Player Character Balance

[Eth]

Right. But he can also be healed effectively by others. BF cannot.

Really? Because current metagame is everybody on a toaster and repair each other.

What would you propose as an alternative?

Max CL 10 and more repair amp equip + feats that increase repair.

[Vanhooger]

Right. But he can also be healed effectively by others. BF cannot. This is one the major
points of what I'm arguing. BF have to have self healing this good because there isn't
any other option currently - no arcane is going to heal you and if you think it's a challenge
getting healing amp on a fleshie, what would it be like on a BF?.

In any case, how many TP does an Elven Ranger (for example) cost?

I didn't decide to sell PTW races, Turbine did. It should be no surprise that people will
be angry if these abilities are changed retroactively. Of course after sales have probably
slowed a little...

What would you propose as an alternative?

Completely agree with that.. they can't change recon SLA, when people is spending real money to get it...it's turbine fault. The only way is give other classes better self healing at lower cost....

[knockcocker]

Really? Because current metagame is everybody on a toaster and repair each other.

OK, I think I understand your motivation now.

Max CL 10 and more repair amp equip + feats that increase repair.

Oh right, so same considerations as fleshy. And still ignoring the downsides to
healing from positive energy and the fact that the race cost TP.

No thanks; BF sorcerer from now on.

[Eth]

OK, I think I understand your motivation now.

I have the BF race and BF toons...

[knockcocker]

I have the BF race and BF toons...

That wasn't what I meant, it was actually a genuine comment. I've seen a youtube vid of your ranger
build (awesome build btw) and I appreciate that you're a good player. I'm just not sure about the example
you gave. It seems to me that the current metagame you speak about is the most efficient - it's for
synergistic builds with excellent self healing (no monkchers or AA's in your current metagame?). Looking
at the effects of nerfing the reconstruct SLA:

1) If you nerf it too hard, the metagame will change to the next most efficient thing. BF will no longer
be a practical choice for a self sufficient melee. Given the intrinsic penalties to being a non-self
sufficient melee, they won't be a viable melee race at all. Just like WF.

2) If you don't nerf it hard enough then nothing changes except you irritate people by reducing their
efficiency.

Personally, I'd rather all self healing options were buffed and that more offensive options were given
to divine classes.

[Eth]

Personally, I'd rather all self healing options were buffed and that more offensive options were given
to divine classes.

Well, good point.

I've been asking for more heal amp. options long enough, but just take a look at all the last new item releases.
Absolutely nothing.
All there is are grandfathered bracers and s****y gloves from U14.

They could also remove max. CL for the cure spells.

[knockcocker]

Well, good point.

I've been asking for more heal amp. options long enough, but just take a look at all the last new item releases.
Absolutely nothing.
All there is are grandfathered bracers and s****y gloves from U14.

Agree. If it was less of a pain to 'slot' (giving them a clue here) healing amp then I think this
discussion would be less visceral. It should be available through crafting and through the current
augment system.

They could also remove max. CL for the cure spells.

Honestly, after bashing up against this brick wall for years on the arcane front, I don't
think they know how.

[Kalimah]

I am not going to get in to the specific details about this destiny, or that OP feat or monk splashing etc. because there are going to be many more people after my post with more to say about how everything OP should be nerfed and all the FotM builds are going to get what they have coming to them. Instead, Varg, I want to point out to you what I feel is the most important issue regarding this topic... all of these things that are overpowered, that people gravitate to are some of THE MOST FUN abilities and play styles in the game.

Excellent post Roland- why do you think they are the FOTM? Because people WANT TO PLAY THAT. Why give us what we want, let us spend our time and resources to make it, then decide its not allowed. Bad bad bad policy.

[Kalimah]

If the reconstruct SLA is nerfed I think you'll see only BF Shiradi casters as they'll no longer be viable for
melee classes without upsetting healers. You'd certainly struggle to make a reliable melee focussed solo/BYOH
build without reverting to the juggernaut archetype I think.

Yeah great, do away with all the bladeforged melee's. Good call.

[Kalimah]

It's not about removing it but balancing it. See my example.
My fleshie character has to make a much bigger investment to get a more expensive and less effective healing spell.

This is not balanced.

Hey my fleshy monk paly human LAUGHS at the reconstruct discussion for BF melee. LAUGHS AT IT.

Fleshies have WAY more tools to heal.

[knockcocker]

Yeah great, do away with all the bladeforged melee's. Good call.

Err, yeah. That was precisely my point. I don't want this to happen...

[avepepix]

For the classes to be more well balanced here can be some points.

-Add +20 to capstone (+20 to dice roll, +20 to dc)
-Add +10 to reach lvl 20 multiclass (+10 to dice roll +10 to dc)
-Add more feats. Not necesary the same that exist in D&D 3.5, they can create more. With good feats, every class can have a good sinergy with every class.
-Modify the bard enhacement tree

[YUGWEN]

I'd like to see little or no nerfing to dps for any class. As it is monsters have tons of hp to plow through and mobs are sufficiently large to overwhelm. I'd like to see more attention to the tiny splash and I am in agreement with the other posters who have mentioned classes are a little too front loaded. Adding a new gear item or boss that requires chaotic damage or classes could help limit the monk splash. A cloak of Anarchy that gives multiple negative levels and other penalties to lawful classes but has valuable play value for instance could tip the balance for powerbuilding players.

My biggest complaints in DDO play value is in trapping and splash skills. It would be cool if more quests had features that required an often ignored skill to get some extra bonus out of like listen or haggle. I'd like to see a penalty based on quest level versus trapper class level to stop the two splash trapping until end game. It is a logical change for play. Someone that has dedicated their development to making or breaking traps is going to be better at it than someone that dabbles a little. A -1 for one or -1 for two levels difference would instantly add value back to trappers. A two splash wiz would face a -18 to -9 at level 20 but would be able to trap for most of the lower levels with proper gear.

Another trapper buff for trappers would be to slightly increase the observation bonus for searching out secrets but not counting DM Vision, True Seeing, and Detect Secret Doors in the equation. This would allow those things to work as before so people can finish quests as they used to, but characters with a high search score would have value too.

Trapper balance wish list item 3 would be allowing set traps to last a few more seconds before going off. It takes time and strategy to set traps and most groups won't wait. It is more logical for a dedicated trapper to be able to set a nasty surprise and lure enemies into it as monsters do it all the time already. It is also very resource intensive to build traps so that is a controller on OP on top of players not willing to wait in the first place.

I am still upset about the change to WOTB. So I'm hoping any nerfing is kept to a minimum. People will be drawn to specific classes based on play value not on DPS alone. I have 30+ characters across a wide range of classes. If my monk or savant or healers get changed it will change the enjoyment I get out of playing them.

Most importantly- Please keep in mind that there is a ton of competition out there trying to pull players from DDO. I have not met a single player in DDO that said "if X class is NOT nerfed I'm leaving DDO!" in all my years here. I have watched multiple players leave, VIPs included, after their favorite class was massively changed not just for nerfing. It is getting more and more difficult to fill groups and raids even the ones that used to fill in seconds after posting are being shortmanned. As you add level cap and quests this increases exponentially so every single lost player really is a big deal not just for Turbine's bottom line but for every player in DDO.

[Grimlock]

For the classes to be more well balanced here can be some points.

-Add +20 to capstone (+20 to dice roll, +20 to dc)
-Add +10 to reach lvl 20 multiclass (+10 to dice roll +10 to dc)
-Add more feats. Not necesary the same that exist in D&D 3.5, they can create more. With good feats, every class can have a good sinergy with every class.
-Modify the bard enhacement tree

Hey at least Turbine fixed the music songs that work with constructs, undead, etc the way they used to work! Progress is progress.

Now if Bards could give a song of evasion that would be awesome. They certainly do need an enhancement rework.

[Seikojin]

Epic Destinies.

These bad boys are the final tweak you can make to your class to fill the time going from level 20-cap. They offer additional boosting and power to allow you to live that epic tale.

Currently there are three (well going to be) destinies in each of four spheres. Each sphere is related tot he type of destiny contained.

One of the biggest benefits is twisting abilities from other destinies into your current one with twists of fate.

Also of note: there is 1 destiny per class, save artificer.

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Arcane: These deal with arcane magics, or should.

Draconic Incarnation: Dps casing. Primary for Sorcerers.
The big push here is sla dps and a variety of defensive buffs in the form of natural armor and saves. I see saves for abilities being half level, perhaps full level will make these viable in ee (if base class dc's have no boost).

Fatesinger: Utility casting. Primary for Bards.
The echoes should boost songs and be like an additional twist of fate, allowing you to select a tier 1-X (where x is less than or equal to that particular echo's tier). Core tiers should add 10 sonic spell power. O Fortuna should increase song regen (or provide it). Allure should also raise your enchant DC's. Spider queen music should allow full fascinate to all creatures and allow suggestion. Turn the tide should affect bosses. Tier 3 of each song should have a chance to proc for free on melee, ranged vorpals (50%) and spell crits (10%). Or add it to the core abilities on top of their bonuses. Making it a reason to main the destiny. Perhaps add a ac/dodge/prr/dr buff in this area as well.

Magister: Flexible casting (dc, utility, dps). Primary for Wizards.
Warding should double the AC boost. Unearthly reactions should also add to tumble 3/6/9. Arcane studies should raise your spell dc's by 1 per arcane study you have, or have spellsurge also proccable on spell crit; once every 60 seconds. It would be nice if wards timers would refresh 1 second per spell you cast within them.

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Divine: These deal with divine magics, or should.

Divine Crusader (lam only): Melee divine. Primary for Cleric.
Hasn't seen live play yet. But does a nice job and is fairly strong.

Exalted Angel: Healing and DC casting. Primary for Favored Soul.
This tree is getting a makeover.

Unyielding Sentinal: Defensive tanking. Primary for Paladin.
This tree is getting a makeover.

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Martial: These deal with melee combat, or should.

Grandmaster of Flowers: Unarmed combat. Primary for Monks.
Lily Petal, Orchid Blossom, and Drifting Lotus damage should be affected by spellpower (based on stances element) or concentration. Everything else is solid.

Legendary Dreadnought: Heavy weapon combat. Primary for Fighters.
Fix broken abilities or make them a proc on hit by (for defensive ones). Make cleaves reset on vorpals of cleave/great cleave. Have critical damage increase threat multiplier by 1 or range by 1 at tier 3. Weapon based attack should cumulate (ie, on a vorpal they would do their 100 point+surge/boost/stun + 10d100 fire, electrical, or sonic damage (should be aoe too); 30 second cool down. This destiny needs some defensive options to boost ac/prr/dr/dodge. Like every core raises dex cap, dodge cap, +2-4 prr, +1-3 ac, and dr 2/-.

Shadowdancer: Light weapon combat. Primary for Rogues.
Most of the tree is fine. Raise dc's of abilities, change stealthy from assassinate to all rogue DC's and DC's of the shadowdancer tree. Lithe should also increase max dodge and dodge by the same as well. Attack DCs should be 10-20+stat+character level.
================================================== ==
Primal: These deal with specialty/mix classes, or should.

Fury of the Wild: Rage. Primary is Barbarians.
Should offer 20 hp per level/tier/rank, making it 120 cap instead of 100. Boulder toss should have a crit chance and multiplier since they took it away from spellpower. Adrenaline overload should proc a primal scream on vorpal (must have primal scream). Acute instinct should add to dodge (1/2/3) as well. DR should add 4/8/12 PRR and if barb, an additional 3/6/9 DR/- stacking. Insult should only drop ac by 5.

Primal Avatar: Pet and utility abilities. Primary is Druid.
Should provide caster levels to artificer and bard. All the melee offensive things should include melee weapons of any kind. This way it blocks ranged, but allows thf as well as twf. Tsunami should be a death effect to oozes, an undead should be immune to the cold. Paired parry should be 5% ac. Spirit boon should be +4 to each stat it provides.

Shidari Champion: Ranged. Primary is Ranger.
Should provide caster levels to artificer and bard. The random procs should be altered based on diplo skill? Maybe have a max cap of 10% chance based on diplo, with a base of 4. So 4% + 1% per 10 points of diplomacy; making a 30 diplomacy the same as current proc rates, and 40 diplo 8% and so on.

[Starla70]

Before I start my hours long trek into this thread, I would suggest that a mass email of the survey be sent at least to the VIP's. I think you would get a better overall reaction, then just here. Many players just do not want to wade through all the arguments to get to the solid information. It can be very frustrating to those who want to be playing the game more then reading. I know for my guild I was asked to be the herald of the forums to being back the information to them, and I pass along what the players would like to add.

[Kalimah]

Err, yeah. That was precisely my point. I don't want this to happen...

Yeah i was agreeing with you there, just didnt do a good job of quoting what I meant to quote

[Starla70]

Pure class vs multi classed is seriously out of wack. I agree a pure class should be more powerful and have the benefit of the more powerful feats/spells. It does seem that splash this, splash that is more sued now then in the past, and the benefits are not as limiting as they once were. I think that is the reason they are so popular. Out of my guilds 40 players, I think there are only 3 that are strictly once class players now. In class D&D, the benefits of multi-classing often did not justify the step. In DDO there seems to be little against it, and far more benefits.
More and more players being sure their toons are self healing, has really hurt the class of cleric. I personally think the hirelings are not about useless, the tend to be too busy fighting even if put on passive to heal anyone, or they are busy standing in the lava and not healing themselves. We have several that really like playing clerics. Each update and patch they get more and more frustrated. We have lost 5 players out of the game entirely because of these changes, and each was a paying player. One came back after a year absence this weekend, looked at the changes and Epics and told us he is done and left. I personally do not like soloing. I like the team play and working as a group. Many of the changes from like update 17 up have hurt that. It is the game balance, like getting to finally play epics, to the common monsters having 3,000+ hit points and your toon maybe 700. The caster being able to cast through doors at you, but you not being able to cast at a party mate over a box, that is only knee high.
I like ranger/rogues. With the changes to ranger and rogue, they are a solid choice. The ranger spells are rather weak, their summoning almost useless, especially in Epic levels, so the rogue adds a stronger defense for them. I was talking to the guild leader of a rouge guild and all of his 7 toons that are rouges have ranger splashes in them.

Honestly, look at the epic normal/hard/elite balance before looking at character balance. As long as the elite numbers stay as insane as they are while you nerf players, it will be all hell breaks lose.
Fix the quests then you have a much better chance of getting class balance in line without too much tears, IMO anyways.

I totally agree with this. There are many Epics that those of us who like to run with parties have serious issues with on elite. (Caught in the web comes to mind). The balance in those is totally off. There are epics toons with under 1000 hp facing groups who each monster has over 10,000 xp and can do easily 600 hp damage each hit. That is a serious case of being off balance.
I love the question “Why are characters in pajamas the best tanks?” Just ponder that a minute. I do not have a monk or a monk splash. My druid came with it, I got rid of is quickly. My cleric was forced into Grand Master of flowers epic which was a total waste of time and xp. I do know players who love monk and everything they play is one or splash. I do not see why they should be the only good tank. Highly illogical!

[QUOTE=FranOhmsford;5290176]

This Survey is beyond a Joke!

Rogues, Clerics, Paladins, Barbarians, Druids and Tempest Rangers are currently underpowered!
-Rogues have been pigeon-holed thanks to the enhancement revamp into specific builds and weapons - They've also had a Nerf to the available Trap Scores from Enhancements {Artis have been hit hard by this too!}. {{Which means there are wasted points again for these classes.}}
- Clerics - You seem to be under the mistaken impression that these are OP and insist on keeping them down at every opportunity! {{Totally agree with this. It seems the DEV’s are trying to totally kill this class in Epics as well.}}
- Paladins - You only need to look at the truly ridiculous requirement of 83 AP to max out Sacred Defender {Not even Possible!} and the squeezing together of HotD & KotC which keeps both at much lower power levels than Kensai for example! {{This is why I have one paladin only and it has taken me 3 years to get her to 23rd level}}
-Tempest - Still basically requires Multiclassing - Why won't you let Rangers go Pure? ((Their spell lists and summons are the weakest in the game. Why is this so badly nerfed?}}
Archmage needs a serious boost to bring it on par with PM or WF and Making us take Zombie Form is NOT going to do it! {{I get that sorcs are supposedly better, but on my 3rd wizard life and it is finally fun, but still pretty weak.}}
The power of the Monk Splash is off the scale! Pure Monk isn't as OP as people have been making out and has blindsided you away from the Monk Splash! Monkcher especially is an issue atm. {{This does need work}}
Bards when played by those who know how to play them are Supreme and really don't need buffing!
However they're also NOT in any need of a Nerf!
Pure Artificers are fantastic up to around Lvl 13-15 then are overtaken by pretty much every other class! {The Juggernaut build cannot be used as a stick to beat Artis with!}. I had 3, with the changes now down to 1. The nerfs made it just not worth playing anymore. Way too front loaded BUT any Nerf at Low Levels would be a bad idea -
Artis really need buffing at higher levels!
Finally to Favored Souls - As everyone here knows I have an antipathy towards this class however I'll try to stay objective:
1. The Enhancement Pass was a MASSIVE Nerf to FavSouls! {Objective enough for y'all?}
2. Warforged FvS has become much less popular since but is to my mind still the best build for said class - Greatsword Melee and Self Healing is Pretty Safe!
FvS are also in no way expected to Heal by anyone anymore as Clerics and Druids are both far better at this and if you have a FvS and a Bard in your Raid you'd probably be better off asking the Bard if he/she was OK with being Main Healer! {{Which is why the question are you a healing favored soul is so needed to be asked in raids.}}
3. The Caster FvS seems to have fallen by the wayside {probably because of a lack of DC and Spell Pen Boosts for Elite content}.
4. Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel are far too focused for a Jack of all trades Class! {{Trust me they just killed this one!}}
Oh I forgot Fighter didn't I - Well this brings me to my final point and the biggest issue in Class Balance in DDO:

Feats

my fighters have long since been changed to anything else!
Clerics, FavSouls, Sorcs, Bards, Barbarians, Paladins - These classes are all in desperate need of more Feats! They seriously are overlooked and under powered now.
Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus Disable Device should NOT be laughed at as Rogue or Arti Feats! {Skill Focus Search on the other hand has become almost mandatory thanks to the recent DC Boosts to that requirement!}.
And No I don't count feats taken in Epic Levels as a Boost - I still only count up to Lvl 20 when talking about Heroic Feats!
It might help if you merged some feats rather than giving out extra slots though - For example:
Skill Focus Open Lock/Skill Focus Disable Device/Nimble Fingers = ONE Feat for +5 to Open Locks and Disable Device!
Spell Penetration and Spell Focus
Empower and Empower Healing
Improved Turning and Extra Turning
And it would definitely help if Paladins got a few Free Feats at high enough levels so that they don't become an Insta-Splash class - For Example:
Tower Shield Proficiency - Lvl 1 Exotic Wpn Prof: Bastard Sword - Lvl 3
Shield Mastery - Lvl 5 Combat Expertise - Lvl 7
Improved Trip - Lvl 10 Improved Shield Mastery - Lvl 13
Improved Sunder - Lvl 16
Great overall post by the way. I did shorten in but also added my thoughts on it. I think you hit most of the points I have at this point! will be continued when I move on through the 78 pages here to read!

[Teh_Troll]

So . . .

1. Stronger Capstones.

2. Nerf Monks.


Got it.

[Ebondevil]

Add Rings of Evasion, Cut out one of the better reasons to splash Monk/Rogue

Also remove Max caster levels from spells encouraging casters at least to stick to their classes.