Player Character Balance

[SirValentine]

In pnp Monks and Paladins cant multiclass have to be human and can only carry ten magic items. Rangers cant be Lawful Good in pnp.

None of that is true about the version of p&p that DDO is based on (3.5).

[Xahtep]

Snip/ My specific suggestions:

1) DC spellcasting - bring it back. lower trash mobs dcs or up the possibility of more DCs from other sources. /Snip

The problem with dc casting is that if devs set it for a number attainable by first lifers, toons with multiple past lives, (sorc, wizzy, fvs, whatever) will be in god mode on those same quests

[SirValentine]

The problem with dc casting is that if devs set it for a number attainable by first lifers, toons with multiple past lives, (sorc, wizzy, fvs, whatever) will be in god mode on those same quests

Not really. Generally speaking, there is only 2 points of DC difference between a first-lifer and a triple-completionist...and it takes 2 feat slots to get that +2, Arcane Initiate, and Completionist. (Yes, there's a couple exceptions; Implosion gets +3 from triple Sorc PLs, for example.) Gearing makes a far greater difference in your DC than PLs.

Now, for Spell Penetration in particular, the big gap exists. 9 points passive bonus is big. But first-lifers can just use different spells/tactics if they don't have the requisite Spell Pen for certain mobs. And those with the PLs ground for them for that benefit. So I don't see that gap as a problem.

[Joshguin]

I didn't read through all of the pages, but I'm curious as to how the survey linked on the first post will be utilized. I found it to use very vague terms and it was subjective in its design. I struggle to understand how it could yield any results that would adequately provide information to the devs or player base on creating character balance with the exception of the first few questions.
Asking a player to rate a class using the vague term of most/least powerful, but leaving out questions regarding the players preference regarding play style (caster, melee, etc) and choice in playing pure or multi-class builds will provide skewed information. I'm not expecting a PhD level survey, but I was hoping to see something that could provide some definitive data to analyze.

[poltt48]

Another big thing on balance that don't see anyone talk about on here is cost of enhancements. On my rogue 60% of his abilities cost 1 point. While on my cleric only 25% of his abilities cost one point. So for the same 80 points on enhancements my rogue is getting a lot more then my cleric.

[Khatzhas]

Another big thing on balance that don't see anyone talk about on here is cost of enhancements. On my rogue 60% of his abilities cost 1 point. While on my cleric only 25% of his abilities cost one point. So for the same 80 points on enhancements my rogue is getting a lot more then my cleric.

The costs of enhancements take into account the power I think. So a 2-point enhancement with prerequisites in a class like Rogue is probably more powerful than a 1-point enhancement in Cleric.

[bsquishwizzy]

Another big thing on balance that don't see anyone talk about on here is cost of enhancements. On my rogue 60% of his abilities cost 1 point. While on my cleric only 25% of his abilities cost one point. So for the same 80 points on enhancements my rogue is getting a lot more then my cleric.

The major difference there is that your cleric gets enhancement AND spells as they level. You average rogue only gets enhancements.

[SirValentine]

The major difference there is that your cleric gets enhancement AND spells as they level. You average rogue only gets enhancements.

That's like saying, "The major difference there is that your Rogue gets enhancements AND Sneak Attack and Uncanny Dodge and Evasion and far more skill points and special Rogue bonus feats as they level. Your average Cleric only gets enhancements."

But both are false. Because both classes have their inherent class features, and both have access to the "enhancement" system, too.

[Ancient]

The problem with dc casting is that if devs set it for a number attainable by first lifers, toons with multiple past lives, (sorc, wizzy, fvs, whatever) will be in god mode on those same quests

Seeing this now, and seeing it more often.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Seeing this now, and seeing it more often.

Where are you seeing people who have 2 extra DC pwning content where someone with 2 less DC can't handle it?

...because that's the difference between someone who has completionist vs. someone who has 0 past lives for the instakill spells that allow you to actually dominate content. The Web spell will pick up an additional +3 DC from Cleric lives, but on the big spells that make the big difference, it's just a +2 DC difference.

Now gear, on the other hand... that makes a massive difference. That's a 12 DC difference based on spell schools between no gear and the best gear. Not including bonuses from Tomes and +stat items.

(12 DC difference = 2 DC from augment and 10 DC from spell school item boost).


First life characters can get +DC items just as much as super-completionist past life characters.

[SirValentine]

Where are you seeing people who have 2 extra DC pwning content where someone with 2 less DC can't handle it?

...because that's the difference between someone who has completionist vs. someone who has 0 past lives for the instakill spells that allow you to actually dominate content.

First life characters can get +DC items just as much as super-completionist past life characters.

That.

(12 DC difference = 2 DC from augment and 10 DC from spell school item boost

10? I got my augment for 2, and 6 on my Thunder Forged weapon Tier 2. Where's the 10 come from? I need to upgrade my gear if I can pick up an extra 4 DC.

[letour]

We need more nerfs in ddo and less buff.
I remenber when the enchantement pass was it. Poeple said that mutiliclasse was not viable so they buff( DDO devellopers listen to feedback and apply) that option and today, the community said that there's no reason to stay pure. The moral is do not listen to the community for class balance. They always want more powerfull stuff to be release. Better ED, pretige tree, loot,etc) We have to drop the powerlevel of play to keep DDo from powercreep.
A lot of thing were made non-viable because of powercreep (like epic gear, named loot). Please nerf some of the powerfull. You will not have to balance all the conents for those new powerfull toonlike you did with MOTU. It will saved dev time to do those changes.

Thanks for listening.

[Eth]

We need more nerfs in ddo and less buff.
I remenber when the enchantement pass was it. Poeple said that mutiliclasse was not viable so they buff( DDO devellopers listen to feedback and apply) that option and today, the community said that there's no reason to stay pure. The moral is do not listen to the community for class balance. They always want more powerfull stuff to be release. Better ED, pretige tree, loot,etc) We have to drop the powerlevel of play to keep DDo from powercreep.
A lot of thing were made non-viable because of powercreep (like epic gear, named loot). Please nerf some of the powerfull. You will not have to balance all the conents for those new powerfull toonlike you did with MOTU. It will saved dev time to do those changes.

Thanks for listening.

Nerfs would only be viable if turbine did them properly. But when they nerf something that is considered OP, they don't balance it - they make it completely useless.
That's why most don't trust them when it comes to nerfs.

Just look at some of the things people suggest here to nerf/balance shiradis and monkchers.
Balancing is hard. Breaking is easy.

[Ivan_Milic]

No to nerfs, they make things worthless, just like they did with nightmare, terror, tharaak wraps, vorpal weapons etc.

[Xezrak]

Don't nerf anything just make new quests harder and bring up the weaker classes.

Nerfing can affect builds that are not all that powerful.

In terms of how 'balanced' classes should be I think it’s fine if a particular class gets more kills than any class all the time, in a game with this much build variation it’s impossible not to have a ‘most powerful’ class. The level of balance we should have is such that no class is excluded from EE because it’s too weak. I remember when melees were so powerful raids use to limit to 2 healers and maybe 1 or 2 arcanes for buffs and rest all melee for dps. As long as each class is not being excluded from quest/raids or at most only 1 of is bought into a quest then no need to balance any further than that, because part of the fun is designing a build and then being able to play it, but unfortunately these days if you make a viable build after a month or so it gets nerfed.

Also each time a class is nerfed you will lose part of the player base, if you buff a class you will loose a lot less players than if you nerf a popular class.

[Uska]

In pnp Monks and Paladins cant multiclass have to be human and can only carry ten magic items. Rangers cant be Lawful Good in pnp. The closer the game gets to pnp the better I'll like it. I think everyone should wake up in starter rags and drop rates should be cut to 10% of what they are. I kid. I play first edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons on paper still.

Completely and utterly wrong on Rangers they can be any good alignment in previous editions and Monks and Paladins can multiclass in 3.5 just with severe restrictions I suggest you research better before making claims. Its Druids that cant be Lawful good.

[letour]

Don't nerf anything just make new quests harder and bring up the weaker classes.

Nerfing can affect builds that are not all that powerful.

In terms of how 'balanced' classes should be I think it’s fine if a particular class gets more kills than any class all the time, in a game with this much build variation it’s impossible not to have a ‘most powerful’ class. The level of balance we should have is such that no class is excluded from EE because it’s too weak. I remember when melees were so powerful raids use to limit to 2 healers and maybe 1 or 2 arcanes for buffs and rest all melee for dps. As long as each class is not being excluded from quest/raids or at most only 1 of is bought into a quest then no need to balance any further than that, because part of the fun is designing a build and then being able to play it, but unfortunately these days if you make a viable build after a month or so it gets nerfed.

Also each time a class is nerfed you will lose part of the player base, if you buff a class you will loose a lot less players than if you nerf a popular class.

Well you know that buffing does exact same thing as nerfing and cause a lot more problem . It's all in your head. Well they will have to buff content when everyone will be steamrolling epic elite. Epic elite will become easy because everyone will so powerfull. About losing or not losing player base, it's because do not understand that nerfing is better for the game then buffing. They only care about themself so when they see nerfing in patch note they start being frustrated.

[Seikojin]

I think https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Melee-Defenses would be a good place to start.

The longer I thought about it, the more I felt mobs themselves aren't the problem. Sure they have inflated stats. Who wouldn't throw a 0 or two at the end of a mob that dies in 1 swing?

I think that a first lifer, with the best earnable gear, should, in a party of 4 (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard), provide enough of their role to pull the group through Elite of their level 90% of the time on Heroic and 80% of the time on Epic. And that Past lives boost that gap to 100% Heroic, 90% Epic.

If a person builds themselves to be a party of 4 in one character, they will lack in areas actual party members would not (sp spread, skill levels, dps, ac, spell selection, etc.). Therefore soloing, a first lifer should have, elite at level, a 70% chance on Heroic and a 60% chance on Epic to pull through. Past lives should boost it, but a single player with past lives and best gear, should have to crawl to 100% through a quest. Making the time sink strong enough to push them more toward pugging at least. I would say PL's should offer 10% boost on heroic and epic respectively, boost to helping succeed.

Mind you, that is all at level.

What can help get there? I say remove blanket immunities. Add special mobs with specific roles and AI. Change DA to not slow the player, but alter the movement and fortifications of the enemy AI. The game currently has mob packs. So take advantage of this. Each pack should come with an Orange named Taskmaster. As such, its sole purpose is to buff and support the mobs in its pack. On Casual, no taskmasters. On Normal, 1 taskmaster per 2 party members (hirelings's and pets count), on hard 1 taskmaster per 2 (healing) +1 offensive taskmaster, and on elite, 1 taskmaster per 2 (healing) + 2 offensive taskmasters. So with a party of six, On casual, no taskmasters per pack, on normal, 3 healing taskmasters per pack, on hard, 3 healing and 1 offensive, and on elite, 3 healing and 2 offensive. This is per pack of mobs, so it should add a significant amount of mobs that offer a variety of challenge.

DA. When the quest starts, the taskmasters throw relative, at level (for their cr) buffs on their mobs. Most quests don't take that long, so the buffs should persist for use. They can be dispelled. The taskmaster knows this and is willing to reapply buffs if not harried by combat. DA alert 1 should change unengaged mobs to start spawning ambush traps and move back to the boss. Ambush traps should spawn ranged and melee at DA1. DA2, the ambush traps include more melee and a couple of healers. DA3 should include more melee, healers, and some offensive casters. DA4, same as 3, but with some spellward like traps. Damage (DA4), Slow (DA5), Debuff + PWStun (DA6). The Heroic Dungeons should only be able to reach DA 3. If you get to DA 3/6, by the time to get to the boss mob, it will have a small army to take down as well. Even further discouraging zerging. And if not, it would be a proper zerg battle with a youtube vid achievement. LOL

[Psiandron]

That survey is terrible. Rate everything in a vacuum? You really think that will amount to useful information?

<A phenomenal amount of good points>
Sigh.

Yeah, this ^^

I mean really? How could you possibly ferret out even a dram of useful information from that "survey". This game is not so simple in its basics so as to allow answers on a simple 1-5 dichotomous scale?

The first step in problem solving is correctly defining what the problem is. From what I've seen you have failed on that very first step.

This is not a pvp game. Pvp was just sort of tacked on to provide an added enticement and broaden the game's interest base. You want to balance the characters? Just make them all the same. No classes, no choice in what you get when leveling, just take what the game gives you. Balance achieved. All that's left is to hand out final paychecks, unplug the servers and go home.

You need to scrounge up a DMG (any version except v.4 because I refuse to believe that anything good was contained in that version of pnp, apologies to fans thereof) and read what it says about the job of the DM. Read about how essential it is to customize the adventure(s) to the party concerned and adjusting for the groups make-up both in terms of the characters and the players. This is where there's a real balance issue in DDO. In many ways, given the level of technology and sophistication we currently have, this just isn't even possible. However, that doesn't mean that improvement isn't possible.

Keep in mind that no one who is truly good at anything ever defines themselves and their abilities as compared to another person. You play the game, not the other player.

Keeping all that in mind, please just close this thread, disable the links to that silly questionnaire, have a meeting and redefine your questions to us, the players. Then, open a new thread and ask us.

That's what I think anyway.

[Joshguin]

Yeah, this ^^

I mean really? How could you possibly ferret out even a dram of useful information from that "survey". This game is not so simple in its basics so as to allow answers on a simple 1-5 dichotomous scale?

The first step in problem solving is correctly defining what the problem is. From what I've seen you have failed on that very first step.

This is not a pvp game. Pvp was just sort of tacked on to provide an added enticement and broaden the game's interest base. You want to balance the characters? Just make them all the same. No classes, no choice in what you get when leveling, just take what the game gives you. Balance achieved. All that's left is to hand out final paychecks, unplug the servers and go home.

.....

Keep in mind that no one who is truly good at anything ever defines themselves and their abilities as compared to another person. You play the game, not the other player.

Keeping all that in mind, please just close this thread, disable the links to that silly questionnaire, have a meeting and redefine your questions to us, the players. Then, open a new thread and ask us.

That's what I think anyway.

I fully agree with the above. Balance will be a continual problem due to the reason of my enjoyment of the game. I hate cookie cutter MMO's with very little ability for individual customization (ie. multiclassing or distrobution of character stats/feats). If I want to make an uber nuking self healing Bladeforged Sorcerer, or if I want to create chaos with guildes and play my drow barbarian diplo-tank so be it (this is really fun and ensures some *** comments when used correctly).
There seems to be a small population of my fellow research and survey lovers here. Might I suggest allowing some of us to develop something that could yield actual results?