Player Character Balance

[oradafu]

Monk centering blocks/disables rage effects.. a raged monk should break monk centered stance... apply to fury and centered kensai as well.
Shirardi.. cap max damage.


Add Deflection properties to armor = Armor now provides a 10% light ,20% medium ,30% heavy, reduction to damage while standing still.

Regarding Monk stances, I agree that raging should make Monks uncentered, similar to Paladins can't use their stances with any kind of rage. I'd go a step further and extend that Monk Stances don't work other classes stances, but that won't fly.

As for Deflection, you need to also include Shields in the discussion. In fact, any change to Armor needs to take shields into account also.

[Alfhild]

Monk are by NO means overpowered. Why do we see allot of monk splashes? The same reason we USED to see all the rogue splashes, evasion. Monk gets it with feats so wins.


Evasion is usefull in PnP, but not crazy so because you shouldn't be constantly encounter non-stop fireballs. Unfortunately in ddo you do (there are WAY to many casters and they hit to hard) that non-evasion toons can easily get raped.


We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!

How about armourr giving passive mitigation as well?
Total Arcane Spell Failiure of Shield + Armour -15% = passive elemental absorption?

[Sam1313]

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.


I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

I'd have to disagree with you man on this. Just because of this :https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Shiradi-build That's not a TRUE Wizard. Take a Human pure build Wizard and see if he can do the same thing. The beefing up of the Wizard class I'm talking about is for Heroic content. Most NEW players to the game (Like myself at one time) Thought it would be cool to play a Wizard because in the pen and paper game the artwork made them out to be super cool. All the movies you watch that has a Wizard in them, makes them out to be almost god-like. All the books you read plays them up as almost God-like (Elminster, Gandolf to name a few) I struggled with my Wizard from level 1 all the way to level 23 then I true reincarnated him back again as a Wizard thinking ok the +2 to spell penetration will help him this life. WRONG! so Wrong. If it wasn't for my wife playing a Cleric and a really cool Ranger in our guild carrying him through his first life he would not have made it to 23. So here he is again at level 15 struggling again. So I've basically abandoned him and went and created my favorite class of character the Ranger. Took that Ranger to lvl 28 parked him there then built another Ranger took him to 23 several times now and TR'd him. He's now on his 3rd life as a pure build Ranger and can breeze through the heroic content like its his job. As for a human pure build wizard they rock until they run out of spell points after they run out of spell points they are DONE. So my dude just sits there at level 15 all alone until they fix that class. I'm not going to spend any more MONEY on him, not going to waste any more TIME on him UNTIL they get the Wizard class to where it needs to be at. I'm happy playing a Ranger, love that class anyways so no big deal to me.

But to the new players that come to this game its gonna crush them when they build their little Wizard then run Heytons Rest, just to get creamed. I have seen soooo many new potential player do this that its really scarry. New to the game I have a level 1 wizard he's gonna rock man then they run a few quests, What ends up happening is 1 of 2 things. 1. they delete it and build something else. OR 2. They quit the game and go off to something else like Elder Scrolls or World of Animecraft or Skyrim.

[Teh_Troll]

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

Let them leave.

I'm willing to be Turbine is actually addressing this stuff now is because their game is so friggin broken it has already made people leave. I know many a barbarian enthusiast who no longer plays.

[Fhauvial]

Most NEW players to the game (Like myself at one time) Thought it would be cool to play a Wizard because in the pen and paper game the artwork made them out to be super cool. All the movies you watch that has a Wizard in them, makes them out to be almost god-like. All the books you read plays them up as almost God-like (Elminster, Gandolf to name a few)

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.



I'm done now. I swear.

[Tentaki]

Let them leave.

I'm willing to be Turbine is actually addressing this stuff now is because their game is so friggin broken it has already made people leave. I know many a barbarian enthusiast who no longer plays.

I'm actually the opposite, I actually started playing again after quitting for about a year because of the enhancement changes in U19 and the fact that it allowed me to make all sorts of new, weird builds and play around with all sorts of other abilities mixed in. New things are fun, and I like fun, so I started playing again.

I'd rather not have a lot of the fun things taken away, but rather I'd like new fun things added to the classes that aren't currently fun. In essence, adding new dimensions to barbarians, bards, paladins, *insert underpowered class here* will make me want to play those classes and keep me around longer in the game. I'm one of those people who build monk splashes into almost every build at the moment partially because monks really are powerful, but also because I enjoy stunning fists, floating and abundant stepping through the countryside and making things like a wizard/monk/fighter build where you float around silently as an unearthly specter, then smacking people with my fists at the rate of a million times a second. It pleases me.

If they made a barbarian build like the old Diablo 2 build where you built up attack and movement speed after every attack and let you tear around the coutryside as a rampaging blur of motion and chaos, I'd jump on that class in a heartbeat. Doubly so if it were also a ghost!

[Vamm]

I don't agree with some of this. Why remove a high CON pre-req and toughness to get epic toughness? Shouldn't the whole purpose of it to be for meaty characters to get meatier and not for squishies to get a random HP bump because they feel like it?

And an epic feat that gives you a Paladin's unique perk? To me, that just downgrades my desire to go Paladin.

I think the point of this thread is that each class should be worth playing as well as have that special function/purpose that another class can't easily duplicate. To encourage party cohesion and promote a mix of abilities that work well together when teamed up should be the goal of any MMO. It shouldn't be one overpowered character's show with everyone else along for the ride. Otherwise, why don't we all just go play Mass Effect or some other single-player experience of choice?

I do agree that a surgeon's touch vs. a bazooka would be more appropriate.

I'd be *really* curious what the breakdown of what the classes/races of 'regular' players across the entire base are. You would think that'd be extremely revealing on what is overpowered/underpowered given DDOs maturity.

I also agree with many posters that 'pure' classes should have more incentive to put them on par with multi-classes, likely in the form of a much better capstone. Let the choice of single vs. multi-class actually be a tough one instead of a no-brainer (funny I say that as my primary is a pure class fighter).

Anyway, I think the devs looking for this type of feedback is fantastic. Hoping good stuff comes from it. I did recommend in the survey comments and will do so here as well that it might be a good idea to link the survey on the launcher. Then those who don't read the forums regularly have a chance to participate as well and the devs get a better data sampling size.

Also, regarding the survey, might have been a good idea to have an "N/A" option, in the event you're not familiar with a particular ED or class. Wouldn't want to skew the data unnecessarily.

Other things to look at...

Offer an improved range of Epic Feats:
(same category as Epic Toughness)
-Epic Toughness change Prerequisite CON to 19 so non heavy vested con based toons can access (remove toughness pre-req)
-Evasion - Prerequisite: Dex 19 = successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage (doesn't stack with class evasion)
-Divine Grace - Prerequisite: CHA 19 = CHA bonus to Saves (same as paladin does not stack with paladin)
-Divine Mana Regen Passive - Regen Mana 1 SP/min per Divine Caster Level.
-Divine Shield - passive - Absorbs Melee damage into healing energy 5% chance
-Divine Step - Abundant step/wings effect 2 minute cooldown.
.. add some more stuff... like things that dipping classes might provide.. Epic should tighten the gap between classes.

.....

The whole playing field does need some adjusting. but do it smart .. a surgeon doesn't use a bazooka to fix stuff..

[mons]

I'd like to add another broad area to that list: pure-class versus multi-class.

I feel that not only should every single class be viable and able to contribute, but that every single class when pure-classed should be viable and able to contribute.

For me, that should be the basic starting point for balancing classes, and multi-class measured against that yard-stick.

I don't mind if someone figures out clever, synergistic combinations that are a bit more powerful overall, but there should be trade-offs. Multi-classing should never be a no-brainer, and pure-class should never be an outright bad choice.

Traditionally in D&D, multi-classes, being less specialized, had less raw power, balanced with more versatility. It seems in some cases in DDO, they get more versatility AND more power, making pure-classes strictly inferior.

The enhancement pass contributed a lot to this. I think a hard look at capstones is in order.

And, though I know some people will hate it, perhaps revisiting the class levels needed for each tier of enhancement. Personally, I think 1/3/6/9/12 would be more appropriate than 1/2/3/4/5.

I couldnt agree more with all of this. Adding to it, I would say 5/10/15 is even better. Being specialized in 1 area of combat type should be a bonus, not a hinderance.

[Sam1313]

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.



I'm done now. I swear.

[Sam1313]

I couldnt agree more with all of this. Adding to it, I would say 5/10/15 is even better. Being specialized in 1 area of combat type should be a bonus, not a hinderance.

Agreed.

[Delacroix21]

How about armourr giving passive mitigation as well?
Total Arcane Spell Failiure of Shield + Armour -15% = passive elemental absorption?

That could be possible, but I think we should stick to static numbers.
10% light armor (these guys SHOULD have evasion)
20% medium
30% heavy

Shields follow a similar pattern
20% buckler + light shield (big bonus due to massive dps loss)
30% heavy shield (same big bonus due to massive dps loss)
40% tower shield (tanks will take 30% damage from spells, making them viable, but dps with shields is poor to compensate)

[Uska]

I see your Wizard and raise you one Cleric.



I'm done now. I swear.

I love it!

[Grailhawk]

Class Improvements

1) Bards need better songs and the songs they have now need to scale better. They should also have a song to boost universal spell power. Finally all songs need to be untyped buffs so that they will stack with every thing.

2) Paladins need class level bonus that come after level 4. These bonuses need to be unique to the class, examples could be adding additional smites or increasing the currents smites abilities based on class level not enhancements.

3) Barbarians need to have there DR scale better and need additional forms of damage mitigation. temp HP regeneration on cirt/vorpals for instance might be an example.

Reajustments

1) Monk stances need to be reworked the best defensive stance should not have the best or second best offence. Reworking the stances to have Fire focused on DPS, Wind on Speed, Water on wisdom based tactics, and Earth on Defense should be looked into. The suggestion, that others have made, to move the crit multiplier to fire stance is probably all that needs to be done but other changes could be looked (making the crit multiplier worth with only monk weapons not centered weapons for instance). It is these stances and how easy they are to get that make monks and monk splashes in the current game over powder.

2) Master Blitz needs a nerf either its +% bonus needs to be significantly dropped or it needs to have a much shorter duration.

3) Manyshot + 10K Starts needs to be addressed. Either create a feat version of 10k Starts that works off dex (ideally Rangers would get this as an auto grant) that anyone can take or make it so that activation of Manyshot puts 10k starts on a 120 second cooldown and activation of 10k Starts puts manyshot on a 60 second cooldown. You should also consider removing the penalty to double shot when neither ability is active.

4) Either change the description of Fury Eternal to include ranged combat or correct it so that it will not function with ranged combat.


IMO these are the major issues with balance in the game at the moment, and the only ones that really need to be looked at.

[Delacroix21]

I would like to see bards get a buff, they really are black sheep here outclassed by arties in the jack of all trades by far.

[Faltout]

Hi, I'll get right on topic.

PLAYSTYLES:

First of all, in this game we have 2 major playstyles. Soloing and teamwork. Both are acceptable and we don't want to see anything get ruined. Now that we have established that let's look into those 2 playstyles and how they should work. Teamwork is all about roles that characters fill.
Crowd Controll: Maybe one CC the mobs, or if we don't have CC because noone built for it then let's aggro some of the mobs and wait in the corner so we can get them 1 or 2 at a time (that's CC too).
Kiting: while a ranger, monk, rogue can be very good at that so can anyone else.
DPSing: That is a build that has some decent DPS to use on a single mob.
Splash damaging: If we want to get work faster done and we are confident that we won't get too much aggro we can start dealing some splash damage to get things done quicker and to save the DPSer from having to deal with everything.
Avoiding traps: That's really a skill anyone should have (time and run past a trap), but that's what some builds do for a living.
Setting the mobs: What a tank needs to do is make sure the mobs that hit him will not hit the party and also that they are available in the best position for the DPSer(s).
Teamwork should be the most effective way to complete a quest/raid. You can see I didn't mention any particular builds but there should be builds that can do the above in almost every party. A build can do many of the above (not none).
So here is the REAL question. How many of the above a build can do? If you are planning on running solo you should be able to do most of them (CC, DPS, traps, splash damage). BUT: you shouldn't be able to do all of those as well as a specialized build can. That's what we want to see nerfed.

MULTICLASSING:

Multiclassing (if done right) doesn't provide any penalty. In fact it takes some of the best abilities from each class multiclassed. That's simply not right. That way you can make builds that do all teamwork should do. So what we have now is a couple of those builds running a quest together each one soloing their way through. Basically one of them could solo the quest, but now we have 6 of them. The mobs don't stand a chance.
Now what is the proper way to address multiclassing? Make the enhancements cost 2, 1.3, etc. for multiclasses is WRONG and very time consuming as the whole system needs redesigning. Let's look at it in a more natural way. You start training as a paladin. You get some abilities to help you against monsters at first levels. Then you train some more as a paladin. You now are able to make much more use of the abilities you previously learned and learn some new ones.
The above in the current enhancement system is implemented only by AP. The more you level, you gain more AP. But that has nothing to do with the class you train. And that's where the problem lies. Abilities aquired in low levels of your class should upgrade as you gain levels in the same class. To maintain the power that capped characters have right now, abilities in low levels should be less effective than they are now. The same goes for skills and feats although way harder to implement. Disable Device shouldn't be a class skill when you are training as a wizard. That said, it could possibly mean that no longer being able to max those skills will result in solo trapping ruined. But I'm suggesting that trap DCs be lowered to a limit where the wizard/rogue can barely get them depending on his ability to find the gear/INT/multiclass mix.
This nerfs a build that can do all and boosts a build that specializes in something by giving the specialized build the exclusiveness of being the most powerful at what it does while being weak in other areas thus maintaining balance. (Again saying that solo is still viable but not at hardest difficulty or not as efficiently).

HOW DOES PLAYER POWER EFFECT ME:

So why do I want to see multiclassing and extreme synergy nerfed when it's fun for some players and it doesn't effect me since I can make other builds? Because monster DCs, HP, tactics of difficult content are designed based on player power. People keep saying that it's the inflated HPs of the mobs in end-game that make those overpowered builds the only option while it's the other way around. The overpowered builds caused the inflated HP of the mobs in end-game content because the devs wanted to present a challenge to the playerbase. By giving more power in general and not nerfing what is, the monsters need to get tougher to reflect the player power. That actually ruins the builds that focus only on one thing leaving vulnerabilities hoping the party will cover those vulnerabilities with a proper paystyle. When the trash mobs that a tank is trying to take on are hitting like a boss mob, it's because there were builds that could actually stand in the middle of a horde of monsters and not get seriously hurt.
Nerfing player power would most likely cause problems with the current overpowered mobs. So when redesigning player power the devs should also address again the monster power to reflect the change.

TL;DR
Multiclassing should be a pretty viable option for someone that wants to fill many roles a party needs but should be less effective at all those roles. Specializing in a role should give bonuses beyond imagination in that role while leaving no room for other role specializations. Class enhancements, feats, skills should be more tied to class rather than just character level.
The above include the proposals already in the thread:
- Boost the capstones
- Nerf the monster power along with player power
- Reduce synergies
- Make enhancements consider class level instead of character level (+feats, +skills ex. Manyshot raise num of arrows at ranger levels)

[Seikojin]

...snip...
We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!

Regarding Monk stances, I agree that raging should make Monks uncentered, similar to Paladins can't use their stances with any kind of rage. I'd go a step further and extend that Monk Stances don't work other classes stances, but that won't fly.

As for Deflection, you need to also include Shields in the discussion. In fact, any change to Armor needs to take shields into account also.

I too think Rage should uncenter you. Save an enhancement or feat that allows it.

However, I think what I said earlier for Armor feats, shield feats and two weapon blocking would help bolster melee significantly for the targeted playstyles that want to S&B and also not be a backpack slot waiting to fill.

[Daze]

One other thing I would like to note:

ED XP should be able to be funneled to a central karma pool. Off destiny XP should be able to be garnered while in main destiny ... at a loss.

Epic TR are independent of heroic but as it is now .... it is not, as it requires being in a different build to maximize the use of the destiny.

[Delacroix21]

I would still like a focus on reducing EE monster damage, to-hit (for AC to matter), HP, and saves.


It is rare for the community to agree on something, but when we do it should move to the top of the pile.

[Oxarhamar]

The enhachement pass 1,2,3,4,5 levels for Tiers of enhancements was one of the best things to happen to this game in a long time it has made playing interesting builds viable keep it.

Playing my 6 Artificer 8 Fighter 6 Ranger Kensei Repeater build is too much fun.



I'm going to counter those that are all calling for Nerf bat on LD, FoTW, & Shiradi and say consider looking at the other destinies and improving them to be viable so we have a more of a choice.


On a side note running a Sorc in Draconic for most quests is superior to Shiradi DPS as long as you have enough shrines Shiradi is just more SP efficient.


I totally Agree that capstones should be boosted for those who do not want to Multiclass.

[Sebastrd]

FYI: We're still following along. I'm not personally quite caught up on the 10+ pages produced in the past few hours, but I have seven pages of notes on what I've ready through so far, which has been very helpful in showing some areas players are concerned about, and probably producing some items to focus on when looking for additional feedback (including some things only a few or even one person brought up but remain good topics of discussion). This is intentionally a broad look and overview right now, and especially is not supposed to be us (the developers) telling you the problems we're looking at. We haven't even fully defined "What counts as a problem" and we're absolutely trying to get you guys to help us answer that question, rather than focusing the discussion on narrower issues before finding out what you even think are issues.

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

In my opinion, it's anything that dictates choices to the player.

If Monks was not overpowered then why is it that almost every character in the game is splashed with Monk?

Posts like this miss the point. Players don't splash monk because it's overpowered; they splash monk because evasion is necessary. There's a difference. That's why nerfing monk won't fix the problem.

If everyone splashes for evasion because they need it to survive, taking away evasion doesn't fix the problem. If everyone runs ranged DPS because staying within arms' reach of an EE mob is suicide, nerfing ranged DPS doesn't fix the problem. If everyone multiclasses because pure class builds are too narrowly focused, one-trick ponies, nerfing multiclassing doesn't fix the problem. If all casters are in Shiradi because EE mobs' HP are inflated to the point that Shiradi procs on cheap spells are the only option for taking them down, nerfing Shiradi doesn't fix the problem.