Player Character Balance

[Ivan_Milic]

To push healing amp to get CSW pots to heal for 150-300. Adding +1 crit multiplier to those kinds of builds isn't worse then what we have now but it might not be better and is worth considering before moving the crit multiplier to fire stance.

How many monks use jidz on ee?

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

How many monks use jidz on ee?

Sure... ya ...can you say Dumathoins?

Lol, jidz... by the time you epic it, you have better already.

[Eth]

How many monks use jidz on ee?

Probably no one, because fire stance isn't good at the moment. Which wass exactly grailhawks point. If you give firestance the nice things, this will become a thing again.
I don't think crit. multiplier should be moved to fire.
Change it back to monk lvl requirement for the stances instead of 1 monk and character lvl x and be done with it.

[Ivan_Milic]

So monks will choose between 25% hamp or 7 wis, 2 ins con and parrying VIII.
I wonder what is better.

[Ungood]

If you can not balance it right then do not do it at all.

Balancing it easy by nerfing just makes people leave. That has always been true and you guys have driven so many players over the years away that I have played with it is just silly.

You guys do not get what is really good and what is not. Example, the recent colors of the queen change. Double Rainbow/Colors IS NOT what makes the builds in shiradi great nor would a foolish change that makes the ability not only worse, but downright griefing to use in parties the way to address it if it was.

That is why you need to buff not nerf. You buff something no one uses and you get someone to use it maybe. It is much less dangerous and much easier to slowly increase the power of and see the results. (For nerfs they are too often binary like the colors change...you use it and you are now griefing your party/playing a bad build/just plain destroys build)

I am not sure how much I agree with Cyr's ideas that followed this, but, this point, is very well said.

[EllisDee37]

So monks will choose between 25% hamp or 7 wis, 2 ins con and parrying VIII.
I wonder what is better.

Lootgen Convalescent (20% or 30%, depending if you wear PDK gloves) of Superior Parrying are better than either. Of course they don't drop anymore, but hopefully they will eventually be added back to the loot tables.

[Ivan_Milic]

Lootgen Convalescent (20% or 30%, depending if you wear PDK gloves) of Superior Parrying are better than either. Of course they don't drop anymore, but hopefully they will eventually be added back to the loot tables.

That is as rare as spell storing ring.

[J-mann]

That is as rare as spell storing ring.

Saw one on the ASAH the other day on Argo, asking 2k shards for it lol.

[Ivan_Milic]

Saw one on the ASAH the other day on Argo, asking 2k shards for it lol.

Ring or bracers?

[J-mann]

Ring or bracers?

20%bracers parrying 8.

[Scraap]

I'll let folks determine for themselves if this is a suggestion for buffing non-paly saves, or pointing out the absurdity of what would be required to 'buff all the things':

A while ago, resistance and stability became non-stacking. All in all, a fairly logical change that reduced the ability/need/desire to slot 2 items. Then of course, resistance was scaled further, as were stat amplifiers and tomes, to the point where now top end stability items would need to weigh in at 10 (resist) + 5 (cha/2) = +15 to all saves to be in the ballpark of a paly-splash with a dead neutral charisma bonus. The same would apply if they switched to using will, or fort saves for mob spell-attacks.

[Pandir]

Lootgen Convalescent (20% or 30%, depending if you wear PDK gloves) of Superior Parrying are better than either. Of course they don't drop anymore, but hopefully they will eventually be added back to the loot tables.

Heh i got one of those on my first life. Ever since the loot revamp everytime i log in first thing i check is if my precious is still there and well, i feel like gollum.

[zwiebelring]

I want to gear up my barbarian with new loot but the devs shafted this class so hard, I cannot give up 20% amp tod ring and thus FB set + 30% amp bracers. 3 fixed slots. Meh...

[Apolloneus]

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5289927]Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players.

I'm a barb. I have no Alts, and no levels of other classes mixed in. I have loved my pure melee dps character since it's pen and paper version, however I would like to see more focus not on character balance so much as PARTY balance when making changes. I'm actually fine with the challenges you create tweaking individual abilities (although I don't really need them to enjoy myself)... except that when your changes de-motivate inclusion of my class because endgame parties don't need or want me.

"BYOH" and "Self sufficient" have become the #1 requirements for endgame raiding. (Not a barb strong suit even though I am better than most)... Casters run ahead now rather than staying behind "meat shields"... and everyone was tired of holding parties 20 minutes for a healer, yet we are still glass cannons with no PRR, no AC, no evasion, and no Hamp.

I'm tired of being viewed as only a "mana drain" on the party... or having to gimp my DPS so severely with silver flame pots, that I barely out hit a non-melee. If everyone had the job security of a vital skill like rogues and arties have with traps and doors... you wouldn't see groups with 40% casters/ranged, 40% monks and 20% pikers. THAT would be balance. I hate going 6 months unable to get into a decent EE raid because its too hard on resources to carry a barb through it. I don't blame them of course... why would a party leader want 12 players to wait for me to pound on baddies in a doorway while spamming heals...when casters can one shot, ranged can hit from safe spots, and monks can run in and EIN the room...

I started playing this game because I liked the equal participation a balanced party gives. Whether around a table or online...The type A folks don't get to dominate the quiet ones in group, because everyone was needed to get through the quest or raid.

BALANCE to me... means an equal opportunity to play my character... without having pike, ride in someone's pocket, or entirely skip endgame content.

[2x4]

I did not go through all of the posts on this thread so sorry if this is repeptitive.IMO the cry for more character balance is a cry to water down all of the characters in this game. I don't want to see characters balanced, I think what instead should be the topic of discussions is character viability in all content as the character(s) move up the experioence ladded at all difficulties of the game. The question should be, is this build viable at level "x" at difficulty "x". also, viability does not mean "best" it means can it survive, operate and / or contribute to a group? also viable absolutely should not mean being able to solo the most difficult content of the game on the hardest difficulty level. If viability is not the true measuring stick then we are all tumbling down the slope of us all being the same character with different weapon sets. We are melee or casters with some specialties. IMO it would be an absolute mistake to take the term balance to mean anything more than viability as I have described it. I think if you apply the viability principle to this discussion we will discover that there are probably minimal changes needed to deal with viability.. so just focus on those that are truly not viable.

[2x4]

I've said this before but I will say it a thousand more times until it is tattooed on the brains on the developers: Don't "Nerf" or downgrade ANY race or class. Instead buff up the pure builds and give some much needed love to the Bards. Some Races and Classes should be more powerful than others but not so far out that they are not even comparable. The way the game is right now it is a REAL challenge to play a pure build anything. Heck even the elite of the elitist don't play a pure build because its so dam hard. Running a pure build character is like running in a permadeath guild. You gotta be very careful in what you do and how you do it and when you do it.

My game experience dows not mathc this. I only run pure classes and have been playing since u7. I have 4 at level 28 and one with all ED's. I am bringing my 5th through epic destinies right now. they are Pally, Ranger, Druid, Arty and Sorceror. I have been able to run all content and enjoy these Toons immensely. No problems getting in groups and the top raids. I am well geared. Multi-classing just doesn't appeal to me. I am glad you find multi classes enjoyable but please do not attempt to ruin my game play because I am enjoying the pure toons.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

[QUOTE=Apolloneus;5310898]

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players.

I'm a barb. I have no Alts, and no levels of other classes mixed in. I have loved my pure melee dps character since it's pen and paper version, however I would like to see more focus not on character balance so much as PARTY balance when making changes. I'm actually fine with the challenges you create tweaking individual abilities (although I don't really need them to enjoy myself)... except that when your changes de-motivate inclusion of my class because endgame parties don't need or want me.

"BYOH" and "Self sufficient" have become the #1 requirements for endgame raiding. (Not a barb strong suit even though I am better than most)... Casters run ahead now rather than staying behind "meat shields"... and everyone was tired of holding parties 20 minutes for a healer, yet we are still glass cannons with no PRR, no AC, no evasion, and no Hamp.

I'm tired of being viewed as only a "mana drain" on the party... or having to gimp my DPS so severely with silver flame pots, that I barely out hit a non-melee. If everyone had the job security of a vital skill like rogues and arties have with traps and doors... you wouldn't see groups with 40% casters/ranged, 40% monks and 20% pikers. THAT would be balance. I hate going 6 months unable to get into a decent EE raid because its too hard on resources to carry a barb through it. I don't blame them of course... why would a party leader want 12 players to wait for me to pound on baddies in a doorway while spamming heals...when casters can one shot, ranged can hit from safe spots, and monks can run in and EIN the room...

I started playing this game because I liked the equal participation a balanced party gives. Whether around a table or online...The type A folks don't get to dominate the quiet ones in group, because everyone was needed to get through the quest or raid.

BALANCE to me... means an equal opportunity to play my character... without having pike, ride in someone's pocket, or entirely skip endgame content.

Why do the Barbarians always talk about people playing roles? (which comes down to the Barbarian guy kills and everyone else stands back and supports him)



That aside, you are right about the other stuff... especially your last line.
Equal opportunity to play your character.

The Barbarian is a good example for balance and the current end game. But not necessarily because of self-healing. (although I think that is an important point.)

The Barbarian is designed (at least for DDO) to be a two handed melee weapon fighter, who charges into the thick of things and lets his HP (and supposedly DR) help him survive.

He is supposed to take damage, but is also supposed to survive the fight!

Two obvious ways to help Barbarians is for armor to have better protection.
(They can wear medium armor.)
and for their DR to be improved.

One thing that would also help is to beef up shields.
Most Barb players do not want to hear this, but Barbs are skilled in shield usage, and I would like to see a game where a Barb can choose to use one at times.

But IMO, Barbs should also be self sufficient.
Aren't they suppose to know some kind of lore to survive in the wilderness?
Wouldn't healing be a part of that?
They do get more skill points than most classes.... those skill should mean something.

Their bonuses to trap saves should mean something too IMO.
I see no problem with a Barb running ahead and setting off an (epic) elite trap.... and surviving!
Tweak this ability (and the trap damage) so a reasonably equipped (and enhanced maybe) Brb can save and survive half damage from traps.



Also, the more I read comments about balance and BYOH, I think that maybe Heal and Repair should add to potion healing.

[Enoach]

Balance needs to also look at the Environment the Devs have built us, especially since DDO is a PvE game.

If it leans to far towards any aspect it will give itself to certain types of builds.

Such as Evasion and Reflex saves. While I agree that Reflex type damage should be among the Deadliest in the game it should not make up more than 33% of the danger. There lies the problem. Will and Fortitude save types should also make up an even proportion of the danger.

Right now Reflex saves make up a disproportionate danger aspect. This is why Evasion based builds are looked at as optimal. Especially since Spell Absorption can make up the needs against Will/Fort save deficiency.

Now other aspects that I feel need to be addressed:

• AC - It should matter and be equal to the Dodge Aspect of the To-Hit formula. Heavy Armor should be the easiest method of obtaining a High AC
• PRR - Should not scale in such a way that a bonus against a small existing amount > the same bonus applied to an already high amount - Devs need to decide what the Maximum damage to be avoided is and set the PRR amounts based on that number. Example: If the Highest Physical Damage to be avoided is 60% set that as the Highest PRR Mark (should be enough PRR enhancement/gear/abilities to exceed this amount but still have a trade off. Anything above this is lost) This give a set amount and goal levels to achieve. IE if to get 60% damage reduction is 180 PRR, values below this should add the appropriate percent reduction

On character creation I think some review should occur on Enhancement Trees Minimum Level requirements. I'm not thinking 1/5/10/15/20, I'm thinking more 1/2/3/4/5 Levels of the class the Tree is designed for. This will still allow flexibility for splashes but now requires more specialization for higher tier abilities.

Adept of Forms, Master of Forms, Grandmaster of forms Character level should be their Class Level requiring 6/12/18 Monk levels to achieve - Additionally it should be a single Feat that gets better as you gain the Monk levels.

[Starla70]

I think after playing in the new content the balance is way off. Even as a pretty strong epic group, you can't go in there to learn it, you are dead way to fast. Even the kobalds have more hit points then the entire party. I had one toon that is a 2nd life, and even that made no difference. Yes he stuff in the quests will help, but you have to live long enough to get them. How about we work on balancing the dungeon scaling way before we try to mess with the players toons. Something in that new scaling is seriously off. One more player and it is wipe out time.

[Therigar]

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced.

Which is not possible in any case so not a valid starting point for the discussion. The real issue is whether it is over-balanced and whether that over-balance is detrimental.

I'm pretty certain that DDO is over-balanced. However, I'm not as certain that the over-balance is detrimental. To the contrary, I think that it is the natural consequence of continued development and player exploitation of the game -- whether in character design or quest completion strategies. What is over-balanced at the present time will become under-balanced as the game continues to develop and as players build for the new content.

As long as the game continues to develop with new quests and challenges different character builds will emerge to meet those challenges. As those different builds emerge some will be more powerful given the present situation. But, that will change when the next major development occurs.

The latest update alters a lot of things by introducing different monster themes. The CITW update changed the role of ranged characters. Similar comparisons can be made as we look back on other updates.

Therefore, I would argue that less is more when seeking to balance characters. It is better to make few changes and to make them only when the intended effect is not occurring rather than to make many changes in hopes of finding balance equilibrium. Equilibrium will never occur -- unless you want to eliminate all but 1 class and 1 build option and gear every character exactly the same way.

IMO that is boring and goes contrary to the spirit of D&D. I think the majority of players do not really think about the character balance issue. They build what they are intrigued with.

FWIW, if you really want to create a better sense of character balance then create quests where no single character (pure or multiclass) can complete but where groups of real, living people running multiple character types with multiple capabilities are needed to reach completion. Party balance has always been more important in D&D than character balance. No single character good at everything but every character good at something vital.