Player Character Balance

[axel15810]

This is not true.

Elves make phenomenal Dex builds, and inherent Displacement from DM's is very compelling as is a lot of racial dodge. Humans and Drow are arguably still the best DC casters, DC casting is just a bit behind Nuking at the moment so it doesn't matter.

Other races need a buff to make the closer to equal, IMO. Starting with Halflings, Dwarves, and Helfs. They don't need a lot of work, but BF is just too OP.

I do agree BF are the best Melee option in like 99% of cases however.

I again, disagree that some of things you mentioned like dragonmarks, racial dodge, ect. even come close to competing with the bladeforged reconstruct SLA.

If I'm melee or divine I can get all the displacement I want from crafting greensteel clickies. And it doesn't waste a feat. And I believe there is an eternal flask of displacement from the new anniversary reward list.

However, there is no substitute for that incredibly reconstruct SLA, which is better than any self-healing option fleshy melee or fleshy specialist builds have. Again, DC casters like wizards can be an exception. And the extra feat from human is still nice, but not reconstruct SLA nice.

And no saying dodge, ect. from elf isn't nice to have for survivability, It just doesn't compare to the survivability you get from the reconstruct SLA.

Pretty much no reason not to be bladeforged unless you are a DC caster or divine in my view.

[Delacroix21]

OK!
The single laser-focused item for a preview of the summary of the thread: Melee in Epic Elite probably needs some help. .

Well I am glad to read this at least but I hope this means= EE monsters need a nerf as DC casters face similar issues.


Also I know you Devs have stated that you want to make the easiest changes possible to create balance and nerfing is easy, buffing is time consuming. But that being said Bards need a HUGE buff, as they just plain suck and have horrible PrEs designed completely around "flavor" with little thought going towards "how will this character play at endgame?" Case in point, how often are cold spells going to be thrown at our bard? and how much of a difference will 1d6 cold damage on attacks really make to a warchanter.


I hope you consider making bard meele song increase damage by a % (say 10%) so it scales as weapons etc. scale and maybe a charisma to-hit and damage mod. Also give caster bards SLAs (shouts seem the obvious choice). Last but not least it would be nice if bards and barbarians could be lawful, i know that goes against DnD but it really is a strike against them.

[nibel]

2 Monk and 2 Paladin offer so many benefits that it makes no sense NOT to splash them on most builds. That severely limits potential viable options. All capstones need a serious looking at because for most classes there is almost no reason to ever go pure. Pure builds for every class should not be a bad build choice, and right now unfortunately it is except for every class except perhaps the Wizard and Rogue class.

That is a symptom, not a cause.

Splashing for evasion is a thing since day 1, and yet, during a long time, it was a nice perk, but in no way a necessity for melee classes. Just check the pre-MotU melee builds. While a lot of them splashed monk (mostly because monk 2 > rogue 2), we also had a lot of them without Evasion, and with good balance overall.

There were a few reasons that people started using monk more and more as a necessary splash class: the ability to buy the improved elemental stances as feat, the ability to stay centered with unusual weapons, Dance of Flowers, and the two extra feats that helps acquiring all the requisites towards Overwhelming Critical.

On the same vein, splashing 2 pally levels was not a big thing because you could survive with your 20~30 reflex save, and achieve that value with some effort. I remember back in 2009 when I asked how effective would be a sorcerer 18/pally 2 for insane saves, and the answers I got were like "Sure, you have uber saves, but you don't need values that high for anything".

The problem is that now we need. If your save is on the ~40 range, you might as well have them on zero. It is the AC situation all over again. Sure, there is ways to raise your saves much higher than before, but pally 2 is a cheap and effective way to do this. Specially on a sorcerer.

Then, there is also the big, major problem, that is the lack of good level 9 spells. Currently, a sorcerer that splash monk 2/pally 2 will have a single level 8 spell. And it will be Black Dragon Bolt or Polar Ray. And because nothing on the level 9 spell list really is missing. Take a page from the Artificer class: One of the major reasons people like to consider pure artificers as a class option is how they have 4 good level 6 spells, and they only get their 4th level 6 slot at level 20.

Capstones are good as well. But when it catter to casters, giving people 3-5 VERY GOOD level 9 spells, make them value each level 9 slot they earn.

[axel15810]

That is a symptom, not a cause.

Splashing for evasion is a thing since day 1, and yet, during a long time, it was a nice perk, but in no way a necessity for melee classes. Just check the pre-MotU melee builds. While a lot of them splashed monk (mostly because monk 2 > rogue 2), we also had a lot of them without Evasion, and with good balance overall.

There were a few reasons that people started using monk more and more as a necessary splash class: the ability to buy the improved elemental stances as feat, the ability to stay centered with unusual weapons, Dance of Flowers, and the two extra feats that helps acquiring all the requisites towards Overwhelming Critical.

On the same vein, splashing 2 pally levels was not a big thing because you could survive with your 20~30 reflex save, and achieve that value with some effort. I remember back in 2009 when I asked how effective would be a sorcerer 18/pally 2 for insane saves, and the answers I got were like "Sure, you have uber saves, but you don't need values that high for anything".

The problem is that now we need. If your save is on the ~40 range, you might as well have them on zero. It is the AC situation all over again. Sure, there is ways to raise your saves much higher than before, but pally 2 is a cheap and effective way to do this. Specially on a sorcerer.

Then, there is also the big, major problem, that is the lack of good level 9 spells. Currently, a sorcerer that splash monk 2/pally 2 will have a single level 8 spell. And it will be Black Dragon Bolt or Polar Ray. And because nothing on the level 9 spell list really is missing. Take a page from the Artificer class: One of the major reasons people like to consider pure artificers as a class option is how they have 4 good level 6 spells, and they only get their 4th level 6 slot at level 20.

Capstones are good as well. But when it catter to casters, giving people 3-5 VERY GOOD level 9 spells, make them value each level 9 slot they earn.

I agree with all of this, you make some good points.

But it doesn't matter if it's a symptom or a cause. Call it whatever you want, bottom line is it's a problem because it limits build diversity. However they do it, it needs to be fixed. Preferably in the least painful way possible for players with pally/monk splashes.

[Qhualor]

I again, disagree that some of things you mentioned like dragonmarks, racial dodge, ect. even come close to competing with the bladeforged reconstruct SLA.

If I'm melee or divine I can get all the displacement I want from crafting greensteel clickies. And it doesn't waste a feat. And I believe there is an eternal flask of displacement from the new anniversary reward list.

However, there is no substitute for that incredibly reconstruct SLA, which is better than any self-healing option fleshy melee or fleshy specialist builds have. Again, DC casters like wizards can be an exception. And the extra feat from human is still nice, but not reconstruct SLA nice.

And no saying dodge, ect. from elf isn't nice to have for survivability, It just doesn't compare to the survivability you get from the reconstruct SLA.

Pretty much no reason not to be bladeforged unless you are a DC caster or divine in my view.

how does reconstruct compare to positive healing? with feats, gear, pots that are easy enough to get and any fleshy ranger and paladin are going to max out within reason. I honestly would like to see a reasonable comparison and not one that includes out of reach or what wouldn't be considered part of a basic build.

if you want to craft a bunch of GS clickies for displacement that only last for a minute and a half constantly switching items to cast it, than have at it. but that's not something that an average player is going to do. I don't know anybody that has more than a couple of them and they save those for big fights. the eternal flask lasts for 60 seconds. how long before you run out of those? these are the things I consider unreasonable expectations and not of the norm to expect.

[Uska]

how does reconstruct compare to positive healing? with feats, gear, pots that are easy enough to get and any fleshy ranger and paladin are going to max out within reason. I honestly would like to see a reasonable comparison and not one that includes out of reach or what wouldn't be considered part of a basic build.

if you want to craft a bunch of GS clickies for displacement that only last for a minute and a half constantly switching items to cast it, than have at it. but that's not something that an average player is going to do. I don't know anybody that has more than a couple of them and they save those for big fights. the eternal flask lasts for 5 minutes. how long before you run out of those? these are the things I consider unreasonable expectations and not of the norm to expect.

I agree with you on this SURPRISE.

[Thumbed_Servant]

OK!
...

The single laser-focused item for a preview of the summary of the thread: Melee in Epic Elite probably needs some help. There's many possible ways to come at this problem, while trying to address other issues as well. Identifying problems now, solutions later!

Thanks again for a lot of great feedback! Happy for it to keep coming.

Pardon me Vargouille, but I think it is a little bit different...the thing that needs some help in Epic Elite is not melee per se, but something that would make melee viable and something that is important to other toons too: We need the ability to take more than 1 or 2 hits in Epic Elite on toons that are geared for taking hits. IF Epic Elite melees weren't smashed in 1 or 2 hits their damage output would sustain them most likely (that's sure to be debated by some). Heavy armor wearing and damage sustaining is NOT the sole purview of melees.

Regards,

Thumbed_Servant

From my own perspective; I play clerics. They get heavy armor proficiency, they get heavy shield proficiency, they get heavier hit die than most, they are at their core one of the *stand and take the punishment* classes...but not in epic elite. That shield is good for holding some enchantments, that heavy armor the same...neither do much to help survivability in Epic Elite.

So, I say to you, it's not Epic Elite Melee toons needing help: It is Epic Elite physical damage mitigation that needs help in light of the insanely high damage output, or the insanely high damage output in Epic Elite, that needs to be addressed.

[Arianka]

OK!

My apologies: I still don't have an extremely substantial post to give right at this moment, because my brain is melting, but I've caught up on every post in this thread so far!

You guys have a lot to say. Also, you don't need to repeat yourself in the hopes that we'll see it. Because I'm reading every single post. (I will neither confirm nor deny some amount of so-called "skimming" that may occur when I see a specific poster making a post that starts off sounding very similar to other posts by that poster).

Next steps: Soon(tm), I'm going to try to summarize what I feel you guys have said (from my nine pages of notes... luckily I could just add "+1" to many of the thoughts after one or two dozen pages). This serves multiple purposes, including sorting the information out in my own head, telling you guys where we are all collectively at, and sending around to the rest of the DDO development team for those who are not so crazy as to try to read this entire thread. (I'll do my best to give some amount of developer comments as well, but the bulk of that might need to follow later.)

There were some great individual posts (and some of my 'quick' notes are, "Go back and read this guy's post again for some good thoughts"), and lots of good stuff to hear from everyone. There were some clear patterns, many of which helped reinforce what we already thought was going on (but it's extremely helpful to us to hear it from you!), and some occasional surprises. There were a few ideas I personally hadn't seen before that were Quite Interesting and could end up making it into DDO.

I'd like to thank those who filled out surveys, as well, which you are welcome to still do for another couple of days (at which point we'll probably try to aggregate the data we have, so after that it won't be as useful). We know the survey wasn't perfect, and also not extensive -- not being overly extensive was by design, as we don't want to waste your time, nor ours. For instance, we knowingly left out Races, for time the being, and didn't want the survey to get into individual abilities yet -- we selfishly like having you guys come up with the list of abilities that deserve more attention (for good or ill) rather than us focusing the discussion on the ones we pick. The broad view is what we wanted, and what we got!

None of the reactions to this are necessarily going to be imminent. I'd like to assuage any fears that this post was in direct preparation for incoming nerfs. The previously discussed upcoming patch certainly won't, and the next update may or may not have any significant changes based on this discussion (much of this is based on time and doing it right). However, there's some obvious takeaways from both this and No-Dice's Monster Stat thread that should help us direct new content to a better place.

There was one item that came up a few times that makes it clear some players have the wrong idea: Balance is definitely not about making many different play styles (or classes, or EDs, etc.) play the same. Balance is about making many different playstyles viable, so you (the players) feel like there are as many legitimate options as we can possibly give you. The greatest concern we have, and a major driver of discussing this right now, is the worry that there are not as many legitimate playstyles as we could be giving you.

The single laser-focused item for a preview of the summary of the thread: Melee in Epic Elite probably needs some help. There's many possible ways to come at this problem, while trying to address other issues as well. Identifying problems now, solutions later!

Thanks again for a lot of great feedback! Happy for it to keep coming.

awesom post Varg. thanx!!!

[nibel]

I agree with all of this, you make some good points.

But it doesn't matter if it's a symptom or a cause.

It matters on the long run. Because if you remove the symptom (everyone splash monk2 and pally 2), but do not fix the cause for that (EE have insane requirements on saves, and deal too much damage), the players will soon find the next new thing to bypass the main problem, and we will be in the same situation again in a few weeks.

If the problem were ONLY in the classes themselves (like on the early days of the enhancement pass we had people getting Ranger 2 for 80 positive spellpower, or getting a druid level for beguile), sure, fix the class and the problem is solved. That is not the issue with Evasion or Divine Grace.

[Cyr]

IDK, if I agree with that as a good take away.

A big issue with melee in EE is that there are so many bad melee toons in EE now.

I am talking about the people who think they can build a tank in DDO...slap on 1400 HP, a shield, and some heavy armor.

Ran with many of those and they are just not very useful in the majority of content and then only when they are built and geared correctly.

I think the problem that people are trying to rationalize as an issue with melee being insufficient in EE s often drawn from the problem of trying to build these tank builds and compete. They lose the DPS race which is key to DDO survival, rarely are built with healing amp being critical, and often have no real damage mitigation beyond AC/PRR (which in DDO is less then half the picture). You are never going to help those builds be good in EE without breaking how the game has worked in fundamental ways.

I think a good take away instead would be...

Pure Melee in EE outside of LD and Fury need some help. That is because outside of those destinies they are doing too little DPS. In LD a melee is very competitive with other build types. In blitz the good melee is mowing down EE mobs very quickly indeed. Really this is a destiny viability issue more then anything else. If you build a toon which does not have a way to mitigate lots of the damage that occurs in DDO AND has not real self healing then frankly the game mechanics are not the issue.

PS: For those wondering about damage mitigation methods...
Displacement
Ghostly
Dodge %
Blur
Lesser Displacement (EE Ring of Shadows)
Deception Item
Improved Deception Item (these are very powerful for reducing incoming damage even against many boss mobs as a mob who is facing away from you does little damage to you in most cases)
Tactical Feats (Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, Trip, Improved Trip, QP, Kukan whatever it is called)
DPS!
Saves
Absorb Items
Resist Items
Blindness Procs! (Huge damage mitigation versus many trash mobs from these...stuff like radiance rapiers)
Certain Guards (Earthgrab/Invsibility for example)
movement (seriously if you are standing in front of a mob swinging away without deception procs going off you are getting hit way more then you should and doing no more dps really)
PRR
AC
Damage Reduction
Adrenaline Knockdown (uber ability)
Ethereal Clickie when stuck in mob pack
STOP HITTING INTIM if you can not take agro
Diplo mobs off you (yeah this actually works)
If in mixed parties let the sorc/wiz/divine/ranged shoot into combat first and follow just a few steps behind...ie do not have mass agro if you are melee
Jump! When in trouble in DDO jump over mobs and run around a second or two while you heal up with your cocoon or scrolls
Against broken designed mobs like Shad Kai Assassins DO NOT MELEE them while they swing their chain! When you do get close first action needs to be to stop them from doing that (ie stun/trip).
STOP SHIELD BLOCKING ALL THE TIME! This is the least useful method of avoiding damage in most DDO encounters. Really it is only useful in certain niche places where raid bosses need to be held still AND your toon can handle this. You should not be shield blocking versus trash on a melee. You certainly should not be shield blocking in situations where you are thinking...oh man I am taking way too much damage and I am about to die.

[Merlin-ator]

DDO is not a PvP styled game, it's PvE. Character balance isn't that important. Character complementation, however, is. Take, for example, the Necromancy focused wizard: It's very squishy. If anything makes its save, said wizard is likely to waste a lot of mana trying to kill whatever it is before the mob kills the wiz. This is why barbs and fighters can soak damage, because the wizard needs a meat shield to function. In a similar vein, the fighter can't kill mobs if an enemy caster keeps throwing Hold Person at him. The wizard throws a well-placed Finger of Death, and the larger threat has been taken care of. Both support the other to make it through an encounter. CAN wizards solo everything? Sure, in the same way that a fighter can - Careful character building, gearing, and use of tactics. DDO/D&D is an RPG system, and RPGs just can't be perfectly balanced - At every level, there will be some setup that is superior to all others. And if, by some miracle, DDO was balanced perfectly tomorrow - however "perfectly balanced" is measured objectively - The next update will shift the balance of power, with new gear and different challenges.

Yes, there are a few builds that are a bit too powerful than others. I only see it as being an issue in Shiradi. Here's how to fix Shiradi: All effects that proc on spells (Prism, Rainbow, and Double Rainbow especially) only proc when the caster is casting a Druid or Ranger spell. You're welcome, your invincible epic Sorcs are now defeatable. Still strong, but not nearly as cheap.



TL;DR: Please don't change anything. Except possibly Shiradi. And reverting poison/disease/Wail/AC/to-hit/combat in general back to pre-U14. What, a guy can hope, can't he?


EDIT/Final Thought: I saw an interesting YouTube video talking about power creep. The general idea is that a player will only change tactics, gear, whatever if it is superior. The interesting bit was on "incomparables". This is when two things can't be compared because they're too different. You could do math and find out, by weighted average, whether your Paralyzing handwraps are better than your +5 Icy Burst of Maiming for your level. However, abilities like Barbarian Rage can't be compared to Monk Abundant Step because they're two fundamentally different abilities. That's what I like about DDO - Just because one melee character can't quickly take out an enemy caster, doesn't mean the whole group of toons is pigeonholed.

[SirValentine]

PS: For those wondering about damage mitigation methods...

Great list, and though things on your list have places, they're not all equally useful, especially to a medium/heavy armor-wearing melee DPS or tank.

Displacement

For some reason they nerfed this to self-only. Sure, your melee can maybe UMD-scroll it, or spend his game-time and $$$ on raid timer bypasses to run Shroud and build a load of clickies, but, honestly, this is annoying to deal with on anyone other than someone who can cast it on themselves.

Devs: how about un-nerfing the self-only? Raises value of teamwork, makes melees more surivivable.

Ghostly

Yes...10%, better than nothing, though well behind versus certain enhancements that give 25%.

Dodge %
...
PRR
AC
Damage Reduction
...
STOP SHIELD BLOCKING ALL THE TIME! This is the least useful method of avoiding damage in most DDO encounters. Really it is only useful in certain niche places where raid bosses need to be held still AND your toon can handle this. You should not be shield blocking versus trash on a melee. You certainly should not be shield blocking in situations where you are thinking...oh man I am taking way too much damage and I am about to die.

Dodge is great for pajama-wearers. Not nearly so much for armor-wearers. Especially since armor gives so little benefit in return.

AC is pretty much useless (mob to-hit too high, and even if you go crazy on gear trying to raise it). PRR has severely diminishing returns, and not enough benefit from armor. DR is mostly useless.

Though you accurately describe that shield-blocking is usually an inferior choice, to me that's a problem. Trying to be more defensive, whether by wearing heavier armor, or by shield blocking, should actually be significantly better defensively. The problem is that they are not enough better for what you have to give up.

I think shields & heavier armor need a buff that makes them more competitive choices with robes/outfits.

Deception Item
Improved Deception Item (these are very powerful for reducing incoming damage even against many boss mobs as a mob who is facing away from you does little damage to you in most cases)
...
STOP HITTING INTIM if you can not take agro
Diplo mobs off you (yeah this actually works)
If in mixed parties let the sorc/wiz/divine/ranged shoot into combat first and follow just a few steps behind...ie do not have mass agro if you are melee

Though true, often not optimal at all. Screws up aggro. Hard to beat on a mob that's chasing someone else. Puts other party members at risk who may be even more fragile.

Tactical Feats (Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, Trip, Improved Trip, QP, Kukan whatever it is called)

Back to the "Monster saves are too high!" issue? Never mind the Monk tactics (separate issue), but how how can a non-Monk DPS melee reasonably get their Stunning Blow DC or Trip DC? I haven't run the numbers, but I'm genuinely curious. Somehow I never see people using these in EEs...some of the same people I'd see use them all the time in Heroic tier. Has everyone just forgotten about them, or are they not used because mob stats make them mostly unusable?

Saves
...
Resist Items

Saves are either high enough...or not. You get into 2 issues already mentioned: must-have-Paladin-splash-for-Divine-Grace, and monster-stats-are-too-high.

[Robai]

On this specific thing (which I did not touch in my earlier posts but is a real issue):

The real issue here is the PRR formula, which means that melee players have hit a point of extreme diminishing returns on PRR and so it can't provide any further defense than it does now.

I think the solution is to change the currently very complex formula to the following:

Player base PRR = 100 (not the current 0)
To lose 100 HP from physical damage, you need to take damage equal to your PRR.

So if your only PRR source is a +20 PRR item, each 120 damage you suffer is converted to 100 HP lost.


This would remove the soft cap on PRR and help melee survivability scale up better with player gear.

Why default PRR 100? If you wear robes then your starting PRR should be 0.

PRR should GREATLY depend on armor type. For example:
Heavy armor: 150 PRR (= 50.61% dmg reduction)
Medium armor: 100 PRR (= 41.21% dmg reduction)
Light armor: 50 PRR (= 25.67% dmg reduction)
Robes: 0 PRR

Now you might consider not taking evasion.

Spells will still hurt, but for tank builds there should be an option for reducing spell dmg.
Foe example, Sentinel should have like 50% Spell dmg reduction (and stacking with some pally enhancement, which should grant like 10%, 20% if holding shield, and 30% if actively blocking)

[Eth]

PRR should GREATLY depend on armor type.

This.

At the moment the difference in PRR between the armors is so low, you barely notice a difference.
Even worse, you actually LOWER your overall defense by going medium or heavy armor, because you cripple your dodge.
I can't see any reason why anyone would wear heavy armor at the moment other than for flavor reason.
Any build can get 10% dodge without even trying.

[Fhauvial]

Why default PRR 100? If you wear robes then your starting PRR should be 0.

PRR should GREATLY depend on armor type. For example:
Heavy armor: 150 PRR (= 50.61% dmg reduction)
Medium armor: 100 PRR (= 41.21% dmg reduction)
Light armor: 50 PRR (= 25.67% dmg reduction)
Robes: 0 PRR

Now you might consider not taking evasion.

Spells will still hurt, but for tank builds there should be an option for reducing spell dmg.
Foe example, Sentinel should have like 50% Spell dmg reduction (and stacking with some pally enhancement, which should grant like 10%, 20% if holding shield, and 30% if actively blocking)

Block Energy + 33% Absorb item = 63% absorption (assuming they stack).

Not saying it couldn't be improved upon, but Sentinel does have options.

[Veriden]

Heavy armor is much weaker than wearing robes

I'm sorry but every time I see some one say this I want to slap them. We're not playing in realistic medieval times. We're playing where magic applies. When you see cloth enchanted with +8 armor bonus that means it literally protects just as well as full plate does. That is how that enchantment works sorry but no, wearing full plate doesn't need to be worth anything b/c the only thing it does physically is restrict your movement. So why not equip your +8 whitey tighties? If you had the choice to wear pajamas, clothes, robes, etc That increased your protection in such a way with out lugging around 50lb of body weight wouldn't you?

If anything robes/outfits that give armor bonuses needs to give base prr of the type of bonus. +4 light armor prr, +6 medium armor prr, +8 and up gives heavy armor prr.

If you saw some one in an pnp game running around in armor they probably are either on a tight budget or don't know about +8 bracers of armor. Sure you can squeeze in 5 more ac using base full plate, but if your dex is above 22 you've already negated every thing heavy armor can give you.

But if you want to impose something that heavy armor SHOULD mean? Enjoy your 1/3rd movement speed loss unless you're a dwarf which is already moving at 2/3rds the rate of a medium sized creature anyway.

I don't mean to point out your post in particular. Just that part. Magical fantasy land that ebberon is set in > Earth's actual historical battles (which ebberon isn't set in.) which full plate was both expensive and impractical for anyways. Chaim and leathers is where the real benefits were. Any one with a mace could eff up a person in a suit of plate.

[knockcocker]

Yes, that was my thinking. (Casters trash, melee boss.)

Please, please just NO!

I wish everyone would stop trying to pigeonhole roles and responsibilities etc. This just takes away all
that is good about DDO. Let the player decide what type of character they want and what they
want it to do. The game is supposed to be about fun not assembling a swat team. If you want to
play 'roles and responsibilities' guess what, you already can. Use the LFM panel. I think people
should accept that there is already quite a lot of personal preference already in the game if you
take control of it.

Varg, some stuff doesn't get used because it obviously is either underpowered, lacks utility (or just
too damned painful to use) or both. Combine this with the requirements of EE content railroading
certain build choices and you end up with the situation you have where certain builds and abilities
are perceived to be overpowered simply because they work.

People like choices
People like to think that their decisions matter

[knockcocker]

The single laser-focused item for a preview of the summary of the thread: Melee in Epic Elite probably needs some help. There's many possible ways to come at this problem, while trying to address other issues as well. Identifying problems now, solutions later!

Do you have metrics?

I see even you are talking about Epic Elite. The general consensus is that the thread itself became oriented around
EE play because that seems to be the only content where certain build choices are almost required. I wonder how
many of the player base regularly play at this level - in other words are we excessively worrying about a problem
which might only exist on EE?

Note, I'm not saying that the opinions of those who do regularly play EE should be dismissed just that care needs
to be taken before swingeing changes are made. You already seem aware of this though.

[Robai]

Block Energy + 33% Absorb item = 63% absorption (assuming they stack).

Not saying it couldn't be improved upon, but Sentinel does have options.

Block Energy in Sentinel is too weak option for a tank (since you have to be actively blocking for that, and it's only 30%).

Maybe Sentinel should give absorption this way (everything should stack with bonuses from enchantments if any):
30% always
+20% if holding a shield
+30% if actively blocking

Those bonuses stack as usual:
30% + 20% = 44%
30% + 20% + 30% = 60.8%

it also stacks with 3 x Epic past life Block Energy (+30% while blocking):
30% + 20% + 30% +30% = 72.56%
it also stacks with Shield Deflection feat (+40% while blocking with Tower shield):
30% + 20% + 30% +30% +40% = 83.53%
it also stacks with Energy Sheath (50% for a specific spell dmg type):
30% + 20% + 30% +30% +40% +50% = 91.76%
it also stacks with 33% absorption item (for a specific spell dmg type):
30% + 20% + 30% +30% +40% +50% +33% = 94.48%
it also stacks with GS item for a specific spell dmg type (not sure if it still gives +10%+15%+20%):
30% + 20% + 30% +30% +40% +50% +33% +10% + 15% +20% = 96.62%

[sirgog]

Do you have metrics?

I see even you are talking about Epic Elite. The general consensus is that the thread itself became oriented around
EE play because that seems to be the only content where certain build choices are almost required. I wonder how
many of the player base regularly play at this level - in other words are we excessively worrying about a problem
which might only exist on EE?

Note, I'm not saying that the opinions of those who do regularly play EE should be dismissed just that care needs
to be taken before swingeing changes are made. You already seem aware of this though.

Game balance doesn't matter at lower difficulties.

At lower difficulty settings, DC casters are *obscenely* overpowered and DPS casters are very close behind. But because the content is easy enough, everyone still feels like they are a useful participant.

Keep in mind that EH is balanced around players that do not have epic destinies but are competent at the game (sensible builds, sensibly chosen if low-powered gear), and EN around people that play solo and try to work things out as they go (weird mismatches of equipment, many wasted feats, etc).