Player Character Balance

[nibel]

Which, as I said, is unrelated to wearing robes or not. Any body slot item, be it Full Plate or Robes, has it's Dodge cap directly from it's Max Dex Bonus. Robes have no Max Dex Bonus, therefore, robes have no Dodge cap. I'm talking about equipment. The fact that characters have an overall Dodge cap is not relevant.

If you actually have any evidence of your claim that robes have some kind of built-in Dodge cap, I'd still like to see it.

Now, that is just discussing semantics. You got the point I was making.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

You MUST consider the fact that not every player will have the hand/eye coordination, manual dexterity and mental capacity for tactics and decision making to get 100% of a perfectly built/tomed/geared/macroed FoTM's DPS capabilities.

If one could imagine a bell-curve distribution of % of Player base on Y and % of a builds DPS potential on the X then it would show a very low % of players (due to variable factors mentioned above would) excel with a build getting close to if not 100% of a FoTM and correspondingly low % would get rubbish DPS out of the same build.

Also, this fictional example would show the vast majority of the populace are only getting around 60-70% of a builds potential.

It's also in a vacuum....and really has nothing at all to do with anything due to individual subjective fun factor.

IF YOU REALLY WANT BALANCE.....Fix the content to be in line with 60%-70% of your player base and leave room for some to shine and some to fail because not everyone HAS to get a Ribbon/Medal.

[Hathorian]

Lovely. Another round of sledgehammer nerfs are on the way.

Please don't nerf my characters!!!!

There are a variety of quest levels and difficulties and different builds are stronger or weaker at different levels. The same build options are available for all players. If someone isn't happy with their build they can always improve or change it, the same as everyone else.

[LOOON375]

With regard to an easy fix, would be to make some tier one and two abilities tier three and tier four abilities.

Take the monk destiny tree for example: I believe the bonus to reflex saves is a tier 4 ability. While in every other tree, that's a tier one or tier two (shadowdancer) ability.

The tier one ability of 1.5 (W) unarmed damage bonus could/should be tier three or four. IMHO

[nibel]

I have always had the assumption that nerfing blitz/furyshot/whatever would go hand in hand with nerfing mob hp and damage in EE. (EH seems about right.) If they actually nerfed the OP abilities but didn't adjust EE, that would be a tragic mistake.

This. Remember this.

Take the monk destiny tree for example: I believe the bonus to reflex saves is a tier 4 ability. While in every other tree, that's a tier one or tier two (shadowdancer) ability.

Just a little nitpick, while I understand the critique on the Fortitute/Will enhancements, GMoF Reflex enhancement is the only way to get a no-fail-on-1 on Reflex (aside from Epic Reflex), thus is it superior than the Magister/Draconic +6 reflex tier 1 twists.

[Dalsheel]

The tier one ability of 1.5 (W) unarmed damage bonus could/should be tier three or four. IMHO

...or tier5 so it can't be twisted. You want Dance of Flowers to go along your eSoS? Fine, but you must be in GmoF to get it, forget blitz!

[SirValentine]

Now, that is just discussing semantics. You got the point I was making.

It's not. I got the point you were making and was disagreeing with it. Did you get the point _I_ am making?

If you want the PRR system to work analogous to the Dodge system, Heavy Armor should have no PRR cap, just as robes/outfits have no Dodge cap.

[Fhauvial]

Balance in D&D is not a new problem. Many of the issues that existed in 3.5e (and other editions) seem to have carried over into DDO. Not all classes were created equal in PnP, but this was balanced by the DM creating encounters in which everyone could contribute.

Many years ago a 3.5e DM wrote something called Tier System for Classes. It's an excellent read, and I think a few points are particularly applicable here:

My general philosophy is that the only balance that really matters in D&D is the interclass balance between the various PCs in a group. If the group as a whole is very powerful and flexible, the DM can simply up the challenge level and complexity of the encounters. If it's weak and inflexible, the DM can lower the challenge level and complexity. Serious issues arise when the party is composed of some members which are extremely powerful and others which are extremely weak, leading to a situation where the DM has two choices: either make the game too easy for the strong members, or too hard for the weak members. Neither is desireable.

If equally skilled players join a high-level quest, and one class completely dominates the quest while others struggle to contribute, you have a balance problem. The issue in DDO is both one of content design and character abilities. Some abilities are so far and above others there's really no comparison. When you design content towards players using these abilities, you create a serious balance problem. You've widened the gap between the class tiers, and geared the content towards the top two tiers.

In other words, you've just broken the game.

The Tiers

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

The above two tiers are your current FotM builds.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

This is everyone else in the game.

Do you see the problem? When you design content that only caters to a small subset of builds, the rest of the population feels left out. Some players enjoy playing pure builds, and shouldn't be punished for doing so. The content, as it stands, isn't particularly difficult either--it's just dialed up to 9000. Designing challenging encounters isn't just about inflating monster stats and the number of mobs that spawn. There's much more to it than that, and much of the new content seems like lazy design to me (no offense).

Sirgog hit the nail on the head earlier in this thread:

The state of balance in the game is terrible.

At the 20 cap, there were several 'best' archetypes for character builds and many more that were good. To list a few, ALL of which were viable in speedruns of the harder content:

- Primarily healing divine (viable but mediocre)
- Offensive casting divine (top-notch)
- Melee divine, monk splash (solid)
- Melee divine, no splash (mediocre)
- Evasion melee warchanter (solid)
- No evasion melee warchanter (solid)
- Spellsinger with Enchantment DC casting (fringe viable)
- Spellsinger with personal melee capability (fringe)
- Rogue, TWF Khopesh all-out DPS (solid)
- Barbarian melee DPS (solid)
- 'Wall of HP' Stalwart fighter (top-notch in some raids, meh in 6 person content)
- AC/HP Stalwart fighter (solid in some raids, absolutely incredible in others)
- Barbarian 'wall of HP' tank/DPS hybrid (fringe)
- Paladin self-healing tank with or without AC (fringe)
- Enchantment WF wizard with DoTs (top-notch)
- Necro WF wizard with DoTs (top-notch)
- Necro Pale Master with Torc (the best build)

That's just a few archetypes that come to mind.

Now we have Monkchers if you want to do physical damage, and Shiradis if you want to cast spells as the ONLY top-notch builds, and Master's Blitz and Fury of the Wild as the ONLY other viable builds. Everything else is so far behind that it is ridiculous. And now content has been designed that (at least on EE) assumes all players have one of these broken builds.



The solution is simple but a lot of work.

First, nerf the hell out of Furyshot and Blitz and Shiradi, with the goal of reducing their effectiveness to at most 105% of the effectiveness of other characters.
Secondly, rebalance all of the quests that were designed under the assumption that players are using broken builds. If optimal group DPS falls from 50000 party-wide to 20000, then mobs need to lose 60% of their HP.
Third, there'll be a couple of people that whine over the nerf (despite the fact that their characters are still capable of completing quests in about the same amount of time and with the same overall difficulty). Grease the door, so that it DOES hit them on the way out. Hard. These people are poison - let them go and ruin a competing MMO.
Finally, offer some form of respec options to players whose characters are significantly broken by the change, ideally including the option to 'respec' now-useless Ranger past lives into different passive past life feats.



Edit: Perfect balance is unattainable. That is no excuse for having a situation that is so unbalanced that only 2-3 builds are even remotely viable. In Heroic levels, Sorcerers are significantly overpowered compared to every other class, but the Fighter doesn't feel totally useless in most content.

You should really listen to this. It won't be easy, but it's the right way to do things.

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. I'll leave it at that for time's sake, but I may have more to add as the discussion continues. I'm curious where other players would rate certain builds on the Tier System, but that might deserve a thread of it's own (or maybe this is the perfect place)?