Player Character Balance

[GrantAnderson]

Suppose everyone is roughly self sufficient. Then people don't have very obvious ways of cooperating and they tend to mind their own business. Now imagine I can do things on my own, but it takes longer and it isn't very reliable. However, two of us can do it much faster if our strenghts complement.

This come back to the point by Oberon:



Beyond some quests with levers and other similar mechanics, I fail to see why most experienced people gain by cooperating. In the absence of any obvious way to do it, it is not done as much. The question here being:

Balacing of builds should be done in the direction of everyone being mostly self suficient and dps capable at roughly similar levels or by nerfing some of the current jacks of all trades.


PS - Hirelings are the alternative for soloers in the scenario I picture.

Yes, you can make it so that soloing is more difficult, and you can make it so that soloing is less rewarded (hi, raids). But if people, given a choice between soloing or grouping, would prefer soloing, why not embrace that and make both play styles viable? (As I said, grouping isn't often an option for me, so making life uncomfortable for soloists is more likely to make me leave than make me group.)

[Scraap]

Apparently some people's idea of class balance is standing around waiting for a healer. trapper, etc.

Well, lets examine that in terms of matters of degree:
A) Should traps cripple, or kill on elite at level, even once a given pack is unpopular enough that it's tough to find a group for?
B) If cripple:
1) how many casts of self-healing should it take on average to recover to full for a main healing specced class, such as cleric or favored soul?
2) As above, but for classes such as palies, rangers, and arties where self-healing is built in, but not necessarily the main focus to the point where it's expected?
3) How should that correspond to scroll usage?
C) How many pots should innate self healing represent for those without any of that capacity?

I think most would generally tend to agree that the proportions are a bit out of whack. Particularly the last, but B:1-3 as well.

[SirValentine]

Yeah, it's called roleplaying.

Nah, role-playing is pretending to be someone specific, like "I'm Sandy McFartell, the Halfing who grew up on a turnip farm, and learned to pick locks from my older cousin Vinny. I really hate Goblins because a Goblin ate my Mommy."

Requiring that other people NOT have certain skills has nothing in particular to do with role-playing.

[SirValentine]

Beyond some quests with levers and other similar mechanics, I fail to see why most experienced people gain by cooperating.

Wow. OK, so you fail to see it. Personally, I fail to see how you can fail to see it.

[EllisDee37]

Without roles there is no point in choosing one class over another. We could just choose any class and do anything (or perhaps, everything).

Yes, please.

Q: If no character should be able to do everything, how can I solo all the quests on elite at level?!
A: You should choose normal difficulty. I don't think any character should be able to solo anything on elite at level.

If you mean epic elite, fine, whatever, but heroic elite definitely should be soloable.

Generally speaking, I disagree with every word you wrote.

[Satyriasys]

I would rather wait around for a healer/trapper then have a vapid game where everyone can do anything. There needs to be threats, but if you can just ignore traps and heal yourself it makes for a shallow experience. There is no wonder why this game used to be more challenging, fun and rewarding. The new generation of players are used to consoles and want instant gratification. They don't have patience, ability or desire to formulate tactics and use teamwork or strategy to defeat an encounter. Sadly this is the direction the entire game industry is headed.

[xberto]

Taking 2 levels of monk is just insanely broken -- it gives you evasion, 2 free feats, great saves, along with access to one of the best ranged options in (zen archery/10k stars) and access to incredibly powerful stances (why on earth did you guys make the stance improvements into selectable feats?).
.

This can't be said enough. It it is clearly the most stupidly unbalanced class splash in the game. Why it has not been fixed is beyond me. Cmon! Get on it! Free repecs for all!

[Qhualor]

.If you mean epic elite, fine, whatever, but heroic elite definitely should be soloable.

Generally speaking, I disagree with every word you wrote.

I disagree with this myself. why is heroic elite the exclusion? why should it be soloable, but not epic elite? elite is supposed to be the toughest difficulty. soloing should be challenging and it shouldn't matter if its epic or heroic

[Hilltrot]

Balance

No one says that any one class or or race is worthless. No one class or race is only played for flavor.

No class makes a mockery of a raid on EE.

[Hilltrot]

This can't be said enough. It it is clearly the most stupidly unbalanced class splash in the game. Why it has not been fixed is beyond me. Cmon! Get on it! Free repecs for all!

Dittos, You don't have to get rid of evasion for monk, just push it up to level 9.

[EllisDee37]

I disagree with this myself. why is heroic elite the exclusion? why should it be soloable, but not epic elite? elite is supposed to be the toughest difficulty. soloing should be challenging and it shouldn't matter if its epic or heroic

So, next time you tr and wash up on the beach in korthos, you think there is anything they could do to Storehouse Secret that would prevent you from soloing it on elite?

Followup question: Do you want to have to wait to fill a pug group with at least one person as skilled as yourself before you can manage to complete Heyton's Rest on elite?

The premise of "elite shouldn't be soloable" is preposterous in heroic levels.

[Hilltrot]

Well, lets examine that in terms of matters of degree:
A) Should traps cripple, or kill on elite at level, even once a given pack is unpopular enough that it's tough to find a group for?
B) If cripple:
1) how many casts of self-healing should it take on average to recover to full for a main healing specced class, such as cleric or favored soul?
2) As above, but for classes such as palies, rangers, and arties where self-healing is built in, but not necessarily the main focus to the point where it's expected?
3) How should that correspond to scroll usage?
C) How many pots should innate self healing represent for those without any of that capacity?

I think most would generally tend to agree that the proportions are a bit out of whack. Particularly the last, but B:1-3 as well.

That's actually an interesting idea. An unhealable cripple. -50% attack/spells/movement speed.

Straight damage really doesn't do anything unless it kills you.

[Satyriasys]

So, next time you tr and wash up on the beach in korthos, you think there is anything they could do to Storehouse Secret that would prevent you from soloing it on elite?

Followup question: Do you want to have to wait to fill a pug group with at least one person as skilled as yourself before you can manage to complete Heyton's Rest on elite?

The premise of "elite shouldn't be soloable" is preposterous in heroic levels.

As long as it's not balanced for solo it would be fine. Anyone with a bit of experience would still be able to solo it. I think the removal of dungeon scaling would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Qhualor]

So, next time you tr and wash up on the beach in korthos, you think there is anything they could do to Storehouse Secret that would prevent you from soloing it on elite?

Followup question: Do you want to have to wait to fill a pug group with at least one person as skilled as yourself before you can manage to complete Heyton's Rest on elite?

The premise of "elite shouldn't be soloable" is preposterous in heroic levels.

what I actually said was "challenge" not "prevent".

people don't wait for a group to fill because the difficulties have been nerfed over the past few years plus throw in power creep. we were given more power while quests were dumbed down. now players are used to it and prefer to sacrifice challenging themselves for easy character progression. I actually don't mind waiting to fill a group, but I don't like waiting a half hour either. this is just another thing where Turbine dug themselves into a hole and its too late to go back or people will complain its easier with 6 people than it is with just 1. now im going to respond to the common rebuttal. we didn't have this problem a few years ago with people waiting around to fill a group for very long when quests used to be more challenging.

[BigErkyKid]

As long as it's not balanced for solo it would be fine. Anyone with a bit of experience would still be able to solo it. I think the removal of dungeon scaling would be a huge step in the right direction.

+1 for dungeon scaling going away.

[Daze]

Dittos, You don't have to get rid of evasion for monk, just push it up to level 9.

Monk splash perks have more requirements then just being a monk. Weight, Armor, Weapon restrictions etc etc all have to be met before using the rest of what monk has to offer. Ignore that and all you get is evasion..... may as well go rogue. The trade off is worth it for some but not all.

+1 for dungeon scaling going away.

What exactly does this have to do with making every class/race worthwhile? Making quests both challenging for a party and solo-able is good for the game.

Everything you've written up to this point has been limited in scope and skewed towards your own bias as much as any elite power gamer. It's like rewarding those who have spent the time to acquire the skill to play at a certain level is meaningless. If that is the game you want to play then so be it. I am not of that opinion maybe I am alone in this but I believe that time in the game should be both awarded with more powerful abilities IE past lives and the skills to use them fully. That includes the skills to make a toon do what you want..... I havent been able to make a caster/tank/trapper/healer/melee/ranged toon with 8 years spent in game with corresponding past lives and gear but if you can and want it nerfed so be it.

[SirValentine]

If you mean epic elite, fine, whatever, but heroic elite definitely should be soloable.

According what what Turbine has told us in the past, "Epic" and "Heroic" are just "tiers". "Elite" is a difficulty, and applies equally in either tier. "Epic" stopped having any direct relation to difficulty when MotU came out.

I feel that Epic Elite and Heroic Elite should be equally difficult to solo by appropriate-level characters. (How difficult that should be is a separate issue I'm not addressing here.)

[Satyriasys]

What exactly does this have to do with making every class/race worthwhile? Making quests both challenging for a party and solo-able is good for the game.

Some of the quests particularly in the new content are quite easy to solo but become a lag inducing mess if grouping. Currently it is easer and faster to solo these quests and discourages grouping. This is bad for the game.

[Daze]

Some of the quests particularly in the new content are quite easy to solo but become a lag inducing mess if grouping. Currently it is easer and faster to solo these quests and discourages grouping. This is bad for the game.

I see your point. Changing the scaling or fixing the lag (It's a feature right?) would be better than eliminating the scaling altogether with a nuke from orbit approach. Mainly because then you wouldn't even be able to solo it as the zones would be permanently scaled for full groups....

I too have suffered the new content lag monster and have the videos to prove it attached to my twitch account linked in the sig.... so yes I feel your pain and can relate to what your saying. Doesn't take away from the balancing question.

[WNxDaCraw]

I just want to put my 2 cents in. The constant re-balancing of the game by Nerfing good characters has driven me away from the game a couple times. The last time i canceled my VIP for 9 months because of the AC 'fix'. I like to play the game and see how powerful my builds can get...usually not very. But if i did stumble onto a great idea that worked well it would get smashed because of small minded small people who feel bad when another build is better than theirs. Jealousy is an ugly thing but these forums are full it.

You should play characters that you enjoy. If some one else makes you feel bad because there guy is more powerful then don't play with them. Its a big game so you can find other low powered people like your selves and have a ball.

sorry about the negativity but it drives me crazy when they treat characters who excel like nails to be hammered into place. We should embrace cool new builds not cry because they are better than you.

So leave balance to the players who lead groups. And i will keep paying for my VIP and buying DDO points.