builds. I also like the quests with different ways to run them. Taking that out wouldn't be a fix... it would simply remove the fun. And if a game is not fun...

Alright, let's go back to what I said.

I said invis running creates an issue of balance. I was asked why. I explained it.

Should invis run and power runs be allowed by the game design? This is a thread about balance. If the game is designed so that it does not create issues across builds / classes / whatever, I have nothing to say in terms of balance. I hope I settled it before I am characterized again as a green envious monster.

[Thayion516]

I think Melees should get more Helpless/Knockdown abilities. This would be an easy change and would let Melee add more to the bottom line of combat.

We all know that Overwhelming Force, Pin/Whistler are Awesome abilities as they DIRECTLY effect the tide and pace of combat (mentioning Nerve Venom here also as it is extremely useful but does not make helpless). They directly bring CC abilities to the fight and prove extremely useful for overcoming the HPs of EE creatures with the Helpless tag. Helpless helps the entire party to accomplish the goal of killing difficult mobs.

One thing about Overwhelming Force is it is a T4 ability that rely's on a previous tiered ability and therefore not twistable, you MUST be in FotW tree to get it, and have to have already filled most of the tree. OF is located about right for its power level. A No-Save CC Helpless effect with a minimum of 15 points to fully use it. Very Nice for a Melee.

DO THIS MORE and adjust the action UP on the tree so that it is not twistable for overpowering twists. And make them more landable.

Example.
Lay Waste T3 LD Destiny. (Cooldown 1 min) Perform an Area of Effect attack with +5[W] damage and +1 critical damage multiplier. On Hit Knocks the target down, Balance DC (10 + Character Level + Strength Modifier) Negates. Momentum Swing has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability (this cannot occur more than once every 3 seconds). You must have Stance: Power Attack active to perform this ability.

Change To,

Lay Waste T5 LD Destiny. (Cooldown 1 min) Perform an Area of Effect attack with +5[W] damage and +1 critical damage multiplier. On Hit Knocks the target down for 3/6/9 seconds, Balance DC (10 + Character Level + Strength Modifier + Trip Item Modifier + Misc Modifier) Negates. Knocked Down targets under Momentum Swing are considered Helpless. Momentum Swing has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability (this cannot occur more than once every 5 seconds). You must have Stance: Power Attack active to perform this ability.

Brings immediate CC and usefulness to the Melee that are in LD. Adds to party survivability as well as the survivability of individual characters as they are meleeing in the heat of battle.

Another Example:

Hardened: T5 US Destiny. Passive Bonus: +[3/6/10] AC. ... Honestly this ability is **** for a T5. An Absolute No-Go.

Change to,

Shield Crush: T5 US Destiny. Passive Ability. Any time you Attack with a shield attack. You have a 20% chance to knock an opponent down for 3/6/9 seconds. This knockdown causes a Helpless state. On a Shield Crush attack that produces a critical hit, that attack will do +5(W) damage instead.

Thats the kind of ability I want to see from a brutal shield bash! Helps shield using Melees to do what they want to do. Use a shield for Defense and Offense. They could use that ability to slow down the tide of battle by focusing on 2 or 3 mobs to CC them semi effectively and helps the DPS of the group.

SMALL TWEEKS, not big moves, is what will balance this game. Change 1 or 2 abilities here or there, NOT reworking the whole system. Make Melee abilities relevant to combat and we will be happy.


Remember TWEEKS.. NOT BOMBS.

[Grimlock]

"They get cooler stuff quicker" is not a good reason to nerf, it is simply jealousy.

You base your views on heavy handed assumptions, assume anyone who disagrees with you has bad motives and use jealousy of others as your impact to your arguments even when attempting to defend that you are not.

This.

[pHo3nix]

Well, I am working under the assumption that ranged builds are not WAI right now. Otherwise, they clearly out DPS everything from range and end of it. I have yet to see a build being able to compete with the best monkchers out there in any dimension (do correct me if you can see anything better, unfortunately I haven't). For melees, I think it is far less frequent to fine very good melee builds so it doesn't bother me much.

It's less frequent to see good melee players, but don't think that all monkchers running around are that good: many of them do not use the build at 100% of its capability.

The way it seems turbine wanted the game to work was that casters have more power than others but with limited resources. Hence my comment.

On people saying let others play the way they want, etc. I don't know what to tell you. You like the game a given way and I respect that. But I think that forcing people to either invis run stuff (with the imbalance that brings, as I see it and have already explained) or fall behind with those who do (they get cooler stuff quicker, etc.) is not what will make for the best game. Note that I don't think that a lot of the fights (required or not) in the quests are interesting (I am a bit tired of repeating myself, my views on that are in the last few posts).

Jealousy is never a good reason to nerf things. If some builds suck in EE, nerfing good builds won't make bad builds uber in EE. Good players will find the next best thing and bad players will continue to suck. I agree that some changes to EE might be nice and i've already pointed out in my previous posts which ones, but asking them to nerf everything that currently works is not the solution.

[Ancient]

Alright, let's go back to what I said.

I said invis running creates an issue of balance. I was asked why. I explained it.

Should invis run and power runs be allowed by the game design? This is a thread about balance. If the game is designed so that it does not create issues across builds / classes / whatever, I have nothing to say in terms of balance. I hope I settled it before I am characterized again as a green envious monster.

Just about any build can UMD invis scrolls. Absolutely any build can use invis clickies. I would say that 100% availability of invisibility would mean the game is designed so it cannot be used as a balance issue.

Any questions?

[pHo3nix]

You just agreed with me on xp/min.

Nuking whole rooms killing mobs does give you something.. xp. Its just takes too long for the zergers.

Yes, that's why it's usually not worth the time. Either make killing worth the time or make it grant something else, otherwise avoiding fights it's the most efficient way to get things done and you can't blame players for invis running.

[BigErkyKid]

Just about any build can UMD invis scrolls. Absolutely any build can use invis clickies. I would say that 100% availability of invisibility would mean the game is designed so it cannot be used as a balance issue.

Any questions?

Yes. Do you honestly think that the fact that a good number of epic quests can be 75% invis run is WAI?

[Ancient]

Yes. Do you honestly think that the fact that a good number of epic quests can be 75% invis run is WAI?

"75% invis run"... again, what is a 75% invis run? "a good number"... I think 7 is a good number, I do not have a problem with 7 quests encouraging invis. Yeah, I think invis is balanced and working as intended.

Counter question: Are the epic quests different than the heroic quests? Many people have said not to mess with the heroic balance... is a level 2 spell really suddenly become an issue for epic quests? The onlyl real answer would be to point to the inflated hit points in EE... but if every other difficulty is working fine then then problem isn't invis... it is how EE is made challenging.

So once again. Yes, invis is fine.

[Vellrad]

Good: I'm hero, and my noble quest is to stop evil forces in the area. Do do so, I have to defeat their leader and/or destroy objects used for evil doing. I don't like the idea of taking life, and I do it only when I have no other choice.

Neutral: I'm mercenary, I'm doing whatever my client pays for. If they sent me to the dungeon to take out army general, I'm not getting paid for dealing with footsoldiers, I won't waste my time and resources to deal with them. What's more, engaging them may give time for my target to escape, call for reinforcements or activate magical device to give him protection. Also, enemy troops are mercenaries just like me, I don't have anything against them.

Evil: I'm mass murderer, I will kill anyone and anything that gets into my way, just for the fun of it. Theese silly morons that pay me are only to show me where I can find something to kill that won't get me jailed or killed by law enforcement.


Guess which alignment we cannot pick in game.

Yes, invis running is WAI.

[Qhualor]

Just about any build can UMD invis scrolls. Absolutely any build can use invis clickies. I would say that 100% availability of invisibility would mean the game is designed so it cannot be used as a balance issue.

Any questions?

Only problem with this is that invis clickies aren't dropping anymore. If they are than they are ultra rare. I have looted a clicky in months and months. This becomes a tinfoil hat conversation.

[Thayion516]

Just about any build can UMD invis scrolls. Absolutely any build can use invis clickies. I would say that 100% availability of invisibility would mean the game is designed so it cannot be used as a balance issue.

Any questions?

This is correct.

This thread started by a Dev is called "Player Character Balance"... 100% of people have the option to Invis therefore there is no balance issue. Take the "Is Invis OP?" argument to another thread. It don't belong here.

Keep on target folks. Don't get Derailed.

[pHo3nix]

Only problem with this is that invis clickies aren't dropping anymore. If they are than they are ultra rare. I have looted a clicky in months and months. This becomes a tinfoil hat conversation.

Yes, they probably were ghostbaned some time ago. Having enough UMD for scrolls in epic levels is easy enough on any class and there are pots and wands as random drops anyway, so there's no excuse to not have invisibility. The real problem is that your average pugger does not even know how to run invis and usually triggers DA, dies and then complains cause people are zerging ahead

Invisibility is WAI. We got enough broken things to fix, stop asking to fix things that aren't broken.

[BigErkyKid]

It's less frequent to see good melee players, but don't think that all monkchers running around are that good: many of them do not use the build at 100% of its capability.



Jealousy is never a good reason to nerf things. If some builds suck in EE, nerfing good builds won't make bad builds uber in EE. Good players will find the next best thing and bad players will continue to suck. I agree that some changes to EE might be nice and i've already pointed out in my previous posts which ones, but asking them to nerf everything that currently works is not the solution.

It is not about jelousy! What's with the jelousy thing? The line of reasoning cannot be: he doesn't seem to like the idea of people skipping most of the quest, hence he must be some noob who doesnt know how to do it. He is just jelous. This is not what I am talking about.

Yes, it is true that monkcher are not usually played in the most uber way. Regardless, a not top monkcher is still better dps than most caster shiradi or not. My original point being: he way it seems turbine wanted the game to work was that casters have more power than others but with limited resources. Hence my comment... So thats where invis running would be an issue. It might not seem one now given the issues you have brought up, it would be if it those were resolved.