Player Character Balance

[Uska]

You are both right AND wrong.

There, now lets stay away from the OLD D&D vs DDO debate.

After reading some great posts by the community, I see a lot of references to the AC/PRR vs evasion & dodge. (which includes me)

I still think the majority have overlooked the fact that balancing classes (or attempting to) is just one piece of the pie.


Refer to my post early in this thread.

My main point is and always has been not all classes should have reliable self-healing its just power-gaming baloney to have become so.

[Ancient]

Proposed Solution: Leave Shiradi alone. There should be a casting destiny for first life toons. Instead, buff Draonic Hunger to be per comparable to Just Rewards from the FvS tree. Consider replacing Fearsome Invulnerability with something better. A tanking epic moment for a casting dps destiny is weird. Finally, be mindful of too much save inflation on mobs. That is the only reason that Shiradi sees as much usage as it does.

Note that come U21.1, Exalted Angel will be a better DC destiny than Draconic for Sorcerers (but not Wizards, due to the lack of an Int option). It will also compete reasonably with Shiradi. Nuker wizards get comparable results when analyzed, though they have more that pushes them to Shiradi (their SLAs fit better there than they do with the draconic, since the evo ones don't allow saves except Cyclonic, which has had broken damage for a long time).

A shiradi wizard is very close to the power level of a shiradi sorc. I am of the opinion that arcane supremacy puts the wiz a little bit ahead, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

A cold based draconic sorc is far better DPS than a shiradi. It is also directable DPS. Unless there are just two mobs, a shiradi either drops back to their slower single target DPS, or rolls the dice on who dies next. A cold savant has polar ray and frost bolt SLAs that do more damage and do not suffer from this issue. Draconic also gives enough AOE attacks (at higher levels for a pure sorc) that the AOE attacks also favor draconic. The key strategic difference is that a well played shiradi will have more endurance than a pure sorc draconic, and on the other hand, a well played draconic can get 2+ kills for every one a shiradi gets while they have spell points.

I agree with your conclusion, but the hate is strong in this group. There is a desire to nerf what they don't like rather than what is truly broken. I haven't seen a community this disfunctional since I played city of heroes... and I'm wondering if we are headed to the same fate.

[Ancient]

My main point is and always has been not all classes should have reliable self-healing its just power-gaming baloney to have become so.

That ship has sailed, better luck next game (of course, I and many others wouldn't play the game you describe... so it would likely remain in obscurity). Online game balance has different issues and priorities than a pen and paper game.

[Qhualor]

In order do like what you say they would have to reduce the number of mobs in each dungeon and their hp dramatically and you cant say what I can and cant or should support. I will never support all classes having healing not matter what else occurs. DDO just like dnd breaks down once you get above level 10 or so and in epic its just stupid. That's why I rarely play epic other than trying to get tokens to tr again and yah tr adds a lot but that's another story

if you aren't playing epics, than why should we listen to your opinion on survivability and not allowing barbs to have better self sufficiency?

in heroics, mostly CSW pots are good enough and you don't really feel the scaling until mid levels. in epics, mobs are hitting you for 300+ damage constantly. not many people want to play the role of healer, which means barbs need better self sufficiency than what they have already. im not even suggesting they be able to umd while raged or be able to multi class monk/paladin for better saves. all im suggesting is either remove the penalties from SF pots or develop similar pots instead, or develop enhancements that can boost the amount of healing received from pots that would be on par with what other classes are able to do at 0 sacrifice, or develop enhancements in FOTW that has some kind of life stealing to regain hp and to improve the barbs DR and PRR to actually matter in epics. their DR is a complete joke that needs to scale better.

[chrisdinus7]

Arrow of Slaying does work with manyshot, and 4k dmg arrow is about the minimum it's going to do (it can exceed 10k per arrow).

Yeah, a volley of 4 is starting to get excessive, especially in the build with the highest burst damage anyway. For 10k damage, are you referring to the case where the target is helpless? That is the only common way I see of getting that high. If not, I'd love to know the breakdown.

Without helpless, I figure you are looking at perhaps 150 base arrow damage + 250 slaying + 20 seeker. Maybe 420 an arrow, roughly. Multiply by 3 for a critical, and 4 for adrenaline, and that gets you to 5,040. On a 19 or a 20 (which only occurs once every 3 min 20s, on average), you get what? +1 multiple from earth stance, +1 from overwhelming critical. Then you are at 420 * 5 * 4 = 8,400. Not sure where else you'd get multiplier from on a typical build. Being fury rules out the +crit from primal or LD. If you went barb instead of monk I could see it on a 19 or 20, due to the higher crit multiplier. Or, I guess if you stacked up 20 stacks of vulnerable, that'd get you there (10,080). Plus, going all out, you could have someone in EA render them an additional 25% vulnerable to physical, and get to 12,180. Of course, being a bit silly, if you combined that with rendering them helpless (with the +30% from ninja spy and +30% from fury), you'd get 2.1 times that, around 25k - per arrow. It'd make an amusing screen shot to strike a guy for a 100k volley, but a bit impractical to setup.

But again, rather than nerfing archery in general or fury shot in specific - if slaying arrow is all that is causing the issue, then change slaying arrow. Don't break other abilities / combinations just because of one new ability.

[Recared]

Balance never existed in DDO and people who speak of a game history were classes lived in perfect harmony are basically referring to an idealized version of the past that never really happened.

Back whenn I started playing in 2008 there also was only a handful of "viable" builds:
Arcane dps = sorcerer. They could do everything a Wizard could just better (same DCs, cover all useful spells.
CC = Dancing Ball or Web (for mobs immune to mental compulsions)
Best mob dps = Dexterity based TWF.
Best boss dps = Strength based TWF.
Best trapper = Arcane Trickster (18 Wiz / 2 Rog); fully Int specc'ed gave higher trap skills and (with Insightful Reflexes) better Evasion than Rogue's could ever hope achieve.

Things haven't really changed over the years, fixes usually only achieved to replace one class combination with another (ie: replacing the supremacy of Tempest builds with Frenzied Berserker after the twf fix/nerf).

It is my opinion that there are only two things that actually unbalance the game worse than it used to be:

Ranged (including spell dps) vs melee
===========================
We are pitted against a script based AI and it is the nature of /any/ script based AI the more variables it has to deal with the less well it performs. Simply put, the further away we stand the dumber the AI gets. That allows ranged toons to already start out with an advantage.

It is a misconception that ranged out-dps melee, but the gap is not large. So they do almost as decent damage while being able to use distance, evasion, twitch skills to mitigate incoming damage.

Melee, on the other hand, are pitted against a more effective AI (it is simply easier for the AI to figure out how to hit the thing the physics engine says is right next to it) with no way of mitigating the damage. Now an an arena where it only takes 3-4 hit to fell even the mot sturdy toon melee toons can no longer deliver persistent dps and are at constant risk. Ranged are at little risk while still being able to deliver persistent dps.

Easiest way to fix this would be either lower mob damage in EE again or provide melee with better ways to mitigate the damage (ie: drastically increase PRR)

Unarmored (Pajama) vs heavy armor builds
===============================
Currently the comparison looks like this:

* Unarmored (Pajama): decent PRR, vastly superior dodge, superior concealment (incorporeal), superior mobility, superior crit range and superior dps (centered Kensai, Earth Stance), superior spell defense (Evasion)
* heavy armor: superior PRR (but only marginally better damage mitigation due to diminishing returns), vastly inferior dodge, inferior concealment, limitations to mobility, less dps (doubly so even using S&B), highly vulnerable to spell damage (no evasion and often low reflex saves)

It used to be that going heavy armor meant giving up dps for a superior defense and higher survivability (which already was only useful in a couple boss fights in a handful of raids). Now heavy armor means giving up dps to an inferior defense and lower survivability.

I think the best solution here would be to drastically increase the (defensive) benefit of armors and shields:

* increase the PRR of all types of armor significantly.
* increase the PRR benefit of holding a shield significantly
* increase the PRR benefit of defensive stances (Stalwart and Syberis)
* make Shield Deflecting a passive feat that does /not/ require blocking and stacks with all other sources of energy absorption.
* include generous sources of healing amplification into the higher tiers of the defensive trees (Stalwart and Syberis)
* personally I also would change barbarian DR into a PRR bonus. DR 3/- simply does not cut it in current endgame anymore. You'd translate each point of DR into five PRR it could become useful again.

Generally I do not see a problem with EE mobs being able to 3 or 4 shot an unarmored combatant (who already has dodge, incorporeal and evasion to mitigate damage) or a magic user (who can easily displace himself and operate at a safer distance), but a heavy armor type should not share the same fate. There is no point in wearing heavy armor (or armor at all) if it does not provide with significant enough protection against (mundane) damage.

/agreed

Great synthesis. Subscribe your conclusions and proposals. Also:

PRR could cap at 75% not 60%, and change curve form (less exponential at very low levels).
DR could be applied after PRR, not before.
Energy resistance could be applied after energy absorption (help mitigate the fact of not having evasion).

Gyga

[Delacroix21]

If you define Furyshotting as merely using your epic moment, then you are correct. But you have 7 Adrenalines (or more since they can refresh) which can be manually expended in conjunction with Slaying Arrows + Manyshot/10Kstars prior to using the epic moment.

Yes for more burst, but overall less sustained dps then meele.

[Powerhungry]

In an effort to make melee viable, prr needs to be addressed.
Instead of diminishing returns, make prr a linear progression - 1 point of prr give .5% damage mitigation. Yes, this means with a prr of 200 it gives you 100% damage mitigation. Very few builds can attain that and they sacrifice a lot to get it. What's the difference if melee takes 0 damage from a hit vs. a moncher with dodge, evasion, displacement, blur and incorporeality running all over and never getting hit? -They both take no damage and melee becomes survivable in all content. As a balance, red named can bypass 5% prr and purple named 10%. So with a prr of 180 you get 90% damage mitigation - that 1000 point hit becomes 100 (150 vs. red and 200 vs. purple). It wil still take 10 minutes to pound EE critters into submission, but at least melee might have a chance to survive it for awhile.

[Captain_Wizbang]

My main point is and always has been not all classes should have reliable self-healing its just power-gaming baloney to have become so.

Uska, I totally agree. Knowing the main gist of your views when it comes to PnP vs DDO I tend to read your posts with an open mind.

Old school vs this new era of min/max (look at my uberness) is a big sticking point with me.

If I have to pug, I quickly drop groups with people of the later mentality.

And it appears that all the recent changes in the last 2 years has led us to this thread started by a dev.

I'm still miffed from the Tempest TWF nerf from 3 years ago. The "reason" (excuse) was bandwidth allocation. But yet we have all these companions, skins, etc that I'm sure eats up said bandwidth.

Don't give fighters & Barbs self healing, rather take a look at what was done to healing specked toons.

Some people say, don't nerf stuff, rather increase attributes of weaker classes in certain areas. And THAT brings us closer to the point of a watered down, mass build game.

Part of the ORIGINAL draw to this game was how each class plays a role, and has limitations.
With the advent of Epic Destinies, we can transcend those boundaries.

We screamed on here for MORE MORE MORE, well we got it.
Now, we are talking about back-peddling.

Turbine has a lot less people to facilitate ANY changes we're discussing, and I fear the outcome of this thread won't be what the game really needs.

Again https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5290843

[Delacroix21]

The same thing happens continuously=
1. Whining about "monkerchers" (its a popular class, so used to be wiz/rog, sorc/pal, tempests, barbs, etc. etc. etc. get over it)
2. Whining about shiradi casters (its impossible to EE as a caster without it, nerfing shiradi will screw all casters out of EE)
3. Whining about Fury (burst not sustained for ranged) and Blitz (its self limiting in requiring killing blows, and meele have a hard time surviving EE anyway)
4. Whining about pure builds (it takes a lot of thought to multiclass well, and this is the best and most unique feature to ddo!)


What has been stated repeatedly to fix=
1. Reduce EE monster saves, HP, to-hit, and damage
2. Increase value of high ACs (not just heavy armor) and shields (by lowering monster to-hits will help)
3. Buff WEAK EDs and epic moments, dont nerf the few good ones




I am all for nerfs WHEN THEY ARE CALLED FOR (ie. one build stomping everything) but we do NOT have that situation in DDO right now. We have MANY builds and several EDs that are epic and worthwhile. Devs please dont cater to a couple whiners and nerf the abilities that are balanced enough. Please nerf monsters and buff weak PrEs and EDs.

[Uska]

Let's look at this in a different scope devs.

Roll back the clock to April 2007 with Mod 4 "Reaver's Bane"

Content was designed to challenge ALL classes.
At that time level cap was raised to 14.
Vorpals, smiters etc worked on a crit roll not 20.
Casters were more aware of mana usage.
Intim-tanks were just that, and no other class could do their job.
In fact all classes main attributes were unique unto themselves.

What does this have to do with the OP?
We had decent, not great balance between classes AND content.

This whole solo-ability on EE, (hard in 2007) was unheard of, or very rare.

We can all debate what class needs what, or taken away, but it pointless if the content doesn't match, challenge or "require" certain attributes from the classes as a whole.

When casters are better trap-monkeys than rogues, monks better at intim & threat generation than traditional intim-tanks, etc... the point is VERY PLAIN to see.

Devs, you messed with game mechanics, and totally deflated the value of AC, PRR in favor of evasion & dodge.
You messed with character development so much (with the long awaited enhancement pass) that true builds are passe, and pretty much bottle-necked us all with a splash of monk to be on a competitive with the min/max scenario. The new raids bosses, almost require a ranged attack.

You also screwed up the balance with loot when Faerun content was released. It made ToD sets almost worthless. DT armor went in the bank, and Greensteel took a back seat to all the new weps.

You FAILED to design content/ gear & characters in harmony with each other. Plain & simple.

It's a simple fix (lol) make AC, Intim, PRR, count again. Take away the NEED for evasion & dodge and reward those that focus in their chosen fields. Revamp the rewards for true builds (because what we have now is less than viable)

You all have done amazing things with this game, but continually shoot yourselves in the foot with lack of insight and planning in regards to content, gear & characters on the same page.

Roll back the special weapon attributes (vorpal on a crit, not a natural 20)
Put restrictions on multi-classing to accommodate older and/or true builds.
Take away some of the monk's "power", ability to "master" everything, and the new nonsense of "requiring" a splash to be competitive.
Take a look at how armor & ac/prr work (again)

As for content, why spend time and money to design stuff we only run once.

Another point to consider, create a quest setting that requires a balanced party. What the heck, we have a solo setting SO...........

yup

[Uska]

Uska, I totally agree. Knowing the main gist of your views when it comes to PnP vs DDO I tend to read your posts with an open mind.

Old school vs this new era of min/max (look at my uberness) is a big sticking point with me.

If I have to pug, I quickly drop groups with people of the later mentality.

And it appears that all the recent changes in the last 2 years has led us to this thread started by a dev.

I'm still miffed from the Tempest TWF nerf from 3 years ago. The "reason" (excuse) was bandwidth allocation. But yet we have all these companions, skins, etc that I'm sure eats up said bandwidth.

Don't give fighters & Barbs self healing, rather take a look at what was done to healing specked toons.

Some people say, don't nerf stuff, rather increase attributes of weaker classes in certain areas. And THAT brings us closer to the point of a watered down, mass build game.

Part of the ORIGINAL draw to this game was how each class plays a role, and has limitations.
With the advent of Epic Destinies, we can transcend those boundaries.

We screamed on here for MORE MORE MORE, well we got it.
Now, we are talking about back-peddling.

Turbine has a lot less people to facilitate ANY changes we're discussing, and I fear the outcome of this thread won't be what the game really needs.

Again https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5290843

yah on the plus side though I am in a couple of good pnp groups now that I have moved to real city so DDO's importance for my gaming fix has been reduced by a large margin so I can afford to be a little more nit picky.

[zwiebelring]

If Vargouille stated it was easier nerfing a few strong options for players instead aspects of monsters then this whole discussion is obsolete. Turbine sticks to its way of least resistance, while aspects, which were mentioned very often in this thread keep being ignored due to ressource management.

Well, then don't implement it in the first place! Now everything the dev.s do, will be frustrating. There is no balance when you tune down everything to the power level of the weakest class/ED/special attack.

Regarding the things you like to find a rhyme for, Manyshot is okay as it is... well, remove double shot penalty. You need to do is an overhaul of Fury of The Wild. And maybe make Mnk enhancement trees less frontloaded.

But epic elite mob stats being ignored... rather don't do anything at all, so at least there are no new bugs.

p.s.: I cannot share the humor about amercian overtoads, Vargouille. You people get our money for making this game fun, not for inventing new words. Harsh but true.

[FlaviusMaximus]

...
1. Reduce EE monster saves, HP, to-hit, and damage

I like the idea of monsters' saves being lowered for the benefit of melee tacticians in order to help balance out the dangers of being in melee, but I don't like the idea of monster saves being lowered so that insta-killing can return to dominance. Nothing would screw melees over more than that scenario. Perhaps tactics need a boost. There's no better damage mitigation than a mob on its butt. But then if tactics are made too effective, do cc characters find themselves out of a job? Oh what a can of worms...

It's kind of funny that a lot of this thread is a discussion of how to get ranged combat more balanced with melee combat, because in the real world, ranged combat is obviously far superior. The rules of logic almost have to be broken to get the two types of combat more in line. It's necessary to do it though, because as many playstyles as possible need to be supported and encouraged in the game. (insta-killing too, but within reason...)

yup

Would it be at all be possible not to copy and paste walls of text just to put one word or one sentence responses underneath them? This request is actually directed toward a few people.

[Cyr]

• Make Prism/Rainbow/Double Rainbow only procs once per second. (This remove multi-procs from magic missiles and such)
• Make Nerve Venom procs only on ranged attacks (you poison your arrows, not your fingertips to fly with your spell)
• Make Adrenaline and Slayer Arrows only affect the first arrow in a Manyshot/10k/Doubleshot hit.
  
  • If the engine can't work out to make it only hit on the first arrow, turn it into bane damage, and NOT multiplied on crits.
• Make Fury Eternal only works on melee vorpals.
• Make Blitz starts at full power, but only lasting 20~60 seconds, to match every other Epic Moment. (What makes Blitz so powerful is not the bonus, but how you can keep it up the whole quest)
• Move the monk extra crit multiplier from Earth Stance to Fire Stance. Earth is supposed to be the tanking stance. Fire is supposed to be the offensive one. Make it so.
• Remove the Reconstruction SLA from Bladeforged tree. Paladin Bladeforgeds can survive having access to only Repair Critical Wounds, just like non-Bladeforged paladins.

I think that properly nerf everything people are afraid of being nerfed. Make it so.

Yeah that would probably get about a quarter of my guild to quit overnight.

[Trillea]

Yeah that would probably get about a quarter of my guild to quit overnight.

Only a quarter?

[Ancient]

I think that properly nerf everything people are afraid of being nerfed. Make it so.

Why stop there:

• Greensteel displacement clickies should have a 5 minute cool down, the most powerful avoidance spell in the game should not be obtained without any build drawbacks.
• Extra-turns should not provide any turns until the class actually has turns. Not realistic ya know.
• +SP items should not work on builds without magical training (Bards should get magical training)
• Runspeed should be cut in half if a character has been running more than 20 out of the last 30 seconds.
• More mobs should equip deathward items, same for resistance/absorption items
• Weapons should have a 5% chance of suffering damage every time you crit (You did just hit for thousands of points of damage).

If the goal is to drive off as many players as possible with heavy handed nerfs, at least have the gumption to go after the nerfs people really don't want to see.

[Desonde]

Yeah, a volley of 4 is starting to get excessive, especially in the build with the highest burst damage anyway. For 10k damage, are you referring to the case where the target is helpless? That is the only common way I see of getting that high. If not, I'd love to know the breakdown.

Without helpless, I figure you are looking at perhaps 150 base arrow damage + 250 slaying + 20 seeker. Maybe 420 an arrow, roughly. Multiply by 3 for a critical, and 4 for adrenaline, and that gets you to 5,040. On a 19 or a 20 (which only occurs once every 3 min 20s, on average), you get what? +1 multiple from earth stance, +1 from overwhelming critical. Then you are at 420 * 5 * 4 = 8,400. Not sure where else you'd get multiplier from on a typical build. Being fury rules out the +crit from primal or LD. If you went barb instead of monk I could see it on a 19 or 20, due to the higher crit multiplier. Or, I guess if you stacked up 20 stacks of vulnerable, that'd get you there (10,080). Plus, going all out, you could have someone in EA render them an additional 25% vulnerable to physical, and get to 12,180. Of course, being a bit silly, if you combined that with rendering them helpless (with the +30% from ninja spy and +30% from fury), you'd get 2.1 times that, around 25k - per arrow. It'd make an amusing screen shot to strike a guy for a 100k volley, but a bit impractical to setup.

But again, rather than nerfing archery in general or fury shot in specific - if slaying arrow is all that is causing the issue, then change slaying arrow. Don't break other abilities / combinations just because of one new ability.

You are looking at the same numbers I am, just missing a few easily accessible boosts. 150 base + 250 slaying + 20 seeker = 420. 420*1.3 for DWS Damage Boost = 546*1.3 from Archer's Focus 15 stacks = 709. x4 crit multiplier for earth stance, 2839, *4 from adrenaline, 11356. Then if you want to add Vulnerable, 13826, with EA 17035, and if helpless w/ nin. spy and fury (Though this won't work on red names), 35773 per arrow.

Likewise with called shot (which I usually follow up with), 150+20=170*1.3=221*1.3=287*6=1723*4=6895 (adding vuln.) *1.2=8274*1.25=10342.

but with proper timing you can easily deal 73004 damage with 2 attacks, 87604 if you build your own vulnerability as well.

[knockcocker]

A shiradi wizard is very close to the power level of a shiradi sorc. I am of the opinion that arcane supremacy puts the wiz a little bit ahead, but that seems to be a minority opinion.

A cold based draconic sorc is far better DPS than a shiradi. It is also directable DPS. Unless there are just two mobs, a shiradi either drops back to their slower single target DPS, or rolls the dice on who dies next. A cold savant has polar ray and frost bolt SLAs that do more damage and do not suffer from this issue. Draconic also gives enough AOE attacks (at higher levels for a pure sorc) that the AOE attacks also favor draconic. The key strategic difference is that a well played shiradi will have more endurance than a pure sorc draconic, and on the other hand, a well played draconic can get 2+ kills for every one a shiradi gets while they have spell points.

I agree with your conclusion, but the hate is strong in this group. There is a desire to nerf what they don't like rather than what is truly broken. I haven't seen a community this disfunctional since I played city of heroes... and I'm wondering if we are headed to the same fate.

I completely agree. I remember a 'discussion' on Shiradi casters about a year ago. Shiradi, unless you get lucky with Tea, is not
better DPS than Draconic - as long as saves are reasonable. What makes Shiradi popular is efficiency and, for the most part,
little DC requirement. My Sorc. would much rather be in DI but it's just not viable on EE.

Essentially, this is what this discussion is really about. EE is so punishing that it requires high ranged DPS and/or hit avoidance
via displacement, dodge and incorporeal. Smart people have created builds to meet this requirements and are thus
deemed overpowered. It's a shame as this is what makes DDO great IMO - it's the video game equivalent of Lego ;-)

Do we really want to start 're-balancing' characters and abilities because of perceived ineffectiveness in EE? It seems
better to me - assuming that the content will remain unchanged - to buff other class based abilities to have more
effectiveness or utility.

Class balance in a game as complicated as DDO has now become is a Unicorn IMO. I really don't want to play
Gauntlet online nor do I look forward to taking twice as long to knock down a sack of meat's HP because someone
with self esteem issues wasn't feeling enough love.

[Uska]

I like the idea of monsters' saves being lowered for the benefit of melee tacticians in order to help balance out the dangers of being in melee, but I don't like the idea of monster saves being lowered so that insta-killing can return to dominance. Nothing would screw melees over more than that scenario. Perhaps tactics need a boost. There's no better damage mitigation than a mob on its butt.

It's kind of funny that a lot of this thread is a discussion of how to get ranged combat more balanced with melee combat, because in the real world, ranged combat is obviously far superior. The rules of logic almost have to be broken to get the two types of combat more in line. It's necessary to do it though, because as many playstyles as possible need to be supported and encouraged in the game. (insta-killing too, but within reason...)



Would it be at all be possible not to copy and paste walls of text just to put one word or one sentence responses underneath them? This request is actually directed to a few people.

That's all I had to say at that point you post your way and leave me the hell alone!