Player Character Balance

[Grimlock]

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

[Thayion516]

Really?? How did this thread on game Player Character Balance get to squabbling about multiclass splashes and BYOH derails.

This is a Furyshot for 65K damage in under 5 seconds... No Way this is intentional. Wanna talk about Balance? Talk about this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZk8p96KvMc

[Qhualor]

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

an evasion item would become one of the most sought after and most valuable item in the game. people would play monks for the flavor and would alter the way people build multi class characters. it would be the total opposite of the intention of this thread.

[Starla70]

If you can not balance it right then do not do it at all.

Balancing it easy by nerfing just makes people leave. That has always been true and you guys have driven so many players over the years away that I have played with it is just silly. ((Our guild has lost countless to this alone))

You guys do not get what is really good and what is not. Example, the recent colors of the queen change. Double Rainbow/Colors IS NOT what makes the builds in shiradi great nor would a foolish change that makes the ability not only worse, but downright griefing to use in parties the way to address it if it was.

That is why you need to buff not nerf. You buff something no one uses and you get someone to use it maybe. It is much less dangerous and much easier to slowly increase the power of and see the results. (For nerfs they are too often binary like the colors change...you use it and you are now griefing your party/playing a bad build/just plain destroys build)

Suggestions for BUFFS to help the game overall...

* Paladin class needs more DPS. It is behind the 8-ball. Not just pure pali, but through the level range.
* Real self healing outside of twists should be reasonable for any build which invests. Barb rage if it prevents these needs to be WAY MORE POWERFUL then it is now.
* Pile of hit point toons should have that option OR dps. Now they often have only that option. Look into that wherever it comes up (US/comparative trees for classes/cost of these things in build resources)..I am talking the well over a 1000 HP toons not the well built dps plus decent HP toons.
* Less mobs who kill clerics who do not gain agro otherwise. Seriously, this is a critical issue for people who USED TO play these types of toons and those who wanted them around. ((so true))
* Restore the forum settings to a state where people are not typing black on a grey background...seriously.
* Stop wasting time on marginal abilities like boulder toss and double rainbow and addressing them like they are OP. Buff the STUPID GIMPED ABILIITES that are everywhere in destinies and enhancements.
* MORE DPS for melee outside of the top 2 destinies for melee DPS.
* More DPS for ranged outside of shiradi and Fury.
* More DPS for casters outside of shiradi and draconic.
* More nasty attacks for mobs to use on enemies which gain their agro in EE. Stuff like feeblemind really really hurts in the new content when you are hit with it. That is a good example of a nasty attack for a mob to use. Always attach things which have to overcome for these attacks to land...no more no save no nothing abilities. Something like a magical net that some EE sahagin throw in AoE and grants a reflex save/to hit roll to land. There should be mobs which are better at taking on casters (like the feeblemind guys mentioned before), mobs which are better at taking out ranged (tendon slice really does suck on a ranged toon when it hits you, but more creative less no save garbage is better), and mobs which are better at taking on melee (lots of mobs in game like that now). So really more focus on the first two is needed. What is NOT needed is more mobs who take out people who have no agro. They are not really as big of a threat or help in current DDO play...this is not shroud release time after all.
* Make more abilities work on all types of combat (ranged/melee/unarmed/thrown) and work equally. It is easier to balance without having to put in so many speciality abilities to get players to play really bad options (like ranged used to be and STILL IS if you are not built right and in the right destiny).

Some really good points here. There are some basic things that are needed overall before you start trying to nerf more classes. Some classes have been nerfed so much, it is amazing anyone plays them at all. Cleric was not mentioned here, but it was my preferred class at one time. Now, not so much.

[Seikojin]

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

And augments. Colorless ones.

[Starla70]

I think it would work wonders for you as developers to roll up some well geared characters, make a balanced party of pure, core classes (fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue. Throw in a ranger and druid to fill out the party), and try to complete some epic elite wheloon or stormhorns. I think you would get a lot of insight from that experience, both as a group and the limitations of your individual characters. You'd be able to make a lot of informed decisions regarding balance with that perspective.

If your intention was to make epic elite so hard that only a small percentage of the player base will even try it, then you have succeeded. I don't like to play it, and none of my friends do. Seems odd to cater to such a small portion of your paying customers. I feel like a fairly knowledgeable, competent player, but I get sick of dying over and over really quickly because I happen to like playing dwarves with axes.

Awesome post!!!

I think the dev's need to come on and play with random parties more. See what many of us are dealing with. No special names on their toons, just be one of the gang. When I see the Dev's on it is well announced and they are known to be who they are, people act differently around them, or just want something from them. Also not the best of every weapon or item, as it takes us farming for days or weeks to get items, which in itself can very frustrating. (I ran 3 shrouds this weekend on different toons and got not one shard or any kind in my pulls)

Reading through this from page one, to page 10 now I think, I have been hit with so many different points of view.

- how about say 4 more enhancement points for pure builds? make them more playable
- I like the idea that the best benefits from a class do not come into play by level 2.
- many people do not take the time away from their game play to read through the forums, they came to play and pay to play, not just read.
- why not reach out to those playing epics on the classes you are concerned with? I would think DM's know who is on, tell them ask their thoughts, drop in to parties and talk to the ones playing.
- use emails to the VIPS more ask their opinions

[Cetus]

The original Cetus build was human.

Actually, the original cetus was a pure fighter too.

=D

[Ungood]

remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.

You know.. this is a good idea! They should also code it so that epic levels count as caster levels for all spells and abilities.

[Uska]

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

No they don't no GM I ever knew ever allowed that item and I have known and met a lot of GM's it was a broken item in pnp

[Powerhungry]

I have been begging for rings of evasion for years. Turbine won't do this - even as a Raid item. They would lose their gold mine of people buying Monks from the DDO store. This has clearly been their most profitable offering since Otto's boxes and sadly they will not give it up.

They need an evasion item, or evasion capstone enhancements for melee.

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

[oradafu]

You know.. this is a good idea! They should also code it so that epic levels count as caster levels for all spells and abilities.

Epic levels should count towards all class abilities and other stuff, not just casters. For example, Holy Retribution is currently a Will save of (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) when it should be (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Epic level).

I argued back in MOTU beta for this, but the argument against that was that EDs were suppose to balance it out. I again argued for increases for class levels when Shadowfail beta with the 3 Epic levels were added and the new Enhancements were being hashed out. By the end of the year, players will have 10 Epic levels in which class abilities don't increase at all.

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

Pretty much.

By not addressing Medium and Heavy Armor but adding an Evasion item, the shift in power would probably go from Monkachers to Shiradi Wizards/Sorc in Light Armor with permanent Tensers for full BAB.

[Ungood]

Epic levels should count towards all class abilities and other stuff, not just casters. For example, Holy Retribution is currently a Will save of (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod) when it should be (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma Mod + Epic level).

Hummm good point, but...

I mean on one hand, it makes sense Epic Levels are "generic" levels, should apply to every classes spells/abilities, and not to mention that in doing so, it would make Epic Levels something meaningful in regards to power of the build overall.

At the same time, it would suddenly make a 2/18 split into 12/28 split (a total of 40 levels) or a 6/6/8 split into a 16/16/18 split (a total of 50 levels)

And while that may not be bad at all for the game, it may open the door to all kinds of builds that take advantage of the 'stacking' epic levels, and while I'll admit, I don't see exactly how it would be abused by the number crunches, I just know it would.

[Ungood]

I think it would work wonders for you as developers to roll up some well geared characters, make a balanced party of pure, core classes (fighter, wizard, cleric and rogue. Throw in a ranger and druid to fill out the party), and try to complete some epic elite wheloon or stormhorns. I think you would get a lot of insight from that experience, both as a group and the limitations of your individual characters. You'd be able to make a lot of informed decisions regarding balance with that perspective.

This is very true. People should know their product, or at the very least have a means to know their product. Since MajMal is moving up, and he worked in QA, which means he has spent countless hours playing and troubleshooting the game, things may be looking much better in the future, as the person holding the reins now, plays the game.

[Grimlock]

An evasion item would be fairly useless to most of the melee characters that need it since evasion does not work in medium or heavy armor.

Max DPS builds do not use full plate. They use robes. Why? Because AC is useless with 70% dodge and 10 stacks of blitz going. Evasion would mean a decrease in Monk levels - which is overly saturated in this game.

[Grimlock]

an evasion item would become one of the most sought after and most valuable item in the game. people would play monks for the flavor and would alter the way people build multi class characters. it would be the total opposite of the intention of this thread.

It should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement. The amount of Monks in the game is silly. Turbine should recognize this and either fix multi-classing, or rework enhancements. An in-game level 30 raid item that granted evasion would hardly be game breaking. This is the final year for a level cap and they might as well add it.

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

[redspecter23]

I don't think the time is right for an evasion item currently. When we finally get a metagame shift that sees medium and heavy armor not only playable but preferred to robes and outfits, that will be when Turbine adds an evasion item. When we get to a point where rangers and rogues are actually seriously contemplating putting on heavy armor for the benefit it provides at the cost of their evasion, the metagame shift is complete. Right now any "good" melee already has evasion because of how awesome monk splash is and how horrible heavier armor is in general. Any evasion item added right now would basically just read "class required: wizard/sorcerer/bard". You wouldn't be helping melee close any gaps and you'd just be pushing pure casters further ahead.

[Fhauvial]

It should be a melee capstone ability. I would settle for an Epic tier 5 martial sphere destiny enhancement. The amount of Monks in the game is silly. Turbine should recognize this and either fix multi-classing, or rework enhancements. An in-game level 30 raid item that granted evasion would hardly be game breaking. This is the final year for a level cap and they might as well add it.

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

How would this not be broken? o.o

Giving away evasion on an item or a capstone would be a horrible precedent for this game. Let's just not go there.

[Ungood]

Colorless augment. 195 Turbine Points. Go ahead and make Improved Evasion as a Green for 495 Turbine Points.

This I would buy.

[Vint]

This I would buy.

I agree, and I feel that many people would buy this as well.

This is the whole problem with the argument. Many things in the store give players a distinct advantage over other players. So why is it that people are so butt hurt that players get an advantage because of race? If the same people complaining and wanting nerfs have never received an advantage through the store, then they have a point, but I’d wager that 99% of people have paid for many advantages.

[Ungood]

I agree, and I feel that many people would buy this as well.

This is the whole problem with the argument. Many things in the store give players a distinct advantage over other players. So why is it that people are so butt hurt that players get an advantage because of race? If the same people complaining and wanting nerfs have never received an advantage through the store, then they have a point, but I’d wager that 99% of people have paid for many advantages.

While I agree with you Vint, I think it is rather silly, if not downright petty.

Look at this way, if they don't like that race, (ets say because it is Ugly) they feel forced to play it, because it is the best option. Unlike a Augment, that can be slotted and worn by any class/race combo, their decision to play flavor builds, or any race at all, or pure classes are not imposed upon.

With an advantage being given to one class or one race, then it feels as if there is need to be shoehorned into that decision, hence all the monk hate, and all the monk splits.