Player Character Balance

[Vint]

I'm still not happy about the house C challenges nerf. I still advise every player who asks not to buy it. Referenceable customers are a strength, customer trust is a difficult to regain. My main isn't a bladeforged, but I see their point.

Bingo!!!

[Vint]

I see their point too...but the logic is false. Everyone has content that they paid for affected at some time or other. The fact of their having paid for Bladeforged does not make the Bladeforged something untouchable. If we followed that logic, nothing in the game could be changed...ViP players pay for ALL of the content every month.

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

[Qhualor]

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

I agree that Turbine has been famous with bait/switch, but sometimes its subjective. Mournlands is gone and now we have the devs coming to the forums presenting their thoughts to us asking for feedback, we now have a mixed bag of players on a Council giving feedback and Lama is not considered a preview server anymore. That tells me the devs are making a real effort now and willing to give it a chance. Sometimes people don't realize the power of something until it goes Live when a lot more people get creative trying to build powerful characters. To me, if reconstruct is what makes BF OP, than it makes it for a weak race. I only see it as maybe OP with certain builds.

[Qhualor]

How many races have had their core abilities nerfed to uselessness? None

If you nerf the bladeforge recon they become useless. Then while your at it you might as well nerf cocoon and remove heal scrolls from the game.

Then you will have nerfed any class / multiclass combo running at endgame who doesn't have spell heals. I guess this is a way for all the pure rangers and paladins to feel powerful again.

Even better remove any cure spells from the game.....and talk about OP healing a pure pallies lay on hands what 14 of them...and they regenerate....way more overpowered then bladeforge recon.

Getting sick and tired of all the but hurt whiners on this forum. I really hope turbine does not listen to you.

And I really hope Turbine listens to reason and not entitlement issues.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

AC is not useless, but does need a buff to be really useful in EE

It is not useless in EEs, but it isn't great either.

And all you need is to get hit once or twice and you are either dead or forced to run away.

Charge into a pack of monsters (or get agro from several) and I do not think there is an AC obtainable that provides any real protection.



Recently, I tried to finish up Grand Master of Flowers destiny by switching to robes and trying to stay centered.

I took a big drop in AC and some to PRR (I usually wear Light armor on my Rgr).

The drop is AC was very, very! Noticeable...

I know! Without a doubt. That I was getting hit waaaaay more with the lower AC.

Which, conversely means that my usually higher AC actually does something for me.


.... and now that I have switched destinies again, and got my usual AC back, I can go toe to toe with a couple EE monsters...... for a short time..... (but noticeably longer than with the lower AC).



So... no, it is not great protection.
Many people point out that it is better to strive for a higher dodge miss chance instead.

But just because some other defense is better, does not mean AC is useless either.

[Pandir]

If this is so OP, how did it get past the devs who made it, the ML’ers, the lama folk and make it all the way to live before people figured it was OP?

As Ancient and many others here have said this has happened numerous times. They release something knowing full well what its capabilities are:

Challenge xp
Challenge ingredients
Rings from the madness series
Now BF

It is not the point that they need to balance content, it is the point that they put all the shinnies out there for people to buy: then BOOM, GFY.

Balance all you want but bait/switch that we have seen more and more of will not make me want to spend more money.

I have no actual stake in the whole Recont SLA thing i can't get myself to play a toaster so my bladeforged hasn't even been tried yet. So i can't objectively say myself if the whole thing is op.

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs
have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

[Pandir]

How many other races have they heavily nerfed core abilities? None

The only race nerfed was warforge removing abilities they stated were not working as intended.

So turbine should claim bladeforge were not working as intended?

Not that it matters to my point but....all of them ?
I mean enhancement trees happened, if i'm no entirely mistaken the SLA is an enhancement..

[Teh_Troll]

How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

I'd TR out of it. Human has enough going for it that a longer cooldown on BF kills the race for me.

When human I had cocoon (sure it cost a twist), no fail scrolls, and SF pots. Yes, a 6 second Recon beats that. I cannot say an 8 second would and there's times like now in the new raids when being a fleshy who can tank stuff would be a better option than BF.

So yeah, for me it would kill that race. But I think it should be killed anyway because it's that stupid.

[Atremus]

Why can't the Developers just buff core classes abilities and capstones and call it a day.

ED's that suck could use a boost

Healing Amp Augments need to be introduced

Done

[stalksdeath]

Incoming? They're already here.


It'd be nice if, just once, they increased power to abilities to bring them up to the level of so-called "overpowered" abilities instead of nerfing the good ones.

YES!! YES, YES, YES!! For the love of all that is DDO, PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS! Shiradi casters, Ranged Fury, Melee Dreadnaught... while these builds have amazing synergy and have an easier time than MOST other builds, they are also fun to play because they WORK. Right now I am trying to imagine suffering through 3 hours of EE deathwyrm (a fantastic, fun challenge despite an *overpowered* party makeup) without any input from those *overpowered* builds.... it would have been 6 hours is my feeling, which would have made the event much less fun, perhaps even unattainable. And yes, that could be proven wrong if a specific effort was made to do just that. But then, we would have to nerf THOSE builds, wouldnt we?

I would love if people would instead realise the value (player base and dev alike) of making ALL classes that much fun to play... As is, several are severly UNDERpowered and could use a reworking... start with staff-toting rogues please

[Ungood]

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

You do realize of course that those other "bigger" games also lose and alienate members of their player base every time they "re-balance" their game as well.

I remember when Diablo III re-balanced monks, there was a uproar among the community and people left in droves,I recall something with a StarWars MMO, where they gave a skills re-vamp and pretty much killed their game.

Every time a MMO company goes to 'modify' things, they run a very high risk of alienating their player base, no matter how big or small the company or MMO is.

[HatsuharuZ]

To me, lowering the efficacy of the manyshot + adrenaline synergy is a necessary consequence of making it possible for a wider variety of builds to be useful in epic elite content.

It is not acceptable that only a few classes and multiclass combinations are useful in the most difficult content.

[Pandir]

You do realize of course that those other "bigger" games also lose and alienate members of their player base every time they "re-balance" their game as well.

I remember when Diablo III re-balanced monks, there was a uproar among the community and people left in droves,I recall something with a StarWars MMO, where they gave a skills re-vamp and pretty much killed their game.

Every time a MMO company goes to 'modify' things, they run a very high risk of alienating their player base, no matter how big or small the company or MMO is.

Yeah sure, companies make wrong decision stuff like SWG happens, sometimes WOW happens too. As far as i recall people left diablo3 for a lot of reasons, the whole game was ill concieved(i only tried it a bit since it came with a WOW season pass).
Seems alot of people are enjoying the new expac though, although a friend told me his barbarian was destroyed now.

We're past the big changes with the enhancement pass though, a change to one SLA would in the end be minor.

Anyways my peeve is people using the fact that the paid for a class there should not be any nerfs/changes to it, or that said changes would be a bait and switch and that that would make them eligible for a refund.
I find it just silly.

[Alavatar]

Want to make a pure class more enticing? Make capstone abilities grant an additional 10-20 AP.

[Portalcat]

To say it succinctly, "...but I paid money for Bladeforged!?!" is a rationalization, not argument on the merits of BF reconstruct.

[Ancient]

To say it succinctly, "...but I paid money for Bladeforged!?!" is a rationalization, not argument on the merits of BF reconstruct.

It is a warning that the change might not be well received, which may not be an argument on the merits... It is not rationalization.

[elvesunited]

To me, lowering the efficacy of the manyshot + adrenaline synergy is a necessary consequence of making it possible for a wider variety of builds to be useful in epic elite content.

It is not acceptable that only a few classes and multiclass combinations are useful in the most difficult content.

I agree the the damage that an archer can pull off with an adrenaline-slay arrow-manyshot combination is op.
But nerfing other builds won't make epic elite more viable for a greater variety of builds.

DCs are too high for all but the most concentrated DC Caster builds ( and even then they fall flat once the red-names show up )
Monsters are just hitting too hard for tanks ( without considerable cheap self healing ) to stand their ground.
Monster hp is too high for non-shiradi damage casters to make a serious impact before they run out of power.
Bard boosts that were good enough for heroic aren't scaling to epic.

Until these things are fixed the other class combinations are still going to find themselves lacking in the usefulness department.

[avepepix]

So what you're saying is that old people are bad at DDO?


Got it.

Im not old, and im not bad at DDO. I can do it all night long with no help.

[knockcocker]

And I really hope Turbine listens to reason and not entitlement issues.

Surely people are entitled to what they paid actual money for in good faith?

I don't buy the argument at all that they've "only just realized" that BF reconstruct "may" be overpowered.
Without it, what do they do? They will be as dead as WF are as melee unless the nannybot du jour becomes
an arcane caster with Reconstruct slotted. In other words dead or relegated to a superior option for an arcane.

[Ungood]

Yeah sure, companies make wrong decision stuff like SWG happens, sometimes WOW happens too. As far as i recall people left diablo3 for a lot of reasons, the whole game was ill concieved(i only tried it a bit since it came with a WOW season pass).
Seems alot of people are enjoying the new expac though, although a friend told me his barbarian was destroyed now.

We're past the big changes with the enhancement pass though, a change to one SLA would in the end be minor.

Anyways my peeve is people using the fact that the paid for a class there should not be any nerfs/changes to it, or that said changes would be a bait and switch and that that would make them eligible for a refund.
I find it just silly.

Depends.

If that was a major selling point behind the buying of the class to begin with, then it is a bait and switch.

If they change a minor or auxiliary feature, then it is not.

So it really boils down to the change and why they purchased said item.

For example: If they bought it for looks and then they revamp the model to make it look like wal-E, saying, well, that was our intention all along, the people who bought it for how it previously looked would be slighted out of their purchase as the reason for the purchase was defunct. If they knew it was going to look like Wal-E in the end, they never would have bought it.

same idea and concept applies to abilities, the fact it is an MMO does not excuse that.