Player Character Balance

[GoldyGopher]

My main character is a Dex build hybrid Pally, Rogue and Monk, the basis of the build was created when the DDO Level cap was 14. I have played her a long time.
I have acknowledged for two years that she is a relic from a by-gone era. The moment that Lolth was created as a rock stable mob who floated off an asteroid the build was just a half step this side of useless. However at that point I had played her for three years, hard to step away when we kept hearing that changes were coming that "should bring balance to the game."
With the release of Shadowfell Conspiracy I determined it was time to respec my build, as soon as I acquire the correct gear it was time for another TR. Unfortunately she is the unlucky character who did not get a raiders box (I have multiple level 4 bank toons that received two of them, go figure, yes I bugged it) so I have been grinding CITW looking for something, 4 Epic Reincarnations later and 47 Runs, still no .... Well you get the idea.

So why is this character broken, I mean gimped?
One Word - Kiting.
Can't DPS what you can't catch.

Kiting has changed the game and thrown the character balance out of whack. Each of my ER have tried different stat/skill/feats setups trying to put this character into a position so they are not dead-weight in the party. Currently she is setup for the release of U21 Patch 1 and the Divine Crusader. However after looking at it Divine Crusader on Lamannia I had decided it was time to say "frell it" and just TR my character, without a specific weapon from a raid that hardly anyone runs anymore. Then suddenly this Topic pops up, so I am going to hold off a week, two or three more CITW aren't going to kill me, it might kill some of my guldies toons, but that's another story.

So I spent the weekend thinking about Character Balance. Why doesn't it work. Why are there a small handful of useful builds, a dozen or so variations on those builds and everything else dead weight?

Character classes are front loaded
When DDO:S was initially conceived the game had a level cap 10, today the level cap is 28 and going to be 30 by the end of the year.
So when the game was originally released a multi-class character had to take 30 to 40% of its investment in class levels to get a benefit from a second class. Today you need to take 20% investment in two additional classes to get the same benefit.
In some versions of PnP D&D if you multiclass you "could" (not that it always happened) lose some of your benefits from specific classes, which doesn't happen here in DDO.

The Advent of Enhancements
Originally in DDO:S we could take FOUR enhancements and we spent hours agonizing over which minor little bump was more special and appropriate for our builds.
First came Module 3.3 - Academy Training and then Update 19 - Shadowfell Conspiracy - both of which overhauled the Enhancement system.

Epic Destiny
It's already been noted several times that the Epic Destinies are unequal in the eyes of the player base.

Generic Epic Levels
I haven't seen this mentioned in this thread, so I will bring it up. I totally understand what Turbine was trying to accomplish with ED and Epic Levels, but the generic levels mean that all characters "advance as one" on this front. It makes no difference whether you are a Rogue, Wizard or Barbarian you all get the same options as an Epic Character.

Epic Elite Mob Damage
Dead Horse

So how would I address
Honestly this topic is far too complex to discuss in detail at this level.

Epic Mob to hit
When the AC pass occurred we heard

Overall Summary:
With the new combat formulas, we’re hoping to have Armor Class matter at all levels, for every character. Each point of Armor Class that you gain will help you mitigate damage, whether it’s your 17^th point or your 117^th. Armors provide increased Armor Class bonuses as well as Physical Resistance Rating. It’s not really possible to reach the 95% plateau anymore, but a high Armor Class character’s survivability will still be high, and the formula is much more forgiving to middling-AC characters.

Which is totally not true.
Numerous rumors have persisted that the problem is EE CR levels which have a multiplier of something like 1.9 to determine a mobs To-hit-Bonus. Let see a CR level 80 mob with a to-hit-bonus of 150 plugged into our formula (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) would require a character to wear armor with a value of 325 to be only hit every 4th swing.
Mob's Attack Bonuses need to be adjusted. Time consuming and tedious I am sure, but we have been told that it is now possible to do this manually on a case by case basis.
If you are going to modify these numbers lets have some variety. I have no issue with a Archer having a better chance of hitting my character with an arrow vs the giant swinging his stone maul, as long as the damage I take is varied as well. Eight of small 80-100 point a shot arrows = one cronk by that big maul.
Is this a low hanging fruit that can be done by an intern?
Time to add specific Epic Levels
I understand that you probably don't want to add thirteen classes right now, but a Arcane, Divine, Melee, Specialist class would probably take 33% of the time and solve 80% of the problem.
I would put a restriction on it with something like: 5 Character class levels opens each of the four epic classes, with each 2 levels adds another available epic level.
Class Level Epic Class
5 1
7 2
9 3
11 4
13 5
15 6
17 7
19 8 +

Each Class should be able to choose from up to two options in this model
Artificer | Wizard - Arcane | Specialist
Barbarian | Ranger | Rogue - Melee | Specialist
Bard - Arcane | Melee
Cleric | Favored Soul - Arcane - Divine
Druid | Monk | Paladin - Divine | Melee
Fighter - Melee
Sorcerer - Arcane

Don't have enough character levels, you get the generic Epic Level.
The Arcane could provide 100 Spell Points, 4 HP, and 1 Skill points in Spellcraft and 4 skill points to spend just like normal skill points
The Divine could provide 80 Spell Points, 8 HP and 1 Skill Point in Heal and 3 skill points to spend.
The Melee could provide 12 HP, full BAB an extra feat at 4, 7, and 10 (not back loaded) plus 2 skill points
The Specialist could provide 6 HP, 12 Skill points and bonuses to dodge.
BAB would be varied.

Also each specific level could generate Enhancement points that can only be spent in Class Trees that have a tier 5 enhancement.

Epic Destinies Pass
A complete pass of all the Epic Destines needs to occur.
More options, just to point out a change to US that would make it more attractive to more players, Shield Prowess could have a second option, Dodge Prowess, or a third option, DR Prowess, that gives players who don't want to use a shield options to spend points and not waste them.
Too many [cough almost all cough] of the current Epic Destinies pigeon hole a character into specific builds. many builds by default right now are little more that dead weight in a party.

Character Class Restrictions
Many classes have minor boosts that become big rewards. To me the fix is add the requirement that a majority of your heroic classes need to be in that class to get those rewards. Divine Health, Monk Stances, so on and so forth.

Multipliers
Going back to my gimp character, I get 8d6+18 sneak attack damage, doing an additional 46 points per swing. Sounds great until you remember a low level EE mob has 6,000 HP and a boss 1,000,000. Yet that Imbue arrow, 10K Stars, *** are all mutliplers. This probably needs to be in an Epic Destiny but a passive that provides 2,3,or 4 times my sneak attack damage (46*4=184) per swing would double my DPS output.
Several things have modifiers that need to be double (shield prowess providing +50% should be tripled.
This isn't just Sneak attack, but divine healing, AC bonuses, the list is long but you get the idea.

damage pots
In many other games I can add specific short turn damage boosts but slopping oil or holy water or ... on my weapons. Right now we can get a buff from one class, but the ability to put holy water on my war axe or fire oil or ... short turn buffs that players them selves manage.

Nerfs
In general I am a player, I hat nerfs, and for players who have invested hundreds of hours to gear up a toon that you want to nerf in seconds, there is going to be rage, and yes some people will leave the game. But as a reasonable person the nerf bat needs to come out for things that rhyme with ten-thousand cars, many fought, caster's fritz, chirashi cambrian, the bunk crass, or american overtoad. A number of small nerfs and balances is far greater than big nerfs.

[Barhai]

As many have said, the quests makes a lot of character choices worthless. If I may point out a few cases that have not been addressed as much as the rest.

1) Casting.
a) nuking: or "why do we end up playing shiradi so much?". Mobs HP are too high for a regular nuking spell to be a efficient use of SP. For high level content that is true even in EH. A polar ray cast by a water savant with all gear possible only does around 1300 average damage for 20 sp. So in the neighborhood of 160 sp per mob in EE gianthold, assuming you survive because even using the 4 more sp efficient nuke spells that is a long time killing a mob. Neither magister nor draconic really increase the damage dealt by nuking spells (we're talking less than 10% increase). So if we don't use shiradi our damage at L28 is only 10-20% higher than it was at L20.
If you add the fact that mobs save on ref save too often (but less often than fort/will save at least) and shiradied MM familly really start looking as the only viable nuking spells.
Energy burst is nice in EH but in EE or even L26+EH it does less damage than trash mob HP, with the timer on it it cease to be a solution for staying in anything but shiradi.
So spamming MM, FM, CM and a few other spells, in shiradi. Well that means we don't need 20 Lv of wizard/sorc to cast that! That 2 lv of monk or rogue for evasion looks really tempting doesn't it?
If there were ways to increase significantly nuking damage in epic aside from shiradi then nukers wouldn't all be evasion shiradis.
b)Dc casting... All around high saves in EE and some EH+metric truckload of enemies at once in the new quests= forget it. You simply cannot use instakills with their long cooldown when there is that many mobs around. And neither CC and necro casting are helped by the insane amount of orange/red named mob in some quests.
If every mobs had ONE weak save then DC casting would be back and fun.
2)Melee
mobs with 12k+ HP that hit for 200+ per hit and that are immune to the tactical abilities of regular builds= need 25-28% dodge+25% incorporeal+50% displacement to survive melee. The hit bonus of high level mob is so high that it make AC have very limited effect on your chance of getting missed.
The casters in high level quests are brutal and you need evasion and really high save to stay alive.
So that's why monk 6/ paly2/kensei12 are the only melee left
And even cocoon is not enough to heal when there's so many mobs hitting so hard at the same time.
That's why the surviving melee are bladeforged.
If the mobs missed more often against AC there would be a lot more different style of melee. And a lot more people going back to melee.

[Seikojin]

What ever some other guy's build is that is getting more kills than me needs to be nerfed and nerfed hard!

That is what I am reading here.
Since apparently everything is OP.



Although one common thread is nerf (ruin) multiclassing...especially with Monks.

Ruining popular builds should never be a goal.
I say this, and I never run a popular build.
I say this and I hate the fact that everyone plays FotM builds.

Because I think it is not right to totally kill someone's favorite toon.


But.... I have also said in the past that anything that gets overused should be changed.
So if everyone is playing Monchers for instance...... find out why. And make a change to the game so people will play a wider variety of builds.
Preferably a change that doesn't kill Monchers in the process.

But IMO, tying Manyshot and 10K Stars cooldown together will not kill Monchers. It simply removes an advantage that only they have. The Moncher still works, still has many other advantages. But is no longer the best archer just because of 10K stars ability.


Then there is armor and robes.
IMO, beef up armor and it does not remove any ability the robe wearing Monk splash has, but makes other options more appealing.

Simply add a bunch of PRR to armor.
IMO, tie it to BaB.
This way the low level guy doesn't become invulnerable, but the high level guy can take a bunch of hits in EE before he needs to find some healing.

Light, Medium, and Heavy armors should add more PRR with heavy armor adding the most.
(and fix Mithral Full Plate to count as heavy armor.... and maybe some others should work that way too.)

Than there is DR.
Brb DR (and WF?) should be a significant advantage.
I also think actively blocking should give more DR as well.

Shields.
Need a major buff. Defensively.
Again can be tied to BaB somehow.
One thing IMO is shields and especially tower shields should offer more protection from missile attacks.


BTW, these opinions are coming from a guy who plays Rangers.
Light Armor, TWF, Bows..... I never wear Heavy or Medium Armor and I rarely use shields... and never a tower shield.
Yet I think these things should be beefed up even though I don't use them.



Here's another off the wall idea:
Why not add Kensei to the Monk enhancement options and add another offensive option for Fighters.

This would give pure fighters a DPS option that might be more attractive than mixing Monk levels, and give Monks more reason to stay pure as well. (hard to explain my reasoning, but it basically is that I have no issue with pure Monks being supermen, but I have a big issue with everybody playing Monk mixes and gaining super powers from it.....I'd like to see less /Mnks and more pure everybody... not from nerfs but from buffs)

And beef up capstones.

This is what I was seeing as well.

I think Armor feats should contain the juice to beef armor. At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29;
Cloth/robes ~ No AC boost, no PRR boost, no dr, no resist, no caps.
Light ~ +1 ac, +1prr, +1 dr/-, +1 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Medium ~ +2 ac, +1.5prr, +2 dr/-, +2 elemental resist, usual stat caps.
Heavy ~ +3 ac, +2prr, +3 dr/-, 3 elemental resist, usual stat caps.

I think all shields should get a boost to resist as well, passive and active (when blocking). At levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30:
Passive; +1 ac, +1 prr, +1 dr/-, +2 elemental resistance
Blocking: +2 ac, +2 prr, +2 dr/-, +4 elemental resistance

Two weapon blocking should make your offhand weapon count as a shield (this would boost pallys, fighters, and tempests most gutted pre's).

I love the monks using 10k stars and manyshot. I think that is awesome. However, I think manyshot and 10k stars in their own right are broken. It would be easier to make them a toggle that offers +X to doubleshot based on class level and leave it at that. This would reduce the math of one system while promoting an inherently easier one.
Manyshot: When active, provides +25% to doubleshot; +an additional 10% for every Ranger level.
10,000 stars: When active, provides a +25% to doubleshot a ranged attack; + an additional 10% for every monk level.

Or make them passives, if stances is too strict. You can math out the chances if a pure Ranged doubleshooter would be doing 5 arrows per attack in this way.

I think melee attacks should auto-intim with a d20+the damage done; when executed. Throw intim skill on timer. I think this would help a ton for melee crowd control. Or mix and match, have some abilities that auto bluff, diplo, or intim with damage replacing the skill portion.

Bards need a lot of work and so do barbarians.

Bard:
They need a way to add their perform skill tot heir spell dc's. Their enhancement trees are good, but they need some boosting everywhere. Like every single enhancement needs touchup. All tied to bard levels.
Their songs need work. They need to boost better. The feat can be fixed to provide more gains, then the enhancements can stack on top.

Barbarian
Like mentioned above, they need more dr. Pretty much all of their abilities in enhancements needs touching too. I think barbs rage should be boosted significantly. Offer more dr while raged, offer resistance boosts to elements while raged. All tied to barb levels.


Capstones:
I think they should boost the enhancements in their trees in addition tot he boosts they currently provide. +1 here and there, or +1. Maybe a 10% boost here and there, or +20%. Depending on what the enhancement does. So like a stat increase, the capstone would add 1 or 2 more. Crit chance on spells? There are 5 tiers? The capstone would add 1% to each of them, for 5% overall. Etc, etc. I think this level of boost would make pure viable for its role, without penalizing MCers enough to make everyone go pure.

[Daze]

Using synergy is what makes multiclasses work. Take that away and it would be broken. Multiclassing for evasion is older than DDO ...

Again ... 10k stars requires Ki which requires you to be centered which as I said before has it's various drawbacks. Penalizing those that manage to make it work, even if there are a massive amount of those individuals, is not a good plan.

Adding stuff to capstones is a good way to keep pure builds viable. I'm all for increasing them but complaining about pure rangers being outclassed by monkchers in ranged combat is about as effective as complaining about shuriken experts vs other thrower builds.... it just doesn't matter as a comparison due to the requirements to keep those benefits monks provide.

If you want to play a pure ranger go for it. They get things monks don't automatically ... Manyshot, imp precise shot, two weapon fighting line etc etc. Playing to your builds strengths with skill should not be penalized.

[Holleyz]

by that reasoning every front loaded class should be nerfed ... including rangers.

Monks do get a lot at low level but you have to jump through hoops to reap all the rewards. No heavy armor, no shields, weapons list is limited, weight restrictions etc etc.

Seems to me the payoff is worth the hassle. How is that broken exactly?

You don't think a pure build human ranger doesn't have to jump through hoops as well from level 1 all the way to level 20 and beyond? Just like Monks they only can wear light armor (oooh wow I feel protected in this) just like monks the archer ranger cant use a shield and a bow at the same time now can they? and as the ranger may not have weight restrictions thanks to his str isn't it true the monk gets more stars (or Arrows) on 10k stars based on their wisdom? Well the Ranger don't get an extra arrow based on his dex or str. And the Ranger cant use 10k stars AND manyshots now can they? But hey its ok its allright lets nerf the archer class for the 3rd time now instead of getting rid ot the root of the problem and that being monks.

[Gratch]

Many of us play this game for the vast number of class/racial/destiny selections available. It's both sad when there's one overwhelming class/build to play as well as one group of classes to never play... though as you can only touch so many things at a time I always expect some of both. Since I'm not a big fan of nerfs, I'd rather say what I think needs buffing.

Barbarians. They should be the highest DPS in this game - though they should also have offsets to that DPS. Right now they have too many offsets (weak self-healing, self-damaging) with only minimal bonuses to the damage they deliver.

Paladins. Does anyone take more than 4 paladin anymore?

Somewhat bards. Thanks for some of the recents fixes.

Level 18 and Level 20 core class enhancements. Need a thick revamp. Things that don't stack, don't work, or don't do enough really need to be revamped. Along the lines of the recent rogue capstone buffs (though I haven't had a chance to build a 20 rogue to try those out).

Abilities that kick in at half and quarter HP brackets. The only one of these I like is Guardian Angel because it does so much to save your bacon. The all out worst of these ever is Vengeful Magic. Giving the healer big bonus damage while below 50% HP just sets up a fight between FVS'es trying to stay or get at low HP and the rest of the party trying to heal their healer. How about in exchange:
Avenging Magic: Activate to receive a +50% Sacred bonus Spell Critical Damage Multiplier with Fire, Force, Light, and Physical damage spells and 200% hate for 1 minute. Any damage taken will reduce the spell damage bonus to 10%. Cooldown 2 minutes.

[MadGardener]

I would like to add a few more comments.
I play a lot of hours on many different toons and have no one that is uber, I enjoy running with the uber toons, they have worked very hard at making a great characters. I do some Elite content as a group but personally can't do Epic Elite without party support. One of the reasons I do not do much EE content is I don't like running in capped destinies and not getting any experience, one of the big drives for me is xps, if they changed the experience for capped destines, say half exps to adjacent spheres that would be different story.
a revamp to destiny stuff would be great, some worked, many did not and running in no exp capped destiny is....well no exps towards destinies (it takes a long time for me to cap characters so multiply epic TRing is not high, so exps to epic tr is low...not fond of the system they came up with)

SO my point is for character balance are we talking about Elite content only?

My opinion is that this post is spending to much time on the top few % of toons and not on general play. there will always be some tweaks but leave the nerfing out.

having said that I feel that I am the average ballpark of many struggling players, for me I want to be hardy (not die all the time...not doing very well at this goal lol) contribute and be active with the group. so at the expense of being laughed at I will stat what many of my toons look like (epic toons only).....AC ranges from 50-70 have one tank that has 120 but is low DPS so nothing bothers him anyhow. average damage is 70-100 per swing, the rogues does another 100 on sneak and almost all of them have some burst effect that give 200-300. Granted these can go up if i want to have a capped 28 toon in capped line but I like growing characters. spell dc's range from high 30's to my best a low 50's necro wiz(lv28). Again I am told this can go up but without lots of raid? gear or reading a lot of posts on min/max casting, but is the point to have the best min/max toon w/super gear to be viable?


IMO this is about character balance to help make most builds viable to be fun and effective to play at all levels, leave the nerfing and work on other stuff, let all the classes bring something unique to the table and allow good toons to be effective. The overall goal is to complete a quest so our adversities are the obstacle and they determine what you need to be. if the game stats many quest need evasion to be effective with massive dps and DC's then that is what will happen. let us assume that the quest design current and future remain without a fix, then to make good characters effective , fun and viable the a few major changes required.
A completive lv20 capstone, something that competes with evasion and two feats (2lvs of monk) example cleric or FvS lv 20 might get an addition perk of eternal life, once per rest if you are brought to death's door instead u are returned to full health. this is just an example of something powerful and unique and may not fit with DDO's vision.
increase basic damage: assuming epic mobs have 10's of thousands of hit points then basic damage (melee, ranged, caster) will have to scale up, no idea how you do this while not having a greater increase to the top damage changed.
fix or strengthen unique abilities: example the poor bard, let the music flow, strengthen the songs let them be mass effect...(I feel this class could use an overhaul but wow where to begin)
I realizing as I am writing this many of these things are not scaling from heroic to epic is the big issue, a few points of damage from a bard song at lv 10 is not the same as few points for epic content
scaling: items like potions (epic heal potions maybe *10 base you can buy for plat), heroic abilities that scale in epic, etc.

looks like i left to long and half my post disapeared o well will post this and maybe if i have time write the 2nd half.


good luck devs

[GoldyGopher]

Here ya go ..

Fix the thrower crit range ... it's almost the only thing that makes a halfling useful .... that and as sacrifices to the loot gods.

Done

Um, it's Dwarves we sacrifice to the loot god (22 times), and Half-Elfs in dresses (10 times).
No wonder the loot gods aren't pleased.

[Daze]

You don't think a pure build human ranger doesn't have to jump through hoops as well from level 1 all the way to level 20 and beyond? Just like Monks they only can wear light armor (oooh wow I feel protected in this) just like monks the archer ranger cant use a shield and a bow at the same time now can they? and as the ranger may not have weight restrictions thanks to his str isn't it true the monk gets more stars (or Arrows) on 10k stars based on their wisdom? Well the Ranger don't get an extra arrow based on his dex or str. And the Ranger cant use 10k stars AND manyshots now can they? But hey its ok its allright lets nerf the archer class for the 3rd time now instead of getting rid ot the root of the problem and that being monks.

No they don't jump through hoops. You can take armor feats and sacrifice evasion but get everything else.

Light armor > robes in both PRR and AC.

Wisdom is a stat rangers get for mana ... you don't have to pump it to 42 to be effective. You should be glad manyshot is not a stat based bonus. Again rewards for effort are on par.

You have the option of putting on a shield and not losing all of your abilities. Not saying it's a good idea but the option is there. More to the point .. your weapon selection is FAR greater than anything including a kensai monk who is limited to only 1 weapon type in addition to the monk weapons.

If manyshot worked with shurikens you might have an argument but it doesn't.

You pay for that versatility. It's your choice to play a ranger. Play it well and remember the nerf bat swings both ways.

[Daze]

Um, it's Dwarves we sacrifice to the loot god (22 times), and Half-Elfs in dresses (10 times).
No wonder the loot gods aren't pleased.

Well that explains the lack of named loot in the Fire on Thunder Peak.

[slarden]

Just to draw more attention to this:

• Character Balance Survey

We love survey answers. Flood us with information, please!

Thank you for the thread. I filled out the survey but it is missing one of the main elements of character power. Multi-classing vs. pure biulds. The most powerful builds in the game are all multi-class builds. Capstones need some love.

[Candela90]

No I take that back. Pure builds should be more powerful than hybrids or multiclassed characters. The pure builds in the game are becoming extinct. And because of the multiclassing no one groups anymore because everyone can solo. No one needs anyone else. If you want to play a single player game go play a playstation. But back to my point, the pure builds in pen and paper was more powerful than the multiclassed characters so how is it that now in the game the multiclassed has exceeded the pure build in every way? I'm not sure about this (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) but in PnP didn't the multiclass need more xp to level? And they didn't get action points as often as the pure builds did? Like I said I might be wrong, its been almost 20 years since I have played PnP

THIS.

Someone also mentioned wizards needing a buff - I wont agree here. Casual wizard players may need a buff but maxed out wizard in one of the most powerful character in DDO anbd can instantkill 95% of mobs in quest before you get to them close enough to hit them :P.
Capstones should be boosted because they provide nothing really cool compared to like +10 or more from 2 pal levels or much PRR and evasion and stance with +2 to stat from monk lvl.
Divines need DPS/CC/instantkill buff because no one needs healing anymore so at least make them able to be dps/instantkill characters that are worth having in party.

I dont agree that monk needs nerfing. Monk SPLASHES need nefring, pure monk should get a boost :P

[SebastianG]

Capstones for pure class characters need to be improved. I don't think pure class builds should be more overpowered than multi-class characters but choosing one or the other should be a tougher choice - do I want this benefit at the expense of not getting that benefit? As it is now, the choice isn't difficult at all. Stretch out the class requirement per tier in the enhancements (1, 3, 6, 9, 12, at least) and all tiers should be class level only, never character level. Make monk forms (still auto-granted) class level not character level. Actually, most things that are character level should be class level.

[Sam1313]

We don't need any classes Nerfed or Downgraded. A few of the classes needs more love from the Developers. Bards needs some more help. Fighters needs some help. Barbarians needs some help. Monks are fine where they are at. Rogues seems fine where they are at also. Rangers just needs the OLD Slaying Arrows back and better spells. Clerics needs some help swimming and jumping. Favored Souls seems to be ok where they are at. Paladins needs some help. Druids are ok where they are at. Sorcerers are ok where they are at. Wizards needs a complete overhaul. These guys only have a few good spells out of a whole book. The Wizard should be the MOST FEARED class in the game period. These guys are interacting with demons, chemicals and things from other realms and outside of our Universe that would kill any of the other classes.

And at last ALL the characters AC actually NEEDS to work properly in the game. For me I think this is the most broken thing. Really what is the AC for in DDO? I know what it was used for in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, but does it even work in the online game? To me it doesn't.

[Thar]

It's good to see that after 27 pages we all agree that monks need to be nerfed.

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

[Ancient]

Energy burst is nice in EH but in EE or even L26+EH it does less damage than trash mob HP

I one shot EE mobs all the time with energy burst and I'm just a wizard. I've seen pure sorc draconics clear entire spawns (no survivors) on EE.

All around high saves in EE and some EH+metric truckload of enemies at once in the new quests= forget it. You simply cannot use instakills with their long cooldown when there is that many mobs around.

I've seen instakill work just fine in EEs... in fact, if DC casting gets much more of of a boost we are going to be back into the palemaster is a demi-god playbalance.

[oradafu]

nooo nerfs... nerfs make people mad. mad people leave for other games. people like monks as monks are fun, bring other characters up in power to be fun. barbarians were fun once. now they are a fighter without feats that can get a minisule amount of hit pts from raging but then can't self heal with cocoon. their dr was supposed to make up the difference but now dr is common for more than they have. Their DR should be PRR bonus instead. inante 10%+.

So everyone agrees agree that Medium and Heavy Armor characters should somehow gain and use Evasion (if not Improved Evasion) and their Dodge gets uncapped? Good, nice to see everyone is on the same page now. No nerfs to builds, just make sure all builds are able to gain Evasion, AC, PRR, DR and access to Incorporeal.

[Fhauvial]

We don't need any classes Nerfed or Downgraded. A few of the classes needs more love from the Developers. Bards needs some more help. Fighters needs some help. Barbarians needs some help. Monks are fine where they are at. Rogues seems fine where they are at also. Rangers just needs the OLD Slaying Arrows back and better spells. Clerics needs some help swimming and jumping. Favored Souls seems to be ok where they are at. Paladins needs some help. Druids are ok where they are at. Sorcerers are ok where they are at. Wizards needs a complete overhaul. These guys only have a few good spells out of a whole book. The Wizard should be the MOST FEARED class in the game period. These guys are interacting with demons, chemicals and things from other realms and outside of our Universe that would kill any of the other classes.

And at last ALL the characters AC actually NEEDS to work properly in the game. For me I think this is the most broken thing. Really what is the AC for in DDO? I know what it was used for in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition, but does it even work in the online game? To me it doesn't.

Wizards in PnP were horribly broken and could out-shine almost any other character. They become a serious problem for DMs as a Tier I character if other members of the party are Tier III or IV. I don't think they need a buff. That's just going to widen the gap between the classes even more, which is NOT going to help the game.

Clerics don't need help swimming and jumping (and I have two of them). That's always been one of their weaknesses.

The defensive system needs an overhaul. I think everyone agrees with that.

Paladins and Bards are currently Tier IV-VI characters. This needs to change.

[JOTMON]

Other things to look at...


Offer an improved range of Epic Feats:
(same category as Epic Toughness)
-Epic Toughness change Prerequisite CON to 19 so non heavy vested con based toons can access (remove toughness pre-req)
-Evasion - Prerequisite: Dex 19 = successful Reflex saving throw against an effect that normally deals half damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage (doesn't stack with class evasion)
-Divine Grace - Prerequisite: CHA 19 = CHA bonus to Saves (same as paladin does not stack with paladin)
-Divine Mana Regen Passive - Regen Mana 1 SP/min per Divine Caster Level.
-Divine Shield - passive - Absorbs Melee damage into healing energy 5% chance
-Divine Step - Abundant step/wings effect 2 minute cooldown.
.. add some more stuff... like things that dipping classes might provide.. Epic should tighten the gap between classes.


Enhancement line-Divine Archery - Prerequisite 18 Ranger = reduces manyshot cooldown by 30 seconds
Remove same stat abilities from epic destinies beyond the first 2., so no 5x Int from tree can do 2 int and mix for rest.
Monk centering blocks/disables rage effects.. a raged monk should break monk centered stance... apply to fury and centered kensai as well.
Shirardi.. cap max damage.


Add Deflection properties to armor = Armor now provides a 10% light ,20% medium ,30% heavy, reduction to damage while standing still.


Mobs should not be able to spam spells incessantly.. give them a cooldown.
Reduce mob damage and 70+ save requirements for evading 1shot kill spells... such as EE WGU...
1 shot damage kills on a player with full life and 800hp shouldn't happen. its not fun.. just means I have to have evasion and have to have Paly saves..
I ran an evasion melee against Sarva Bellistrae in Thunderhome for flagging .. she spammed every element of Dragon breath attack no save, deals 400-800 damage .. I wish I was a moncher here..
EE Fire on Thunder Peak - seriously.. DA and multiple fast spawning circles of fire damage for 2k+.. even with Energy sheath, cloak and boots I was taking 800 hp damage and failing every evasion save. with 60's saves and evasion.
Change Mob design so in close toe-toe melee is not a detriment.. ie spells don't work at full effectiveness at point blank range.

The whole playing field does need some adjusting. but do it smart .. a surgeon doesn't use a bazooka to fix stuff..

[Delacroix21]

Monk are by NO means overpowered. Why do we see allot of monk splashes? The same reason we USED to see all the rogue splashes, evasion. Monk gets it with feats so wins.


Evasion is usefull in PnP, but not crazy so because you shouldn't be constantly encounter non-stop fireballs. Unfortunately in ddo you do (there are WAY to many casters and they hit to hard) that non-evasion toons can easily get raped.


We need to look at spell mitigation for non-evasion toons. I think shields should give PASSIVE elemental absorption (not just when blocking) that will help tanks with casters, and nerf in monster to-hit and damage will help their meele mitigation. Tanks may actually return to use in ddo!