Player Character Balance

[Nédime]

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.

I have to point out that Korthos is not really EE.

[avepepix]

Multiclassing and the combat system are the BEST features of ddo, and the only reason it has a niche of players.

The multiclass system its funy, you can multiclass with no restriction, so you can open your mind to a bast world of combination.
But that dont answer my question. 20 lvl fighter defender, its better or worst than a 10 pala/10 fighter?

Yeah some capstone are powerfull, others no. And you realice that when you encounter a toon half/half or worse 10/8/2 thats way better than you in your supoused job. So why the effort to go pure?

[Delacroix21]

So why the effort to go pure?

Thats just it, staying pure doesnt require any effort or planning. Multiclassing does.

[Ancient]

I have to point out that Korthos is not really EE.

EE Von3 Solo

I've done it in harder content too, that is just what I have a video of.

[BigErkyKid]

Fantastic combat physics?

So your telling me you can run backwards at the same rate as you can run forwards? with the same motor control?

the silly backpedal speed in DDO is one of the biggest flaws in their game engine imo....

They should throw a Balance check every 6 seconds. Fail and fall on your ass...

and no. I'm not generally opposed to Caster Kiters. I often kite through blade barriers as well as firewalls.

Of course, if they do something like that I really want to see them fix/remove the silly run through water slowdown and the step up animation for very short changes in elevation.

Kiting through BB and FW is not due to being able to cast jump. So nothing with that. True, the game has very nice physics, you can interact with the environment a lot and there are few invisible barriers: it seems feasible, then it can be done. Very good. What does this have to do with pew pew and phew phew kitting?

Regarding multiclassing. Not everyone enjoys being a sorcerer pally or a sorcerer monk or whatever other splash. Some people prefer to play pure classes. For a variety of reasons. For one, some people prefer to play characters that would make sense given some understanding of the lore surrounding DnD, and not necessarily whatever makes them more powerful. And no, they don't want to be the last monkey will doing that. This is something (people not wanting to feel underpowered) specially mentioned by the developer in his initial post.

In DnD, at least when I played as a teenager, there were reasons why people didn't multiclass. Explicit penalties AND increasing returns to specialization. DDO has accepted many of the restrictions and players have played by the rules (where are the barbarian pally monks?). So I don't think it is being "********" or other of the nice things people call those of my opinion to ask for some love for pure classes.

Of course, at the end of the day this is a matter of taste.

[Ancient]

Whatever else you do, don't do this. If DDO is known for anything it is the fantastic combat physics. To deliberately knee-cap yourselves by removing any of the existing dynamism of combat would be foolish in the extreme. Further, doing this would not even address your goal of nerfing high-powered toons. This would hurt everyone across the board. Pleeeease don't do this.

The rest of that particular post is also generally bad, but this one idea is terribad.

Agreed, 100%

There are some ideas which are just bad, and then there are the exceptionally bad ones that are something special.

[Rautis]

If we assume Elite Mobs need a "nerf", your suggestion requires designing and implementing that blanket nerf, buffing some mobs, and then implementing another nerf to balance the buff you gave them.
I am not saying you ideas are somehow intrinsically without value, I am saying they are far more extra work than I believe the Devs are willing to give to the matter.

Yes. Many of the suggestions I made might require more work than devs are willing to invest. I could see archer AI users gaining force arrow imbue at higher levels be rather doable. Or even just adding it to new monsters designed for future content. Anything works. Idea behind this is that it makes different characters shine in different content. Lots of archers? let the fighter with PRR get their aggro while your shadow fade guy deals with the melees.


I've seen many people request changing the bags of hp that hit too hard to melee into something less boring. So I could see something change in that aspect of game. There's a danger of monster just becoming too easy in every aspect and that shouldn't be what happens. Game should be fun to play.

As for your ideas of dispelling become an essential tool of encounter mechanics, it is an interesting idea, but given the current game mechanics and the current player atmosphere, are people going to agree to making Monkchers even more OP? (Think Manyshotted Shattermantle followed by Manyshotted Dispelling Shot)

No_Dice has shown some interest in dispelling in here. Yea, Dispelling shot should also be made caster level(ranger, except if elf AA where it could maybe be character level since they're not bladeforged) dispell check and cooldown should be extended based on ability to use it on several mobs with improved precise shot. Also, considering that it is the only dispelling ability that works(unless bugged, haven't tried) on anything epic I'd consider it already rather OP when compared to other dispell options.

[Delacroix21]

Staying pure will be more incentivised by racial PrEs, but multiclassing should always be powerfull as its just as easy to create a totally gimp toon multiclassing.

[avepepix]

Thats just it, staying pure doesnt require any effort or planning. Multiclassing does.

Pure still requires planning, and its still its an effort. 20 lvls fighter vs 10 monk/8 fighter/2 rouge. Who is better tank?

Let me put this in another way. Planning a multiclass vs leveling a pure. whats harder?

[Impaqt]

Kiting through BB and FW is not due to being able to cast jump. So nothing with that. True, the game has very nice physics, you can interact with the environment a lot and there are few invisible barriers: it seems feasible, then it can be done. Very good. What does this have to do with pew pew and phew phew kitting?

Regarding multiclassing. Not everyone enjoys being a sorcerer pally or a sorcerer monk or whatever other splash. Some people prefer to play pure classes. For a variety of reasons. For one, some people prefer to play characters that would make sense given some understanding of the lore surrounding DnD, and not necessarily whatever makes them more powerful. And no, they don't want to be the last monkey will doing that. This is something (people not wanting to feel underpowered) specially mentioned by the developer in his initial post.

In DnD, at least when I played as a teenager, there were reasons why people didn't multiclass. Explicit penalties AND increasing returns to specialization. DDO has accepted many of the restrictions and players have played by the rules (where are the barbarian pally monks?). So I don't think it is being "********" or other of the nice things people call those of my opinion to ask for some love for pure classes.

Of course, at the end of the day this is a matter of taste.

O.o

Sorry. not sure why I'm quoted here. One of my last responses was in regards to pure builds needing better incentives.

And people ddnt multiclass as much in PnP because they didnt have to. people were not playing to"wn" in Pnp. we had groups of people we played with on a regular basis so we knew what to expect and we knew what our roles needed to be.

Trying to compare PnP to DDO is flawed on so many levels I dont understand why people try to do it. I dont know who I'm going to be grouped with 10 minutes from now or 10 days from now.

[Ancient]

Pure still requires planning, and its still its an effort. 20 lvls fighter vs 10 monk/8 fighter/2 rouge. Who is better tank?

Let me put this in another way. Planning a multiclass vs leveling a pure. whats harder?

Not enough information, for either question.

[BigErkyKid]

O.o

Sorry. not sure why I'm quoted here. One of my last responses was in regards to pure builds needing better incentives.

And people ddnt multiclass as much in PnP because they didnt have to. people were not playing to"wn" in Pnp. we had groups of people we played with on a regular basis so we knew what to expect and we knew what our roles needed to be.

Trying to compare PnP to DDO is flawed on so many levels I dont understand why people try to do it. I dont know who I'm going to be grouped with 10 minutes from now or 10 days from now.

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from. Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

[Delacroix21]

Back to topic of balance:
1. Nerf EE monster saves, to hit, damage, and spell pen

2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50% spell power

3. Disable adrenaline while multishot (remove doubleshot penalty after multishot)

4. Keep blitz at 10 stacks, cut damage increase in half



Done!

[BigErkyKid]

Back to topic of balance:
1. Nerf EE monster saves, to hit, damage, and spell pen

2. Reduce shiradi procs to 50% spell power

3. Disable adrenaline while multishot (remove doubleshot penalty after multishot)

4. Keep blitz at 10 stacks, cut damage increase in half



Done!

I don't think the specific nerd you propose is enough. First, it just means spamming some more cheap spells to compensate for damage. This already happened when metas stopped affecting procs for free. Second, it does not provide an alternative to numbers in end game.

For the mobs I think there is a thread elsewhere.

[Delacroix21]

I don't think the specific nerd you propose is enough. First, it just means spamming some more cheap spells to compensate for damage. This already happened when metas stopped affecting procs for free. Second, it does not provide an alternative to numbers in end game.

For the mobs I think there is a thread elsewhere.

Nerfing EE mobs has everything to do with balance and all the current FotM builds, please read through this thread as 95% of posters came to the same conclusion.


My changes keep builds viable but now in line with draconic etc as mob hp and saves will be lower. The problem is there are to many suggestions that nerf these builds into uselessness.


If you like playing a shiradi MM spammer pre nerf, you will even after the nerf as lower monster hp will feel similar. But now draconics etc will not get saves and evades all the time and will blast hard!

[avepepix]

maybe a choise it would be "+20" for pure and "+10" multiclass. So a pure toon has a +20 to dc saves, +20 to roll dice, etc

[Impaqt]

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from.

maybe in 2006 you could make a case that 75% of the game came from PnP.... Even then... I would dissagree.... but you might of had a case...

Today.. ridiculous... 75%+ of this game has come from the devs minds adapting things from PnP to somewhat work in an online game.

Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

huh? again. I havent sad word one about ranged combat. I dont play a ranged toon even. why would I explain anything about kiting to anyone?

Pretty sure my Balance/Trip check idea would not go over well with the ranged toons though....

A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

who did I accuse of being wrong? o.O

[Grimlock]

A quote does not mean a disagreement.

Regarding comparing and and d do, I do it in terms of rules. Because that's where 3/4 of d do comes from. Now, for the people adept to disqualifying the others saying that their ideas are bad in clever ways, care to explain me how kitting is not creating a huge comparative advantage for ranged characters?

A final comment. Just because you prefer something it doesn't mean other people liking something different are wrong. I believe the op asked for our thoughts, not for a round of circle jerking. There is plenty of that already elsewhere.

Again, you have not been playing this game long enough if you think 3/4 of DDO equates to Dungeons and Dragons pnp.

[BigErkyKid]

maybe in 2006 you could make a case that 75% of the game came from PnP.... Even then... I would dissagree.... but you might of had a case...

Today.. ridiculous... 75%+ of this game has come from the devs minds adapting things from PnP to somewhat work in an online game.

huh? again. I havent sad word one about ranged combat. I dont play a ranged toon even. why would I explain anything about kiting to anyone?

Pretty sure my Balance/Trip check idea would not go over well with the ranged toons though....



who did I accuse of being wrong? o.O

I am not referring to you at all. I like your trip idea. I generally agreed with the content of your post.

[Hendrik]

Fantastic combat physics?

So your telling me you can run backwards at the same rate as you can run forwards? with the same motor control?

the silly backpedal speed in DDO is one of the biggest flaws in their game engine imo....

THey should throw a Balance check every 6 seconds. Fail and fall on your ass...

and no. I'm not generally opposed to Caster Kiters. I often kite through blade barriers as well as firewalls.

Of course, if they do something like that I really want to see them fix/remove the silly run through water slowdown and the step up animation for very short changes in elevation.

Good idea.


The next step would be something a bit more 'realistic' for jump casting/kiting.

Concentration check when you Jump? Longer reload time for ranged? Slower swing speed for melee?