Player Character Balance

[Free2Pay]

What are the destinies with costs in the hundreds to activate skills?

1) Unyielding Sentinel : 225 spell points for mass Energy Resistances
2) Divine Crusader : 300 spell points for Celestial Bombardment 3d6 fire dmg per character level for 3 mins cooldown

Show me what other destinies are as "balanced" as divine spheres?

[EllisDee37]

(Evasion) should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement.

Tier 5s aren't twistable. Adding untwistable evasion to a martial sphere destiny? Your wish is granted: Use Shadowdancer.

[avepepix]

Hey at least Turbine fixed the music songs that work with constructs, undead, etc the way they used to work! Progress is progress.

Now if Bards could give a song of evasion that would be awesome. They certainly do need an enhancement rework.

Yeah, progress is progress i dont deny it =D

But half of the tree of the bard its bha, or useless, or whatever you want to call it =)

[avepepix]

Really?? How did this thread on game Player Character Balance get to squabbling about multiclass splashes and BYOH derails.

This is a Furyshot for 65K damage in under 5 seconds... No Way this is intentional. Wanna talk about Balance? Talk about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZk8p96KvMc

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

[Desonde]

Epic levels should count towards all class abilities and other stuff, not just casters. For example, Holy Retribution is currently a Will save of (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) when it should be (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Epic level).

Hummm good point, but...

I mean on one hand, it makes sense Epic Levels are "generic" levels, should apply to every classes spells/abilities, and not to mention that in doing so, it would make Epic Levels something meaningful in regards to power of the build overall.

At the same time, it would suddenly make a 2/18 split into 12/28 split (a total of 40 levels) or a 6/6/8 split into a 16/16/18 split (a total of 50 levels)

And while that may not be bad at all for the game, it may open the door to all kinds of builds that take advantage of the 'stacking' epic levels, and while I'll admit, I don't see exactly how it would be abused by the number crunches, I just know it would.

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

[Grimlock]

Tier 5s aren't twistable. Adding untwistable evasion to a martial sphere destiny? Your wish is granted: Use Shadowdancer.

This is ti*s worthless. Evasion needs to be granted as a capstone for all melee enhancements or as an innnate destiny ability for all the martial spheres. Shadowdancer is a waste - one of the worst destinies. People on this build are monks or rogues who have evasion and do not need this.

[Ungood]

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

Not quite equal to, as they would not the spells of a 20th level FvS or a 20th Level Sorc, IE: They would be limited to level 5 spells, but cast them at a caster Level of 20th. They would also be limited to level 10 and below abilities, but use them at level 20 potency.

How that would change the game, I am not sure, but it would take a lot of study to really grasp the overall effect of doing that.

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

This is a pretty good idea.

[BOgre]

This is ti*s worthless. Evasion needs to be granted as a capstone for all melee enhancements or as an innnate destiny ability for all the martial spheres. Shadowdancer is a waste - one of the worst destinies. People on this build are monks or rogues who have evasion and do not need this.

That would do nothing. What's the point of taking no damage instead of half damage on a save when you're never going to make your save anyways? What you really want is Improved Evasion to be granted to melees/martial spheres. And no, absolutely not. This whole nonsense about granting everyone everything is awful.

[Teh_Troll]

That would do nothing. What's the point of taking no damage instead of half damage on a save when you're never going to make your save anyways? What you really want is Improved Evasion to be granted to melees/martial spheres. And no, absolutely not. This whole nonsense about granting everyone everything is awful.

Shush!!! I need people to pay for my "How to not be terrible at DDO" course . . . why you telling people for free?

Turbine has set the saves requirements in EEs so insanely high, and the damage from said effects so stupidly high, that you need pally levels. This is insanely stupid and should be changed.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Shush!!! I need people to pay for my "How to not be terrible at DDO" course . . . why you telling people for free?

Turbine has set the saves requirements in EEs so insanely high, and the damage from said effects so stupidly high, that you need pally levels. This is insanely stupid and should be changed.

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

[Teh_Troll]

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

Maybe it makes sense if you're suffering from severe head trauma.

[Qhualor]

More than 2 Paladin levels is such a terrible choice that Turbine makes up for it by making exactly 2 Paladin levels a FANTASTIC choice. That's balance, right?

not as terrible as the forum people say it is, but not to say Paladins couldn't use help beyond the 2 levels.

[Chaios]

Yeah, progress is progress i dont deny it =D
But half of the tree of the bard its bha, or useless, or whatever you want to call it =)

Makes you want a Bard enhancement line that grants evasion and divine grace, don't it?

[oradafu]

It's actually pretty easy to see that Ungood (10 FvS/10 Sorc would be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at lvl 30).

I do however agree that epic levels need to be added into the equation, especially when it comes to DC's on class skills (since CR 38 creatures seem to have a Will Save greater than 68). But to address the issue that Ungood has raised, instead of adding Epic Level's directly to the equation, add the coefficient of base class to epic levels (Epic Coefficient = Base Class Level/20*Epic Level). This way, when at level 30, a 18/2 Split would become a 27/3 equivalent, 6/6/8 becomes a 9/9/12, 10/10 becomes 15/15, and a 3/6/11 becomes 4/9/16 (yes due to rounding, odd numbered splits will lose 1 effective level, but not all rounding is fair).

Under my idea of increasing levels in Epics, a 10 FvS/10 Sorc wouldn't be equal to a 20 FvS/20 Sorc at level 30. That particular build would be limited with the number of spells available for a level 10 Fvs & 10 Sorc but would have the caster level of 20 for their spells. So that build would be limited to one level 5 Divine spell and one level 5 Arcane spell, but the caster level would be 20 at level 30 and not level 10.

[BigErkyKid]

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

+1. Clean and simple. But let's not attract the attention too much to multiclassing in case they nerf it... (that's the sort of reasoning going on around here).

[pHo3nix]

not as terrible as the forum people say it is, but not to say Paladins couldn't use help beyond the 2 levels.

As long as you haven't the paladin icon you should be fine

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?

I know it might be a hard concept to grasp for some people, but rangers in D&D and DDO as well aren't the masters of archery. A fighter or anyone with enough feats can get all the same feats a ranger gets for free. And rangers got 2wf feats for free as well. Ranger =/= best archer.

The fact that some multiclass build can do more damage during manyshot than a pure ranger is not surprising at all.

[avepepix]

Makes you want a Bard enhancement line that grants evasion and divine grace, don't it?

Of course not. But gathering cold its useless. Duelist its a better option to a tree that its supouse to be a fighter. Adding dodge and piercing its mutch better option.

[avepepix]

I know it might be a hard concept to grasp for some people, but rangers in D&D and DDO as well aren't the masters of archery. A fighter or anyone with enough feats can get all the same feats a ranger gets for free. And rangers got 2wf feats for free as well. Ranger =/= best archer.

The fact that some multiclass build can do more damage during manyshot than a pure ranger is not surprising at all.

No, its not surprising at all. We can argue if that its correct or not, but its not surprising. Im still thinking that a fighter can do better base damage with a bow =)

In some place of the way, the different classes lost his balance. I dont think nerfing something its a solution, i believe a some classes need more love, thats all.
My AC intimi tank first life its still competitive, it dont kill, he make them suffer lol but he can survive. Other characters dont.
The balance has to be thinking in survive and finishing a quest, an op combination its ok, but if the game scale his difficult about the best OP classes combination, the other classes are out of theme.

[Seikojin]

If we were to take baby steps to make balance a reality; I would strongly urge the armor feats (or the armor types like they did when they lost mithril/adamantium)to be worked to include more mitigation. Tiered boosts to reduce damage. This way evasion has its place and the people without evasion will want a trapper and will go after casters first still, but allows them to do their role as an agro grabber or to handle the mobs they are supposed to fight.

It isn't like the whole strategy is to b-line your diametrically opposed class and beat them down because they are natively weak against you.

[Sam1313]

A pure ranger can do a manyshot like that? No, so A splash character can do a better manyshot that a pure ranger?
Player balance, its about a lot of thinks, even pure vs multiclass

I have several (26) AA Rangers across the servers. Non of them can hit for damage like that guy is hitting for in that video. My level 28 AA Ranger hits for at the most for 259 hp of dmg and that's with a slaying arrow. All the other arrow hit for somewhere between 78 pts of dmg to 120pts of dmg. And that's with 42 str with the bow str feat Using the Pinion bow. Along with the best gear in the game. Maybe its the Human Class that just sucks? Maybe its the Pure Build Class that just sucks? IDK, but what I do know is theres NO Pure Build going to do that much damage like the character in the video did.

What is sad is the developers will "Look into the Ranged Class" most likely to Nerf us some more? They are totally missing the point everyone is trying to convey to them that: Pure build V/S Monk Splashed builds aren't even close enough to be compared to each other. I agree some classes and races should be more powerful than others but this is just stupidly ridiculously way out of whack to the point that it is FUBAR.

The AA Ranger capstone is a joke. The AA Ranger penalty to manyshots is a JOKE. I mean come on really a 120 second cool down timer WITH a penalty to double strike? Might as well never use manyshots because your going to be so penalized for using it that it makes your AA Ranger useless for the next 120seconds. I know some of you think of Ranger as a TWF but some of us use ONLY the BOW because we are ARCHERS not fighters. If I wanted to use blades to fight with then I would play a fighter or a barbarian or a FVS.

Instead of giving the Ranged class the "SCALPEL" why not buff some of the classes to bring them up to date with the Monk splashed classes? Make the silver Flame Potions so they don't make you have to cower in a dark corner for 30 seconds so the melee non healing class can use them to self heal. fix the Pure Build capstones so you have a tough choice of going Multiclassed over Pure Build. But as stated here by the developer (• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing,) and again here ( MULTICLASSING IS STILL CLEARLY AN INCREASE IN POWER (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3),) So basically they want us to multiclass. Do away with the mayshot penalty to AA Rangers but oh this might make the new raids more doable though and that might be a bad thing? The developers would only have to change and recode a few things v/s having to nerf and entire class and adjust a whole legion of monsters..