Player Character Balance

[elvesunited]

I've learned that my Artificer character is going to be nerfed. Boulder Toss will no longer benefit from spell power. I assume my high force critical chance is out too on it. It's a nerf but I don't think Boulder Toss was ever really intended to be a high level damage attack for force casters. So I'm not going to take it too hard.

One could argue that adrenaline/manyshot/slay arrow fall into the same category. They really weren't meant to synergize that well. Though Slay arrow was meant to critical and fire multiple times in a manyshot though. My suggestion would be that adrenaline and slay arrow simply can't effect the same arrows. If adrenaline is selected then slay arrow becomes disabled until that ardrenaline is used. No fuss no muss.

But messing with Ten Thousand Stars? The way that it interacts with Manyshot and doubleshot ( by eliminating it ) has been firmly established by the developers. Changing Ten Thousand Stars to thrown only wipes out builds. A better approach would be to give pure rangers a additional and significant boost for the top core arcane archer enhancement available only to level 20. ( A significantly increased doubleshot would fit the bill but be of limited use to the monkcher)

As for melee dps vs ranged dps. I've seen melee monks, wolf druids, fighters and barbarians out dps an archer. The reason ranged dps is so powerful in epic elite is their ability to give damage while avoiding it. Even if their DPS was reduced they'd still dominate it would just take them longer. The problem isn't the dps. The problem is enemies for whom melee engagement is a joke. The only solution would be either to give the melee fighters some significant durability enhancements or simply accept that the developers have created some epic enemies for whom standing toe to toe with is simply not feasible for any mortal character. ( because the power upgrade needed to give a melee character the ability to stand up to these bruisers would make them invincible for everything else )

To encourage more pure character types give the top level core abilities for the prestige classes some better teeth. Pure Battle Engineers could get a rune arm boost. Pure arcane arachers could get a better doubleshot increase. etc.

Aside from that the AC and physical resistance enhancements for melees should all get a significant boost similar to what they are doing with Harden in the Sentinel destiny. Maybe not enough to handle the level 30 bosses. But enough that they can fight the rest without embarrassment. And of course giving the melee types the ability to ability to lower spell damage ( most likely stacking absorption based on armor worn ) would do wonders.

[IronClan]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Balance is vanilla, bland. D&D has never had balance and yet is one of the the most successful games in the history of games. Why? Because all the classes can bring something to the table, most of them are "the best" at one specific thing, but variously bad/awful/hilarious at other things.

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

[nibel]

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

Copyright issues?

[sirgog]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Balance is vanilla, bland. D&D has never had balance and yet is one of the the most successful games in the history of games. Why? Because all the classes can bring something to the table, most of them are "the best" at one specific thing, but variously bad/awful/hilarious at other things.

FORTY YEARS OF PLAYTESTING... They could have made the classes rock paper scissors 25 years ago... Wonder why they didn't?

Balance and variety are two different things.

But balance doesn't decrease variety, it increases it.

Right now if you are running non-trivial content at high level, you really have only four EDs available to you, and those EDs dictate most of the rest of your build.

It's not like Shadowdancers are the worst at one thing and the best at another, they are just bad to mediocre at everything. Ditto Magister, Fatesinger, Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel.

Have you ever played Rock, Paper, Scissors where the balance is removed and Paper is weakened to the point that it loses to Rock? The game is AWFUL, because there is only one correct move (say Rock) for each player unless you want to lose the game. DDO isn't far from that now.


This is not a call for all classes/EDs to do the same things, instead it is a call to make all of them useful to a group.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Balance and variety are two different things.

But balance doesn't decrease variety, it increases it.

Right now if you are running non-trivial content at high level, you really have only four EDs available to you, and those EDs dictate most of the rest of your build.

It's not like Shadowdancers are the worst at one thing and the best at another, they are just bad to mediocre at everything. Ditto Magister, Fatesinger, Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel.

Have you ever played Rock, Paper, Scissors where the balance is removed and Paper is weakened to the point that it loses to Rock? The game is AWFUL, because there is only one correct move (say Rock) for each player unless you want to lose the game. DDO isn't far from that now.


This is not a call for all classes/EDs to do the same things, instead it is a call to make all of them useful to a group.

A rock would go straight through paper, especially if it had a good impulse item.

[Holleyz]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

Rangers? they get all martial weapons and the twf line, and all the bow feats, they can even use shields.

Paladins? um, nope. They get all martial weapons too.

Barbarians? I know they are supposed to use a great axe, like conan did... Oh wait, didn't he use a longs sword??? Yeah, that's because they can use all martial weapons too.

Fighters? Well fighter at least CAN specialize in a weapon, because you need 4 fighter levels to take weapon specialization. But that is not for ONE weapon, but for a variety of similar weapons.


The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

[elvesunited]

Since we all know that the Monkcher (Monk Archer) is Over powered and out of balance in the game and that it would butthurt a lot of them and cause them to take their ball and go home. How about we don't nerf anyone or anything? Instead what if we made some of the weapons Class restricted like a lot of the Dwarven axes are, Karmas are and so on and so forth. Ok example: Monkchers can use a bow and PRETEND to be a RANGER.....BUT Make it to where only the PINON can even be picked up and equipped by a pure build Archer Ranger. I have a 12ranger/6monk/2fighter on Ghallanda and I have a 12monk/6ranger/2rogue on Khyber, on Cannith I have a 7ranger/6monk/2fighter and a pure build archer ranger. So to prevent the halfbreeds from using a class restricted weapon, make the weapon a minimum level 13 to even 18 minimum level that way the "splashed" builds cannot even pick it up. Everyone gets to keep what they have and be happy but at least it would give the PURE builds an edge to compete. I still don't think that its right that a multiclass is more powerful and better than a pure build character for obvious reasons (Pure class SPECIALIZE IN ONE WEAPON most of the time) but at least this would keep them alive in the game. As it is right now Pure builds are becoming extinct.

Why does balancing the pure ranger and the monkcher require taking something away from the monkcher? It seems vindictive.
Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )

So let's do the math. How much of doubleshot increase would it take for the DPS of the pure ranger archer to equal or even slightly beat that of the monkcher? +25% doubleshot, +33% doubleshot? And you'd still have manyshot for those occassions you need to kill something fast.

[Teh_Troll]

So we're nerfing monks right?

[HatsuharuZ]

So we're nerfing monks right?

Gotta nerf the game first. Well, EE at least.

[Teh_Troll]

Gotta nerf the game first. Well, EE at least.

nah, people just need to take my "How to not be terrible at DDO course." My rates are reasonable.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Just make the game, so that not any run of the mill build can solo everything.

Like the original developers envisioned, back when I beta tested the game 8 years ago.

Back then, you couldn't solo... it WAS about the social/grouping.

Traps hurt in quests that had them... you NEEDED a trapper... (and not a wiz with rogue skills)
Bosses hit hard and you NEEDED melee types in the group.
Casters were NEEDED for crowd control, and buffs.
Healers were NEEDED to keep everyone alive


Now, I can just roll up a 12monk/6ranger/2fvs.... weeee i dont need to group.

Lame... just pathetic.

Not once did i ever solo in pen and paper... not once... The developers they have now.. probably have never played pen and paper. The original vision is so far gone...probably unable to get back to the good ol days.

DDO is not about dungeon crawling anymore... It went from dungeon crawling, to power creep.

I remember, the best times i had playing... was questing.. getting into a group and trying to see if we could accomplish a particular quest... dungeon crawling with others to try to accomplish the tasks given to us inside quests....was friggin sweet..

Now its just invis to end.. kill boss, grab chest.. ddoor out.

8 years is a good run though.

Fivefinga on Sarlona
Beta tester and founder.

[Holleyz]

Why does balancing the pure ranger and the monkcher require taking something away from the monkcher? It seems vindictive.
Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )

So let's do the math. How much of doubleshot increase would it take for the DPS of the pure ranger archer to equal or even slightly beat that of the monkcher? +25% doubleshot, +33% doubleshot? And you'd still have manyshot for those occassions you need to kill something fast.

Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )
And why do you think that is??????????????????????? could it be that the Monkchers IS overpowered? Yes it is. I have 7 of them and I play them all and I'm telling you from first hand experience that they are OVERPOWERED. OUT OF BALANCE. I mean heck there has even been threads on the forum about people joking about NOT having to run the quest because the Monkcher has completed it by the time everyone else has finished buffing at the entrance of the quest.. What does that tell you? NOT BALANCED. Pure builds don't stand a chance against them. Most if not all the other builds don't. YOU SAID SO YOURSELF with this statement "Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )"

[Holleyz]

Just make the game, so that not any run of the mill build can solo everything.

Like the original developers envisioned, back when I beta tested the game 8 years ago.

Back then, you couldn't solo... it WAS about the social/grouping.

Traps hurt in quests that had them... you NEEDED a trapper... (and not a wiz with rogue skills)
Bosses hit hard and you NEEDED melee types in the group.
Casters were NEEDED for crowd control, and buffs.
Healers were NEEDED to keep everyone alive


Now, I can just roll up a 12monk/6ranger/2fvs.... weeee i dont need to group.

Lame... just pathetic.

Not once did i ever solo in pen and paper... not once... The developers they have now.. probably have never played pen and paper. The original vision is so far gone...probably unable to get back to the good ol days.

DDO is not about dungeon crawling anymore... It went from dungeon crawling, to power creep.

I remember, the best times i had playing... was questing.. getting into a group and trying to see if we could accomplish a particular quest... dungeon crawling with others to try to accomplish the tasks given to us inside quests....was friggin sweet..

Now its just invis to end.. kill boss, grab chest.. ddoor out.

8 years is a good run though.

Fivefinga on Sarlona
Beta tester and founder.

THIS is so so so VERY TRUE.

[Fhauvial]

Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )
And why do you think that is??????????????????????? could it be that the Monkchers IS overpowered? Yes it is. I have 7 of them and I play them all and I'm telling you from first hand experience that they are OVERPOWERED. OUT OF BALANCE. I mean heck there has even been threads on the forum about people joking about NOT having to run the quest because the Monkcher has completed it by the time everyone else has finished buffing at the entrance of the quest.. What does that tell you? NOT BALANCED. Pure builds don't stand a chance against them. Most if not all the other builds don't. YOU SAID SO YOURSELF with this statement "Lots of monkcher's use Pinion. ( and lot's of pure archer rangers haven't been lucky enough to get one )"

There are plenty of other builds that use Pinion. Making them class-restricted as was suggested earlier would hurt those builds more than it would Monkchers.

My first character was, and still is, a Pure Ranger btw.

[Holleyz]

What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

Rangers? they get all martial weapons and the twf line, and all the bow feats, they can even use shields.

Paladins? um, nope. They get all martial weapons too.

Barbarians? I know they are supposed to use a great axe, like conan did... Oh wait, didn't he use a longs sword??? Yeah, that's because they can use all martial weapons too.

Fighters? Well fighter at least CAN specialize in a weapon, because you need 4 fighter levels to take weapon specialization. But that is not for ONE weapon, but for a variety of similar weapons.


The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

[Fhauvial]

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Technically rangers specialized in one fighting style, and were granted feats depending on which they chose to specialize in.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor and shields (except tower shields).

And just to touch on this..

What pure build specializes in ONE weapon?

The big butthurt that people have about rangers, is that they think ranger means archer. It doesn't.

Ranger could mean archer in 3.5e, and that's how many players played them. If you specialized in Archery, you weren't given the TWF feats, and were a pure archer.

In DDO, they get both. Personally, I take this more as compensation for not being granted Animal Companions (a core feature of the class), rather than Rangers not intended to be one of the most devastating archers.

They were not necessarily the only option, however:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...hp?topic=642.0

(Edit: That thread is incomplete, but it shows just how many ways there were to build an Archer in 3.5e)

[blerkington]

about half way down the page SIR... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm

Hi,

You should have noticed by now that there are some major differences between the 3.5 ruleset and DDO.

In DDO, you are not required to choose between melee and ranged specialisation as a ranger they same way you are in some versions of the PnP rules. That is why I and many others here have been telling you that the ranger is not a ranged specialist in this game.

Referring to a set of rules for a different game does not prove your point at all. DDO is based upon 3.5E, but at this point of its evolution it is also a very different thing from the original ruleset in many ways.

If you put some effort into learning the game you are playing now, rather than arguing how it is or should be more like another, different game, it will help you to become a better player, I promise.

I don't think it can be explained any more clearly than that. You can continue sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to believe it, but that won't make you any less wrong.

Thanks, and good luck.

[jskinner937]

Very simple IMO to bring and preserve order....

Buff capstones. The EP almost killed pure class save for a few builds. Some like multiclass, others prefer pure class. There should honestly be a significant advantage in favor of dedicating every level and a large amount of enhancement points spent in a specific class/prestige in their field, such as shore up a weakness or give them epic power in a specialty. A few examples I would like to see...

Archmage 60 points spent 20 lvls wizard gain 10% reduction in spell point costs on all spells
Palemaster 10% negative energy vulnerability or maybe +4 dc necro or lesser combo of both
XXXSavant 10% reduction spell point cost in their element + 10 SP
Occult Slayer On failed reflex save gain improved evasion for 1min with 2min cooldown
Ravager +40 SR when raged
Frezied Barbarian +10 Str when raged
DWS +4d6 stacking sneak attack damage
AA (full ranger only) manyshot cooldown reduced 25%
Tempest +4 damage to all rolls
Assasin +4 dc to assassinate
Mechanic +4 damage to all ranged rolls
Shintao/Henshin/Ninja Spy +2 to all tactical DCs and monk special abilities
Radiant Servant +4 turns and 10 positive SP

Not gonna do all, but you get the point. Capstones have always been lacking, and the point of the EP was to bring more diversity to builds. Instead it just made more monk and pally splash cookie cutter builds, while making it less viable to stay pure. DDO is largely a PnP fan base and many of us grew up playing pure class, make it so. Oh by the way Paladin an Bard pure class really need the most love of anyone.

[SirValentine]

Balance is not fun, Rock paper scissors is perfectly balanced.

Gaming is the act of making choices that are meaningful and entertaining, rock paper scissors doesn't have much entertainment value... because the choices are shallow and thus not meaningful.

Interesting example. I disagree with your conclusion.

Rock-Paper-Scissors is MUCH more meaningful and entertaining than just Rock-Scissors-Scissors, the unbalanced version, where everyone chooses Rock if they want to win, Scissors if they enjoy the flavor build AND don't mind getting smashed all the time.

But more seriously, Rock-Paper-Scissors is the simplest example of a non-transitive set of choices, where there is no single "best" choice, because which is better is situational. I think that's what we should have in DDO, where different builds actually are meaningfully better in different meaningful in-game situations, instead of where only a few are good in almost all situations, a few more might be better at some specialty, but in such a narrow way it doesn't much matter, and, many more are simply clearly inferior.

Again, nobody wants all the choices to be the same; contrariwise, we actually want the choices to be meaningful.