Player Character Balance

[Ganak]

Yellow bars.

Many, many yellow bars.

[capsela]

Double capstones across the board. That would make pure a real choice instead of a hobson's choice.

[capsela]

It's a no brainer really. How long are noobs or non power gamers going to play when they cannot find a group? What would be the point in guilds or other classes for that matter? How long are vets going to stay interested when they can do everything themselves? Sure playing in God-mode is fun! but it gets boring very fast. People are going to stop spending money or time on their characters if there is no one else to play with. This is an mmo not a single players rpg with an epic story and cutscenes to keep one interested, even those lose their re-playability quickly. MMOs stay entertaining simply because of the community and grouping. Have you ever played an MMO on a private server by yourself? It's not very fun.

This is Dungeons & Dragons and the premise of the whole game is based around grouping and complementing each-others archtypes.
When traps can be ignored what is their purpose? Why not just remove them? further simplifying the game. Why have Rogues at all when there are better dps options? When everyone can self heal what is the point in Divines? They end up being weak Arcanes and their greatest strength is rendered worthless why not just remove them? Tanks are also all but useless in this game with the exception of a few raids. One of the Bard's greatest strengths were their buffs but in solo play the class loses meaning. Slowly all but the most powerful and self sufficient builds become less and less viable until you end up with a very shallow, pointless game.

That was a very eloquent argument. I'd like to see bosses pull out their bow of hamstringing when they start getting kited. Or a telekinetic bow that knocks perchers off their perch. That would be hilarious.

[GrantAnderson]

First thanks for your answers. I do enjoy talking about it without having to keep the knife out. Now, regarding your joy of soloing. While I can understand, I am fairly sure this is a game build, in principle, mostly around grouping. If it was my decision, soloing would be possible but most likely require some hirelingas.

I'm sure it was built around grouping. Most older-generation MMOs were built around, if not enforced grouping, then gating the story and best rewards behind forced grouping. I disagree that that's desirable, though. I would rather a game encourage both paths - and looking at the responses in this thread, there seem to be many other people in the same situation as me, with family commitments that interfere with gaming such that we'd rather solo than make life difficult for other players.

Now the debate I see is whether in balancing they encourage grouping understood as beyond the simple BYO-everything and every man on his own. Easy ones are:

1. Cleric slas for healing. Not current trade off between fun an heals. (similarly, slas and cheaper buffing spells, increased effectivity of bard songs...)
2. Nerf kiting. Either they do less damage or they avoid less. Both at the same time = soloing FoT.
3. Remove evasion from being a low hanging fruit.
4. Rethink the extend to which self heals are sufficient.

1. I have no problems with SLAs for Clerics, nor buffing bards.
2. I do recall the time when ranged was the poor cousin to melee. It's interesting to see how that's changed. I'd dial the damage down, although not as far as it used to be.
3. Amusingly, the levels at which evasion is gained are true to the 3rd ed. D&D roots, although that certainly does encourage the 2-level dip. If I was going to move it, I don't think I'd put it higher than 6th. That's not really a dip any more, but it's still accessible if you really want to multiclass it in.
4. Combined with 1, that just channels soloists into Clericking. Leave self-healing as-is.

I feel like you want the style of play you favour to be rewarded above other styles, even more than it already is. You can already play in a pure-class interdependent group if you want to. Implementing changes that force your favoured style detract from the style of play that I (and others) enjoy. By all means, prune down god-level builds, but just let soloists be.

[GrantAnderson]

MMOs stay entertaining simply because of the community and grouping.

You can have one without the other. I don't group much, but I participate in the community; I help in /advice and chat in /general.

This is Dungeons & Dragons and the premise of the whole game is based around grouping and complementing each-others archtypes.
When traps can be ignored what is their purpose? Why not just remove them? further simplifying the game. Why have Rogues at all when there are better dps options? When everyone can self heal what is the point in Divines? They end up being weak Arcanes and their greatest strength is rendered worthless why not just remove them? Tanks are also all but useless in this game with the exception of a few raids. One of the Bard's greatest strengths were their buffs but in solo play the class loses meaning. Slowly all but the most powerful and self sufficient builds become less and less viable until you end up with a very shallow, pointless game.

There's as much fun in D&D with a party of four Bards, or four Clerics, or four Rogues, as there is with a mixed foursome. Some traps may be able to be ignored, but not all; on Elite I have been one-shotted by traps. Divines are better at healing than most self-healers; tanking is a trade-off between damage and defence. And it's kind of refreshing playing an MMO that doesn't have the holy trinity of healer/tank/dps, to be honest. As for Bards losing meaning in solo play, I certainly enjoy playing mine.

As long as you trade power for self-sufficiency and vice versa, I think it will be fine. In any MMO, players gravitate to the most effective builds, there's not much developers can do about that, except do their best to make sure that there's a variety of fun-to-play builds available, and I think that the DDO devs have succeeded there.

[Book_O_Dragons]

Varg you are completely missing the WHY of the current imbalance. To the players the imbalance is that our enemies are so much more powerful than we are in the hardest difficulties that we need to use the most powerful abilities and synergies to defeat them in an efficient manner. Pre MotU there were combinations that would result in a drastic increase in power over their rivals but the general view among the players was that they weren't needed for top tier content as long as no major build mistakes were made and the biggest power increase came from past lives. The big gap between the top tier players and the aspirants was time spent grinding the best gear and even more than that it was PLAYER skill.

•Time and resources matter: We can save a great deal of time by only changing a few overpowered abilities, rather than changing all other characters, monsters, traps, and quests to match those few most overpowered abilities or features. If we can spend a day or a week pulling back on the strongest rather than months increasing everything else, that leaves us far more time to implement new features.

The questions you ask show that you are looking at the problem in a way that is different from the players but they also show that you are not seeing the problems that players are responding to with their search for synergy and powerful builds. You are seeing players with all the same builds as the problem without looking at the source of the problem. I am among those who think EE should be difficult but the current difficulty tools used by DDO devs are too blunt to maintain fun. When elite difficulties mainly increased drop rates and never the quality of named items I found the extreme power increase bearable but U15 changed the loot dynamic too much for that to work.

*Copied from my post on the topic of monster stats as I feel the same points are under contention here.*

I view EE as a prestige difficulty.

pres·tige [pre-steezh, -steej]
noun
1.
reputation or influence arising from success, achievement, rank, or other favorable attributes.
2.
distinction or reputation attaching to a person or thing and thus possessing a cachet for others or for the public: The new discothèque has great prestige with the jet set.
adjective
3.
having or showing success, rank, wealth, etc.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Prestige

Definition 2 as an adjective is how I am thinking about it.

Back when the level cap was 20 I viewed players who could regularly complete Epic Sands quests as an elite group I looked up to and dreamed of joining. I could regularly complete the easier epics in house P and the Red Fens with my first life characters but in the Sands epics I was a net negative to a group, or at least I felt that way and felt I was getting better.
Now I feel that players who can regularly complete EE quests are the elite group and dream of joining them BUT joining them feels so far beyond where I am that I despair of ever joining their ranks. Part of my despair is that the elite players are much more separate from the casual players in the epic levels now. I used to be able to put up an LFM for one of the epic quests I could do and there was a pretty good chance that an elite player would join but now an elite player won't seriously consider joining a group I feel comfortable making as it is too easy for them.
The lower levels were a nice time for me when the LFM panel was full and build advice was easy to get during quests from the experienced players running TRs but it has gotten hard to find LFMs at all levels of gameplay.

I feel that it is a good thing to have a difficulty that everyone needs to reach to play but the current reach is just too far.
*End Copied Text*

[BigErkyKid]

I figured I would offer a summary of what I think is going on in this thread and what has a bit of consensus.

In the game, as it stands the following is clear (to me):

1. Ranged > melee. (Arcanes, specially monkchers > any melee).

* Best defense: kiting > everything else.

Kiting best damage avoidance strategy in an environment where mobs hit like trucks (no matter your PRR, AC or even displacement/incorp/dodge).

* Best attack: ranged >= everyone else.
Damage by minmaxed ranged characters is equal if not superior to any other.
Proof: Monkchers soloing raids EE.

SOLUTION (no consensus here): Nerf kiting.

* Reduce the damage of kiters.
* Reduce the speed of backpedalling / reduce the speed of jump-casting, jump-shooting / introduce some unavoidable chance to fall down when backpedalling.

2. Multiclasses > pure classes. (exception wizzard, this is a general statement)

* 2 monk levels, two paladin levels, 2-4 fvs levels.

It is not a matter of trade offs, whatever you give up is obviously weaker than what you get in exchange.

Proof: the vast majority of top minmaxed builds are multiclasses.

SOLUTION (no consensus): A combination of raising the investment to get certain abilities (min levels, higher up in enhancement tree, requirements to stay pure) and improve A LOT the capstones

The following has little to no consensus, but has nevertheless been thoroughly discussed.

1. Self sufficient good (A) vs all situations VS specialists (B).

* Some people think that moving more towards (A) decreases the amount of meaningful cooperation in the game (other than just having some replica of you killing mobs in another area for faster completition).

* Others feel that moving towards B doesn't allow for solo play and that it is boring to have to wait for balanced groups (some classes are just more boring to play hence the difficulty of getting them in pugs). Special mention to clerics.

Some solutions (absolutely no consensus) to get back B without penalizing other styles:

* Allow for rogue hirelings (as regular hirelings, not money making ones), work a bit on the AI of hirelings

* Increase the power of buffs (for bards, clerics, fvs) specially those not self casted.

* Lower the SP cost of the spells that target OTHERS and give more slas of that cathegory. Currently it is either you have fun or you heal, which most people reward as boring, not gratifying, not needed! (with self healing being so extended).

* Scale dungeons / character power such that absolutely solo is hard (read hirelings being needed).

[EllisDee37]

* Reduce the damage of kiters.
* Reduce the speed of backpedalling / reduce the speed of jump-casting, jump-shooting / introduce some unavoidable chance to fall down when backpedalling.

Nobody said unavoidable. The suggestion was a balance check.

* Scale dungeons / character power such that absolutely solo is hard (read hirelings being needed).

I've seen this mentioned a couple times, how if something is really difficult you'll need a hireling. Hirelings do not add any power to self-healing builds. I'd go so far as to say hirelings decrease the power of a good build, not increase it.

[BigErkyKid]

Nobody said unavoidable. The suggestion was a balance check.

I've seen this mentioned a couple times, how if something is really difficult you'll need a hireling. Hirelings do not add any power to self-healing builds. I'd go so far as to say hirelings decrease the power of a good build, not increase it.

For the first, I mentioned it in the sense that I should be a real concern, not something one of those uber maxed builds can just ignore.

For the second, this is going from the assumption that self sufficiency is nerfed.

Again, this is my take on it, note that I didn't claim consensus on the solutions.

[Daze]

1. Ranged > melee. (Arcanes, specially monkchers > any melee).

* Best defense: kiting > everything else.

Which is why buffing the defense of melee characters is a good idea.

Kiting best damage avoidance strategy in an environment where mobs hit like trucks (no matter your PRR, AC or even displacement/incorp/dodge).

True for every MMO and DDO has had the physics engine for this since day one. You are penalized for moving while striking but that movement is the best way to avoid dmg. I don't see too many toons stand still when they are getting pounded on ... so now the melee strafing a circle around a mob should fall on his face? Doesn't sound like much of an epic warrior to me.

* Best attack: ranged >= everyone else.
Damage by minmaxed ranged characters is equal if not superior to any other.
Proof: Monkchers soloing raids EE.

Wrong. Melee can be more DPS then any ranged toon .... they just need to survive the experience. Again buffing the defense of melee toons is the best remedy. One example does not a proof make. I've seen a video of a Barbarian soloing EE WGU .... doesn't mean we nerf barbs. It just means that is a skilled player.

SOLUTION (no consensus here): Nerf kiting.

* Reduce the damage of kiters.
* Reduce the speed of backpedalling / reduce the speed of jump-casting, jump-shooting / introduce some unavoidable chance to fall down when backpedalling.

How is this balance? It's just being forced to play the game your way. Penalties to kiting doesn't solve any of the problems that have resulted in the rise of its popularity .... Like not being able to stand toe to toe with trash mobs on a well geared tanky melee.

2. Multiclasses > pure classes. (exception wizzard, this is a general statement)

* 2 monk levels, two paladin levels, 2-4 fvs levels.

It is not a matter of trade offs, whatever you give up is obviously weaker than what you get in exchange.

Proof: the vast majority of top minmaxed builds are multiclasses.

SOLUTION (no consensus): A combination of raising the investment to get certain abilities (min levels, higher up in enhancement tree, requirements to stay pure) and improve A LOT the capstones

Multiclassing has been around since the start of the game. It is what lends creativity to DDO. Penalize that at your own risk. I don't play Neverwinter anymore for a reason and I know for a fact I am not alone. Beef up capstones ... make going pure more of a choice instead of being a detriment to the majority of the people that play. Alienating your player base and friends and guildies by promoting the penalization of multiclassing is just insane.

The following has little to no consensus, but has nevertheless been thoroughly discussed.

1. Self sufficient good (A) vs all situations VS specialists (B).

* Some people think that moving more towards (A) decreases the amount of meaningful cooperation in the game (other than just having some replica of you killing mobs in another area for faster completition).

* Others feel that moving towards B doesn't allow for solo play and that it is boring to have to wait for balanced groups (some classes are just more boring to play hence the difficulty of getting them in pugs). Special mention to clerics.

Some solutions (absolutely no consensus) to get back B without penalizing other styles:

* Allow for rogue hirelings (as regular hirelings, not money making ones), work a bit on the AI of hirelings

* Increase the power of buffs (for bards, clerics, fvs) specially those not self casted.

* Lower the SP cost of the spells that target OTHERS and give more slas of that cathegory. Currently it is either you have fun or you heal, which most people reward as boring, not gratifying, not needed! (with self healing being so extended).

* Scale dungeons / character power such that absolutely solo is hard (read hirelings being needed).

You are dead wrong on multiple levels and seem to ignore counter arguments all together with complaints of personal attacks (knife reference) and off topic discussions (soloing vs grouping) in a character balance thread. The conceit of directing this 50 page thread with your outline of off topic discussions you started it on is railroading.

Bringing usefulness back to races/classes that have been left in the lurch is far more resonating than any of the other drums you are banging on.

[Ancient]

For the first, I mentioned it in the sense that I should be a real concern, not something one of those uber maxed builds can just ignore.

For the second, this is going from the assumption that self sufficiency is nerfed.

Again, this is my take on it, note that I didn't claim consensus on the solutions.

If the game goes in the direction you are pushing, then it is not compatible with my life that is often full of interruptions. I and many like me will be gone. Unavoidable tripping over yourself sounds like another "great" idea to run players off. Level 28, Demi-god status and cannot walk. The only thing epic about that would be epic fail.

You favor the nerf bat, I do not. Time will tell which side made the better case.

[BigErkyKid]

You are dead wrong on multiple levels and seem to ignore counter arguments all together with complaints of personal attacks (knife reference) and off topic discussions (soloing vs grouping) in a character balance thread. The conceit of directing this 50 page thread with your outline of off topic discussions you started it on is railroading.

I have yet to be given a single good reason (feel free to quote them for me if you think I have missed any), other that multiple claims that I wrong, why balance is not related to two of the topics that seem to be forbidden:

1. Skipping large chunks of quests IS a possibility that affects balancing (I have argued it elsewhere, it gets tiring to repeat it).

2. Self sufficiency vs relying on others.

I answer a lot to plenty of posts that reference me, as can be seen from the fact that I quote in almost every single message. Accusing is easy and in this case, unnecessary. I hit the topics that please me in a respectful manner and given that I think they belong to this thread.

For the rest, I gather that some people here is adept to saying that others are WRONG when they say things they don't like. I seldom ever use WRONG, I tend to refer to playstyles and preferences, which is what mostly of what we disagree on is.

PS - For soloers, I already said that I feel that more emphasis on specialization can be compensated with hireling changes. I gather that you don't like that. Fine, I don't like the way it is going now and from the replies in here and other places, other people don't like it either.

PS 2 - No, time will tell what turbine thought was the most comercially viable solution. Has absolutely nothing to do with any other concern.

[Daze]

I have yet to be given a single good reason (feel free to quote them for me if you think I have missed any), other that multiple claims that I wrong, why balance is not related to two of the topics that seem to be forbidden:

I have made my case against many of your proposals in the post you are quoting and yet you don't reply to those aspects of it. Just complaints and more off topic discussions ...


Soloing vs group content may be a concern you have ... make a thread discussing it. This one is about character balance.

I say you are wrong after making my arguments for it. Not just because you are mistaken.

I have yet to be given a single good reason (feel free to quote them for me if you think I have missed any), other that multiple claims that I wrong, why balance is not related to two of the topics that seem to be forbidden:

1. Skipping large chunks of quests IS a possibility that affects balancing (I have argued it elsewhere, it gets tiring to repeat it).

2. Self sufficiency vs relying on others.

I answer a lot to plenty of posts that reference me, as can be seen from the fact that I quote in almost every single message. Accusing is easy and in this case, unnecessary. I hit the topics that please me in a respectful manner and given that I think they belong to this thread.

For the rest, I gather that some people here is adept to saying that others are WRONG when they say things they don't like. I seldom ever use WRONG, I tend to refer to playstyles and preferences, which is what mostly of what we disagree on is.

Skipping large chunks of quests is not a balancing issue. You are given resources according to a formula in a build not according to the quest. Which means that the quest may need balancing more than the players .... considering this is a character balance thread it is off topic. That is without even mentioning that every single character in the game can cast invis of some form and it is far from full proof. Spiders can sense tremors, mobs get bonuses to spot based on your proximity and everything can hear and actively look for you unless you are actively sneaking. Something which everyone can do (some more skilfully than others) and then on top of that there are mobs that see invis. All of which has been said before and not responded to.

Self sufficiency is something many players build into their toons with a lot of effort and there are trade offs associated with it. Next thing you will want to do is nerf UMD ...

So I say again ... both off topic and just plain wrong. That isn't meant to be disrespectful. Just a statement of my disagreement. My not having respect for your views is also off topic.

[BigErkyKid]

I have made my case against many of your proposals in the post you are quoting and yet you don't reply to those aspects of it. Just complaints and more off topic discussions ...


Soloing vs group content may be a concern you have ... make a thread discussing it. This one is about character balance.

.

Character balance is related to specialization VS self sufficiency. You have very well argued posts in this thread precisely on that topic. I found you one.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5298263

Skipping large chunks of quests is not a balancing issue. You are given resources according to a formula in a build not according to the quest. Which means that the quest may need balancing more than the players .... considering this is a character balance thread it is off topic. That is without even mentioning that every single character in the game can cast invis of some form and it is far from full proof. Spiders can sense tremors, mobs get bonuses to spot based on your proximity and everything can hear and actively look for you unless you are actively sneaking. Something which everyone can do (some more skilfully than others) and then on top of that there are mobs that see invis.

Self sufficiency is something many players build into their toons with a lot of effort and there are trade offs associated with it. Next thing you will want to do is nerf UMD ...

How can you give resources to a character disregarding the content those resources are being used on? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Resources and power of character are ALWAYS in relation to quests. Even more, it is ONLY through the relation to quests that characters compare to each other in terms of balance.

It is very hard to have balanced classes / builds whatever if a quest can be mostly skipped. The reason is that you need to give enough resources to those that don't skip for it to be reasonable AND you need to still make it challenging to those who skip. This is simply impossible. Specially because those who skip have NOT bought with a power trade of the stealth abilities. A barbarian can easily chuck an invis pot and he is not less powerful by it.

[Daze]

Character balance is related to specialization VS self sufficiency. You have very well argued posts in this thread precisely on that topic. I found you one.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5298263

My only post on that page is about melee vs ranged and to explain to you the perks and detriments to kiting ... I fail to see where self sufficiency vs specialization is in it considering a toons specialization can be self sufficiency.

Unless you think I am Oberon Shrader in disguise..... in which case. No I am not.

How can you give resources to a character disregarding the content those resources are being used on? That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Resources and power of character are ALWAYS in relation to quests. Even more, it is ONLY through the relation to quests that characters compare to each other in terms of balance.

It is very hard to have balanced classes / builds whatever if a quest can be mostly skipped. The reason is that you need to give enough resources to those that don't skip for it to be reasonable AND you need to still make it challenging to those who skip. This is simply impossible. Specially because those who skip have NOT bought with a power trade of the stealth abilities. A barbarian can easily chuck an invis pot and he is not less powerful by it.

Resources arent given to a character they are planned and grinded for with time and effort.

As for how it is balancing towards resources it is simple .... most people that invis through a quest tend to skip and/or miss out on rest shrines ... seems balanced to me.

Again ... off topic and belongs in a different thread about quest balance.


Toons are balanced not by being the same but by being useful. Various quests have different challenges and different toons have varying degrees of use and reward based on those challenges. Everything is variable. The problem lies in the frequency of uselessness. DPS is always good. Traps vary. Buffs vary (hello beholder). Heals and mana vary (curses and lolth and potions). This lends itself to having a variety of back up in your group/build but some builds are missing those abilities due to race/class and type of DPS ... that needs to be remedied to be more balanced. Which is why this thread is here.

[Ancient]

I have yet to be given a single good reason (feel free to quote them for me if you think I have missed any), other that multiple claims that I wrong, why balance is not related to two of the topics that seem to be forbidden:

You have a vision for the game that doesn't match the existing game, is not aligned with the strengths of the game. Some play DDO for the complex character builds... you want to railroad choices. Some play for the ties to D&D, you want to rearrange class feats to break that link, Some play for the challenge, you want to put artificial barriers in place that cannot be ignored.

1. Skipping large chunks of quests IS a possibility that affects balancing (I have argued it elsewhere, it gets tiring to repeat it).

UMD for invisibility scrolls is easy, invis clickies can be used by everyone as can invis potions. Invisibility therefore has absolutely no place in a thread about player character balance. Yet you keep bring it up.

2. Self sufficiency vs relying on others.

I answer a lot to plenty of posts that reference me, as can be seen from the fact that I quote in almost every single message. Accusing is easy and in this case, unnecessary. I hit the topics that please me in a respectful manner and given that I think they belong to this thread.

You keep beating your personal dead horses even when refuted by argumentes, rejected by a solid majority and told that your solutions are awful. The invisibility example above is one more case of you pushing your ideas where they don't fit.

For the rest, I gather that some people here is adept to saying that others are WRONG when they say things they don't like. I seldom ever use WRONG, I tend to refer to playstyles and preferences, which is what mostly of what we disagree on is.

You may not use "wrong", but you broadly claim there were no good points when they were made. You accuse others of having ill motives (which I view as worse that wrong) such as selfishly protecting their builds. Perhaps the most grating habit is that you keep claiming a false consensus to push bad ideas.

PS - For soloers, I already said that I feel that more emphasis on specialization can be compensated with hireling changes. I gather that you don't like that. Fine, I don't like the way it is going now and from the replies in here and other places, other people don't like it either.

Trying to fix hirelings to replace a player would take more effort than 95% of the other solutions mentioned here... and as soon as that task was actually done... people would complain about the adverse impacts on grouping.

[Ancient]

Specially because those who skip have NOT bought with a power trade of the stealth abilities. A barbarian can easily chuck an invis pot and he is not less powerful by it.

Here is a good opportunity to discuss one of your flawed assumptions.

The issue you have is trying to mix player skill and build abilities. There are players with Chuck Norris like ability. Ghostie could stealth quests even without sneak or invis (or it sure seems like it). Shattan could solo a raid on EE with a fresh off the boat vet toon (or it sure seems like it). Mr. Cow could complete an epic quest with a level 1 toon if he could just zone in (or it sure seems like it).

These are great players, their skill makes the builds seem stronger. Trying to "fix" perceived issues that are caused by their skill hurts the game because you are off target.

1. Invis zerg is a quest issue, not a player build issue. There are quests that can be invis zerged and some that cannot. Any build can use invis.

2. Invis zerg is not always an easy button. I'm not much of an invis zerger and I've had several quests where it is often better (even easier) for me to just stop an nuke a crowd of mobs into oblivion.

3. You can pick high complexity or perfect balance, but not both. I'm willing to accept that means on occasion the balance won't be perfect.

[BigErkyKid]

I am a bit tired, so to sum it up, you disagree on the following:

1. Ranged > melee
2. Multiclasses > pure classes.

Because those are the two only things I claimed we had some consensus on.

PS - I don't think any of us can talk of majorities here.

[Ancient]

I am a bit tired, so to sum it up, you disagree on the following:

1. Ranged > melee
2. Multiclasses > pure classes.

Because those are the two only things I claimed we had some consensus on.

PS - I don't think any of us can talk of majorities here.

You started your post with the stated purpose of summarizing the consensus of the threads... then spent more lines on your own non-consensus solutions.

You slipped no consensus disclaimers right by your word solution, then went on with bullet point after bullet point with no disclaimer.

As far as your two points.

1. A melee build can exceed a ranged build, but it is far far tougher to build, equip and play. Is there a ranged build that is even in the ball park for the EE devils assault time challenge from Zeus's build thread?

2. Pure classes do need a boost, but making a blanket generalization is overstating the case. One example, the pale-master threads get a lot of attention and are almost always pure class builds. Pure sorc builds are also getting some attention again. Confusing popularity with balance is not a good foundation for design changes.

I agree melee and pure classes do need a boost. No, I do not agree the game needs to be redesigned over that difference. Heck no, I don't think your hireling idea is even remotely close to the right solution.

[Daze]

I am a bit tired, so to sum it up, you disagree on the following:

1. Ranged > melee
2. Multiclasses > pure classes.

Because those are the two only things I claimed we had some consensus on.

PS - I don't think any of us can talk of majorities here.

No we cannot talk majorities .... only opinions. I'm not opposed to hearing yours provided it's on topic ... preferably with some substance.

You've only used the word consensus behind the prefix of non ...


That being said. These two points are balance issues that have been discussed at length in this thread. Vargouille can make the consensus and solutions post if you don't mind.