Player Character Balance

[Sebastrd]

we don't like to break characters or take away fun things that are already there. However, we may have been too cautious about balance changes in the past, especially after a new ability or feature has been launched. We'd like to know if you'd prefer changes to come more quickly, or if we should sit back and let you guys show us what can really be done before making changes.

I think that such issues should be dealt with immediately. If you allow unbalanced abilities or unintended interactions to persist, players get used to them, and it becomes harder to give them up. It's much better to take the toys away before we get attached to them.

[droid327]

There isn't necessarily a problem with the classes, per se....the classes are designed to fill roles. Its those ROLES that are out of balance. And, hence, the classes that best fill the roles that actually work, of course, are the ones that are most popular. To wit:

Tanking: AC is famously pointless due to insane high to-hits on endgame mobs. Dodge is the best way to avoid since its non-mitigatable by enemies. PRR also helps, but comes with a much higher opportunity cost (compared to Dodge) in order to get really high levels, and conversely is somewhat front-loaded, so most builds can just splash a little without building exclusively for it and stack it with Dodge.

Casting: DC casting, like AC, suffers from statflation in endgame; monster saves are too high to warrant the opportunity cost for getting your DCs even in the ballpark...and "reliable" in endgame is basically impossible. Nuking is the only viable form of casting.

CC: Again, unreasonable DCs gate the effectiveness of CCs. Primary CCers (ie Bards), even when they have no-save CCs, have to sacrifice so much DPS for it that they cant really manage the huge statflated HPs they encounter by endgame. The only way to incorporate CC without sacrificing DPS is to build a DPS char and then "backdoor" in some instant no-save CC that doesn't greatly affect your DPS: Shiradi casters.

Melee DPS: Would be viable, except for survivability issues, primarily because both player DPS and monster DPS continued to power-creep while player defenses did not, and monsters just tacked on tens of thousands of HP. So monsters just meatbag-tank, while players have to kite, leading to...

Ranged DPS: The only build besides nukers that can consistently output enough DPS to make a difference to huge meatbag HP levels, while avoiding insane high incoming melee damage. The king by default, but especially when you introduce the multiplicative synergy that is Monkcher (10KS+MS+Adrenaline+Slayer).

---------------------

Broad-scale suggestions to fix this:

-Reduce monster HP curves, and nerf some of the hugest burst-DPS abilities, the ones that are completely disproportionate to other DPS builds.
-Reduce monster saves/CRs in Epic a little, especially EE, so that an Epically-geared DC caster is *reliable* in EE while a well-equipped one is *passable*.
-Reduce monster to-hits in Epic so that reasonably achievable ACs are still reasonably effective, and high-end achievable ACs are very effective. It shouldn't be a "heavy armor or pajamas" situation. Reduce Monk's AC bonus accordingly, considering their Dodge is already impressive.

The root of most of these problems, basically, lies in the product of power creep and statflation, that has made many roles essentially inviable by endgame - defense became impossible (the only answer was to avoid being hit at all), beating their saves became impossible, and the only currency that mattered was DPS, to be able to get through insane-HP meatbag enemies.

If you rebalance the monsters, then you rebalance the ways you can effectively attack those monsters, which means you've rebalanced the roles, and currently useless classes will find their use again.

[Singular]

Artificers need a significant boost in the endgame. They are awesome up until about level 17 or 18. Probably overpowered. But then their damage output stops scaling, and they're downright weak by the endgame.

However, there's really no reason that that boost should be boulder toss. It really was a bit weird. I don't care about the flavor/lore aspect at all, I just mean it was weird/broken that artis were forced to use a physical damage ability from a melee destiny because they lacked any decent scaling force damage option of their own.

(I still think boulder toss's damage should scale with strength and have a Knockdown chance with a DC based on strength -- it should be a situational ranged damage option for melee builds that doesn't require going monkcher/manyshot.)

I can agree with what you're saying above. I can see BT being str dependent, for sure. I have these issues:

1. EDs are supposed to have a little for every class. W/out BT, casters only have Primal Scream.

2. There's nothing being put into the game to replace BT for arties. Artificers have no epic destiny - we basically cling to the coattails of other classes and I cannot imagine that a good ED will be made that can produce as much dps as Fury. Out of all the EDs, we have, what, 2 ones that are good for end game? Possibly 3 b/c some people can run in Draconic in EE. Not so many, but some can.

3. These kinds of changes aren't about realism. That's a ridiculous notion - this is a fantasy game. So what's their point for nerfing BT? They don't like Shiradi casters using it? Then they should address that issue. They just want BT to be like someone throwing a boulder? Then make it str based - and they should have cleaned it up 2 years ago, when EDs came out.

[silinteresting]

well,

after a night of thinking about this from different angles, no mater
how many times i was thinking of nerfing something i always came back
to the same answer. why nerf when all we need to do is boost.

i feel that if certain epic destinies and certain capstones get boosted
then nerfing is redundant and a better balance will be achieved WITHOUT
****ing the player base off and would actualy make people happy so a WIN WIN
all the way.

your friend sil

[KingKoz]

If you start making balance changes to classes to please the whiners please count on me canceling my sub renewel and quitting the game we need less changes from pnp not more I am on the border already but that kind of **** will do it.

Should we say goodbye to you now then? DDO IS NOT Dungeons & Dragons pnp. Change in mmorpgs are inevitable. If there was no change, they'd lose subscribers faster imho.

Koz

[merentha]

My boss was having a conversation with me not all that long ago and was asking how to increase the performance of the entire team. After all it affects his performance evaluation. I commented that if what he wants is an overall improvement then he needs to empower the weaker performers and reward them for greater efforts. I cautioned that in turn he does not want to discourage those who are performing or he'd just flip the table and stay where he is.

What amuses me is that in the opening comments there is an implied suggestion to bring the top performers down to the level of the lower performers.

Why not ask for the weak prestige trees and why we do not play a pure class. What we would improve and why? This would increase options positively and would more likely increase the diversified play in the game.

Is the player culture Turbine wants to foster one that pulls the "strong and exceptional" down to mediocrity or to build up the "weak and mediocre" to become exceptional?

This is a fantasy game, I log on to feel awesome.

[sephiroth1084]

It's fine if I die a couple times, but not being able to engage a boss because he'll demolish me in a couple hits just sucks. If named items and drop rates weren't so much better at EE, I would have no problem just leaving EE to the pros.

I don't have an archer or caster currently at epic levels, so this comes mainly from the perspective of a melee guy.

Sounds to me like you shouldn't be running EE. Mind you, I think EE needs some work, but it shouldn't be openly accessible to everyone. Besides, if you're struggling that much with EE, drop rates aren't going to be that much better for you, since you could probably run EH 2 or 3 times in the same amount of time it takes you to hit EE once, and the drop rates on EE aren't 100-200% better than on EH. Now, EE-only items are a different story, of course, but if you aren't running the toughest content, do you need the absolutely best gear? Sure, people want it, because it's there, but is it necessary?

That's a solid idea. Maybe have the AA 18 core reduce the manyshot cooldown by x%, and the AA capstone reduce it by an additional 2x%. What "x" should be I can't say with any insight.

Absolutely NOT AA. Right now AA is far and away the best enhancement tree for an archer, dramatically overshadowing DWS, and is accessible without dipping a toe in ranger. It doesn't need more. Hence, my suggestion to either stick in the high level DWS cores, or as an innate ranger ability at level 15+, that is, something monkchers cannot get.

In today's game, there are pretty much four builds that rule them all, right? In no particular order:

Monkcher
Bladeforged Centered Kensei
Shirardi arcane
Pale Master (pure 20 sun elf completionist)

There's no justification to roll up a pure arcane archer instead of a monkcher. There's no justification to roll up any front line melee other than a bladeforged centered kensei. For first life arcanes trying to play EE content, it's shirardi or bust. The least dominant is the pale master, who has the darkside cleric nipping at its heels as a slightly weaker but viable alternative. The first three are head and shoulders above the alternatives.

Which are largely due to:

• EE mobs (even trash) hitting too hard for melees to reasonably fight them, even for tanking builds whose role is to be able to stand toe-to-toe with the biggest, baddest brutes in the game
• EE mobs having too much HP for casters to nuke them, even with the powerful Draconic Incarnation abilities
• EE mobs' saves are so inflated that a character has to go all-in on their DC-stat in order to have any chance at succeeding in landing their spells/abilities, and even then, success may be out of reach (this hurts nuking, crowd control, insta-kills, tactical feats, debuffs)
• most self-healing options for non-casters are far too weak, so something like the Bladeforged stands head and shoulders above everyone else with their Reconstruct SLA
• the synergy of some epic destiny abilities with archery or spellcasting ends up putting more power in their hands than was probably intended
• there are no reasonable alternatives available to Ten Thousand Stars
• Pale Master's save DCs are so far ahead of everyone else's that it's tough to balance content for PMs and other casters at the same time

[SirValentine]

As others have mentioned, some balancing issues should be addressed more through quest design, monster stats, etc., rather than through character changes. But I'm sure character changes will be required as well.

I would like to request that, whatever changes you make, as much as possible try to keep them to confined as much as possible to the things that are already unique to DDO: the enhancement system, the Epic Destiny system, etc.. I would prefer that you NOT change base class features as defined in the base game rules of D&D.

I am not a typical MMO player. I have never played any other MMO, and don't foresee doing so. I only started playing due to 2 factors both being present: first, I didn't need a subscription (though I've payed plenty of money to Turbine over the years since); and, second, it was DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS! But I suspect that some fair portion of your player base over the years and continuing to this day, come to DDO because of the D&D, not because of whatever unique innovative set of enhancements or fancy gear or even balance or whatever. The game has evolved, of course, and the difference between an on-line game and pen-and-paer imposes their own sets of circumstances. But, please, as much as you reasonably can, stay true to your roots.

[Aelonwy]

Balance Issues

The biggest problem with balance issues seems to be that in Epic (EE at least) you the devs have designed everything to come down to two factors DPS and DAMAGE AVOIDANCE. Because our opponents have become insane HPbags with commensurately enormous saves (meaning DC casting and tactical feats are all but useless) dealing an amount of damage that could be a player character’s entire hp bar (certainly not always but there are some monsters that can one shot a character) our choices have devolved into “how do I craft a character that can deal as much sustained and burst DPS as possible? And how do I avoid their DPS best?” Self healing is a secondary question since most classes can achieve this one way or another now although Barbarians seem to have the hardest time achieving this.

The answer to the question of DAMAGE AVOIDANCE amounts to fight from a distance, dodge, displacement and evasion. These four abilities for damage avoidance are the best and it just so happens that the two favourite builds for Epic Elite, namely Shiradi Caster, and Monkcher take advantage of several of these in either build. Both also do very good if not the best DPS.

If you want to balance these builds with the rest of us you really should answer the fundamental problems:

1. Fighting from a distance is not just better its almost necessary for some builds to survive a single encounter. This isn’t about our DPS but the Mobs’ DPS.

2. Dodge, dodge is more important than any AC. Mobs just don’t miss. AC means almost nothing. PRR has value but the value just isn’t enough for the incoming damage most times. And Damage Reduction is a joke. A sad joke.

3. Displacement. Displacement can equal survival in some situations, but… but once again you have given the mobs so many tools to overcome our defenses, i.e. a lot of our opponents now all seem to have True Seeing thus blur and displacement become useless for some of the toughest encounters.

4. Evasion. Oh mighty evasion and even mighter Improved Evasion. With a single save avoid half or (Improved Evasion) all damage. Only three classes and one ? Epic Destiny grant evasion. These are Rogue 2 levels, Monk 2 levels, Ranger 9 levels, and Shadow Dancer final innate. And evasion isn’t just King versus mobs its awesome versus traps as well. Traps that on Epic Elite can one-shot kill. Yes evasion depends on getting a reliable reflex save but it can be done on most classes. However, the two poorest classes in terms of damage avoidance namely Barbarian and Bard cannot splash paladin one of the easier go to ways of getting good saves for Epic Elite. I would suggest making evasion (NOT improved evasion) more available somehow.

While you may need to make some nerfs in my humble opinion it would be better if you adjusted the underpowered epic destinies and classes.




Classes that need some adjustment:

Bard: Perhaps an enhancement that will give charisma to all saves like Paladin, or perhaps a choseable feat that does the same. Certainly there should have been an enhancement in Warchanter that allowed for Charisma to hit and damage. Warchanter tree doesn’t add enough benefits or damage to compare with splashing a few melee levels. So if you really want that playstyle ignore the Warchanter tree and add 2-6 of your favored melee class. A sonic DOT spell or SLA would be very appropriate for Bard either as a class spell to choose at 5th or 6th level or as an enhancement.

Barbarian: Either add PRR to each level of Barbarian and a capstone that gives an additional 20 for 40 at cap in one tree or add damage reduction at each level with a capstone that gives an additional 10 for a total 30 DR at cap in one tree. The way PRR works and the amount of damage a front line DPS takes this is actually barely a drop in the bucket.

Paladin: Currently only desired for splashing two levels. ? I have no idea what it would take to improve this class, it was too dull for me. Possibly some free feats at higher levels.

Monks should not be the best archers. Ten Thousand Stars and Multishot. There should be some increased penalty or cooldown to using both of these abilities. Pure rangers should have a way to slightly reduce the cooldown for multishot if only by 15-20 seconds.




Epic Destinies:

Primal Avatar: Very weak. Avatar of Nature either needs to do far more damage or its attack speed needs to increase some. The spells are awful expensive. Just can’t seem to justify using them consistently enough to spend points in them.

Shadowdancer: Almost right. Dark Imbue ment should do at least 50% more damage.

Fatesinger: Epic Moment isn’t useable on bosses. Not really EPIC then is it?! This destiny could use an evasion like ability even if it has a limited duration and/or limited number of charges. A fatesinger in PnP is about changing ones fate via altering a single roll or rerolling a one, having bonuses on saves and checks, etc. This could definitely translate into avoiding some ill-fate by having an evasion-like ability even temporarily.
A dodge type bonus or ability would also make sense.

Magister: Summons don’t scale well with higher level content, Sigils need to be stances or auras. This destiny feels weak but I am unsure what else could be done to make it competitive.

Shiradi Champion: Might need some kind of nerf for casters while at the same time giving it a bump for ranged fighting. Remember its not just monkchers and shiradi casters that use this destiny but pure AA, Deepwood Snipers, some rogue Mechanics and Artificiers.

PS if you nerf Fury of the Wild for ranged fighting that will leave only Shiradi and possibly Shadowdancer as viable options for that play style. As it is, it feels like a balanced choice for that playstyle for me but others strongly disagree. (BTW I have only a pure AA) Remember that in that tree there is virtually nothing that works for ranged except for Adrenaline and Unbridled Fury. Take one away and it will just be a chore to get through for fate points and nothing more for ranged. However, if or when you create an Artificier destiny should this be decent for ranged then nerfing FOTW will be less of an issue.

You might also want to look at the fact that through your design decisions monks that primarily use handwraps have almost no destiny options other than GMOF because so many destinies do not work with unarmed fighting. This means Kensai Monks have incredibly more options.

I’ll have to reserve my opinions on the Divine Destinies they are already undergoing a set of changes.




Summary
Less nerfs. Improve the underpowered classes/destinies. Rebalance your over-inflated hpbag mobs with saves that even the Pnp Gods would envy.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Let's look at this in a different scope devs.

Roll back the clock to April 2007 with Mod 4 "Reaver's Bane"

Content was designed to challenge ALL classes.
At that time level cap was raised to 14.
Vorpals, smiters etc worked on a crit roll not 20.
Casters were more aware of mana usage.
Intim-tanks were just that, and no other class could do their job.
In fact all classes main attributes were unique unto themselves.

What does this have to do with the OP?
We had decent, not great balance between classes AND content.

This whole solo-ability on EE, (hard in 2007) was unheard of, or very rare.

We can all debate what class needs what, or taken away, but it pointless if the content doesn't match, challenge or "require" certain attributes from the classes as a whole.

When casters are better trap-monkeys than rogues, monks better at intim & threat generation than traditional intim-tanks, etc... the point is VERY PLAIN to see.

Devs, you messed with game mechanics, and totally deflated the value of AC, PRR in favor of evasion & dodge.
You messed with character development so much (with the long awaited enhancement pass) that true builds are passe, and pretty much bottle-necked us all with a splash of monk to be on a competitive with the min/max scenario. The new raids bosses, almost require a ranged attack.

You also screwed up the balance with loot when Faerun content was released. It made ToD sets almost worthless. DT armor went in the bank, and Greensteel took a back seat to all the new weps.

You FAILED to design content/ gear & characters in harmony with each other. Plain & simple.

It's a simple fix (lol) make AC, Intim, PRR, count again. Take away the NEED for evasion & dodge and reward those that focus in their chosen fields. Revamp the rewards for true builds (because what we have now is less than viable)

You all have done amazing things with this game, but continually shoot yourselves in the foot with lack of insight and planning in regards to content, gear & characters on the same page.

Roll back the special weapon attributes (vorpal on a crit, not a natural 20)
Put restrictions on multi-classing to accommodate older and/or true builds.
Take away some of the monk's "power", ability to "master" everything, and the new nonsense of "requiring" a splash to be competitive.
Take a look at how armor & ac/prr work (again)

As for content, why spend time and money to design stuff we only run once.

Another point to consider, create a quest setting that requires a balanced party. What the heck, we have a solo setting SO...........

[Scraap]

4. Evasion. Oh mighty evasion and even mighter Improved Evasion. With a single save avoid half or (Improved Evasion) all damage. Only three classes and one ? Epic Destiny grant evasion. These are Rogue 2 levels, Monk 2 levels, Ranger 9 levels, and Shadow Dancer final innate. And evasion isn’t just King versus mobs its awesome versus traps as well. Traps that on Epic Elite can one-shot kill. Yes evasion depends on getting a reliable reflex save but it can be done on most classes. However, the two poorest classes in terms of damage avoidance namely Barbarian and Bard cannot splash paladin one of the easier go to ways of getting good saves for Epic Elite. I would suggest making evasion (NOT improved evasion) more available somehow.

Not singling you out in particular, just that that's the second time now folks have referred to Improved Evasion as the one that reduces damage to 0. It's not. Improved is the one that lets a reflex dumped rogue or monk take as much damage as an off-the-dice-on-the-high-side pure pally. (Half on a failed save.). I'd say evasion vs armor would be in a decent spot if a pure there would shave off both half damage vs spell, and half vs blade when wearing fullplate (and by half, I mean half of the incoming damage of an evasion build that built for PRR, not just half raw damage.)

[arabellah]

Quote "It is not classes that need to be balanced. For all intents and purposes, DDO is no longer a class-based game.

The combination of the enhancements pass (front-loaded enhancements, few restrictions on investing in multiple trees), the front-loaded class abilities that DDO has always had, and the epic levels and epic destinies that are not dependent on class has brought us to a point where it just doesn't make much sense to talk about a fighter being more or less powerful than a bard.

It is builds and playstyles that need to be balanced.

You should have us ranking things like "How important to you is evasion", "How important is the ability to add CHA to saves", "How important is spell-based divine self-healing", etc. These are the meaningful components of a DDO character, not its specific class makeup.

Consider two of the current premier melee builds -- Cetus and Zeus. One of these is mostly fighter, and one is mostly rogue. Does that matter? One gets most of its DPS from the Acrobat enhancement, one gets its from Fighter feats and Kensai enhancements. So what? Both get evasion. Both get monk stances. Both get Divine Grace for saves from Paladin. Both get self healing and immunities from Bladeforged race. There are various other differences, and I know I'd much prefer to play the Zeus build than the Cetus one, whereas others might prefer Cetus. But the point is that the relative abilities of these two builds have very little to do with their primary class. " Quote


DDO has become a game of Mashup players that have no class and are designed to do all and have everything. The raids and newer quests are designed and powered for these Players. and have become significantly more chalangeing by way of damage and Hit points. The actual chalanges have dropped as its all about player DPS and health; no game , adventure or quest left. The classic cards are an example of the problem in that they can give flask of endless stoneskin or free action. so more unattached Buffs that encourage Uber playstyle with no style. as the guy above says there are no Classes left as most pure builds are very poor and have trouble surviving they have been sidelined. even the races have suffered cf elf vs bladeforged.

I really hate nerfing and would ask that you dont do this or as little as possible. small boosts to capstones, sort out the enhancments and epic destinys should resolve many issues without ruining the fun for those that want the Superman character.

I really think that you devs dont understand D&D. the druid was balanced by his/her nature and alingment. the skills and abilities were great but no damaging animals or trees and you stay outside these are major restrictions.
However just rolling out the rules into a game with no thought to the whole and you get imbalance. the enhancments are a case in point skills and powers gave players a way to customize their characters not uber max them.
I had a male fighter and the DM and i invented the skill of wenching for this character which was often used even in combat and to his detrement. the point is that DDO isnt D&D. The roleplay isnt a major feature of DDO so many inherant balancing facets that were in play have been removed. Most just look at whats possible and go from there... And you just opened every option and let them loose. in D&D a multiclass is a weak option limited by the highest level in a class , DDO just says Char Level.

You now have a bland mash . no Characters with arguments about the unfairness that ranged dont get hit and melee do, so some melee want a damage free contest even toe to toe. maybe you could introduce the 10 foot monk pole and they could fight from far away. then there wouldnt be either type left at all. It all reminds me of the 2 handed sword a fighter draws to fight the monster in a 5 foot corridor. Yeh and thats going to work. maybe he could use it as a lance. back in the late 70's we always took halberd as it did the most damage none wondered if it was reasonable. 10 foot poles in the backpack were common too. In all this there seems a loss of the fantasy reality that forms the base and structure for all the fun, the quests, the textures and landscape and in its place is the grab bag of anything goes.

And just to note this is your mess Devs. you want Reasons well they were your choices. So why did you do it ?

[Seljuck]

I think that such issues should be dealt with immediately. If you allow unbalanced abilities or unintended interactions to persist, players get used to them, and it becomes harder to give them up. It's much better to take the toys away before we get attached to them.

Fully agree with OP. If you seek balance you must act fast and wise. Allowing people used to "weak" mechanic or unexpected ability synergy that outclass mostly every other build should never take place.

[HatsuharuZ]

Besides dealing with the monkcher and epic elite issue, there is another balance issue that needs to be addressed: Enhancements. Here are a few major issues (in my opinion), listed in no particular order of importance:

1) Some enhancement bonuses give the same type of benefit and have the same bonus type as randomly-generated, commonly available items. Examples: "Warmaster" the bard warchanter capstone gives a +5 competence bonus to attack and damage to the target. "Bestial Nature" from the nature's warrior tree gives an insight bonus to saves.


2) Not all classes have 3 class enhancement trees. Bards, fighters, paladins, druids, artificers and favored souls all have only two. This guarantees that all mostly pure builds with these classes will be similar, in the sense that they will have many of the same enhancements. Compare the number of enhancement choices available to a cleric, as opposed to those available to an fvs, for instance. A cleric can either be a light-based spellcaster, a CC/negative energy caster, a healer, a melee combatant or any combination of two of the previous playstyles. An FvS is either a melee combatant or a fire/light offensive spellcaster.


3) Capstones and core abilities are sometimes not powerful enough to be considered worth taking. In general, I think that capstones/core abilities that are activated abilities and/or have limited uses are much weaker than capstones/core abilities that have passive effects.

Example 1) Compare the bard capstones "Maestro of Life and Death" and "Warmaster". The first one gives the bard Heal and Wail of the Banshee as spells in their spellbook. The second gives a 12 second buff to a target, which is limited in usefulness by both it's length and the fact that it's a single-target song.

Example 2) Compare the ranger Arcane Archer and Deepwood Stalker capstones. The former gives the ranger 20% doubleshot chance, which is essentially a 20% increase in damage. The latter capstone gives the ranger a bonus that he can gain simply by moving a bit closer to the target. Which of these would you rather have?

Example 3) Compare the barbarian capstones "Storm's Eye" and "Mind over Magic". The former deals 1d20 damage to the barbarian (I'm sure that if you calcalute the damage done to the player vs. the damage done to the enemy you'd agree that this capstone should be sealed in Khyber, devs) in order to deal 1 extra damage to the enemy. The latter guards the barbarian against spells subject to spell resistance with a lovely stacking bonus to SR.

Example 4) Compare the wizard core abilities in the Pale Master tree to the core abilities in the Eldritch Knight tree. In both cases, the core abilities at levels 3, 6, 12, and 18 are exclusive, permanent toggles that cost spell points. However, in the PM tree each toggle (form) gives unique benefits, while in the EK tree the only difference between the toggles is the fact that they are all different elements. The spellsword toggles would have been more useful as splashable abilities in the tree itself, rather than core abilities.


4) Some classes pay more AP for the same benefits. For example: In the bard warchanter tree, martial weapon proficiency and medium armor proficiency are fifth tier abilities, thus barring the bard from taking fifth tier abilities in any other tree. On the other hand wizards and sorcerers can get martial weapon proficiency at tier 2 and medium armor proficiency at tier 4. The point is, a pure wiz/sorc can get both of those benefit sooner, and with less cost, said cost being the tier 5 lock out.


5) There are, generally, more benefits to multiclassing than pure-classing, especially for builds that rely on physical damage. This ties with point #3 above, but there are other ways to make going pure more viable than just increasing the power of core abilities and capstones.

Suggestion 1) Give every class that doesn't have a lvl 20 feat a "class capstone", which would be an ability that is useful to that class. Rogues might get this, but a monk would not. Favored Souls would have their DR increased, as would Barbarians.

Suggestion 2) Allow a pure character to access tier 5 abilities from more than one of their class trees. (I favor this one, personally)

Suggestion 3) Give more AP to pure characters at level 20. Around 4 would do.


6) Some classes gained impressive enhancement buffs in the enhancement overhaul, while others did not.

Example 1) Most paladin enhancements in the Knight of the Chalice tree were copied and pasted from the old system, while the wizard's Pale Master enhancement tree gave that play-style some serious buffs, such as a skeletal pet, negative energy healing amp, and light damage resistance.

Example 2) The fighter and paladin "defender" trees no longer allow the user to gain full benefits without the use of a shield. Furthermore, the benefits of the stance have become more expensive compared to the old enhancement system in terms of AP. This is a huge nerf.


I think that points 1, 3, 4 and 5 can and should be dealt with as soon as possible. Points 2 and 6 will require some thought. Especially 6, which must be dealt with on a class-by-class basis.

[Saekee]

Remember this critique about education? It is a nice analogy

I think some great things happened in the enhancement pass for balance. Rogues, for example, got a boost with Knife Specialization. Dex builds almost became viable but then it was not carried through to its fullest potential. there have been many forum discussions on this, including such points as the nerf to full off-hand damage for Dex Damage (why was that done?).
Here are some suggestions that have not been mentioned above:

Create xp bonuses that would favor a variety of classes:
Why not create special XP rewards for varied playstyle and contributions? that will encourage diverse group builds. Here are the current rewards from the wiki:
Killing monsters: Killing a large portion of the monsters present can confer
+10% Aggression bonus
+15% Onslaught bonus
+25% **Conquest** bonus
Not killing monsters: On the flip side, completing a mission while slaying very few enemies can grant
+5% Discreet bonus
+7% Devious bonus
+10% **Insidious Cunning** bonus
Disarming traps: Disarming a large portion of the traps present can confer
+8% Tamper bonus
+10% Neutralization bonus
+15% **Ingenious Debilitation** bonus
Finding secret doors: Finding a large portion of the secret doors present can confer
+8% Observance bonus
+10% Perception bonus
+15% **Vigilant Sight** bonus
Destroying breakable objects: Destroying a large portion of the breakable objects (barrels, vases, caskets, etc.) present can confer
+8% Mischief bonus
+10% Vandal bonus
+15% **Ransack** bonus

What do these rewards encourage? Find secret doors (so slot True Seeing or Detect Secret doors (I know this was nerfed)); break stuff (grr hulk smash); remove traps (good for rogues in parties); Insidious cunning (stealth tactics--this was a nice addition for a specific playstyle). So in the end, a group is awarded if they kill and smash with rogue skills thrown in for some traps/doors.
What if you had other sources of XP optional bonuses like these suggestions:
Defending thy friends (from healing, raising and buffing other members of a group)
Seducing the Enemy (from successful enchantment-type spells)
Cartographer (from mapping out the entire dungeon)
Hosting Pacifists (for the members who do not harm any mobs -->I know pikers would get this so somehow create a prevention, i.e. they need to arrive at the end of the quest)
Endurance (for when certain players get pounded but survive--favors tanking)
Untouchable (when all players go through a quest without anyone taking any damage)
Calling on the Horde (bonuses for summoning)
etc. etc.
Use your imagination! This would also encourage grouping.

Nerf the Use of Items to Compensate for Lack of Skills
Here is a nerf: make some item qualities function only with the appropriate skill points. For example, you can equip a true seeing item but you cannot work it unless you have at least 10 skill points in Search or Spot. You can make this basic skill requirement on all sorts of gear: dodge requiring ranks in Tumble; Power/Wizardry/Archmagi requiring points in Spellcraft; Deadly items requiring points in Intimidate; etc. etc. It seems strange that a toon that can barely tumble can dodge at 25%...I know it is a fantasy game but INT would be more valuable in this change. By doing this, more build variety will appear since limits will be created on item attribute use.

Recalculate Saving Throws
Change saving throws so that the calculations use ALL six stats, since the saving throw anyway represents the wholeness of a person. This will favor different classes and builds:
Fort: (STR+CON)/2
Reflex: (Dex+INT)/2
Will: (WIS+CHA)/2
then use six selectable feats that allow a character to isolate one of those, i.e. Insightful reflexes means only INT is used for reflex (already exists); change Lightning Reflexes to use only DEX for reflexes; Force of Personality exists for Charisma only for Will, now add 'Power of Faith' (or some clever name) for Wisdom only; etc. etc. This then allows a broader range of character builds to survive content. Makes sense anyway; an intensely charismatic person with low wisdom still should automatically have a high will save; a super muscled beast of a fighter, even with moderate Con, should be able to handle poisons etc. better than one that is a Finesse build with the same CON; INT, which represents insight and knowledge, aids in avoiding precisely the kinds of issues that invoke reflex saves (traps, AOE attacks etc.) through knowing their mechanics.

I know these are unusual suggestions but i believe that they could be addresses as a way to work on 'underlying' causes for some classes being successful over others.

[Sebastrd]

• Ranged combat vs. Melee Combat vs. Spellcasting, at all character levels. As an example, not so long ago, ranged combat was largely considered inferior to melee combat. We made some conscious decisions to try to improve the viability of ranged combat. That's at least a partial success, but has brought along some issues of its own.

The problem is not overpowered ranged combat, the problem is the way in which it was improved. Ranged combat is only good under a specific set of circumstances with a very small set of powers. There is only one way to build a legitimately powerful ranged character, and it requires manyshot, ten thousand stars, the monk class, and one of two epic destinies. To make matters worse, the effort to reign in ranged power by adding a doubleshot penalty to manyshot just made it worse, bacause it removed doubleshot as a build consideration.

If you really want to fix ranged combat, I suggest:

• Remove the doubleshot penalty from Manyshot.
• Put Manyshot and 10K Stars on the same cooldown.
• Return Slaying Arrows to an imbue, instant kill on vorpal attacks, subject to deathward.
• Allow Arcane Archers to stack imbues, but remove them upon entering/exiting dungeons or resting at shrines like other buffs. That way the more imbues an AA wants, the fewer SP they'll have for other things.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

I think it is really important to not lose sight of the scope of this discussion. Changes don't only affect players who want to complete EE. There are many posts in this thread talking about inflated stats of mobs in EE, a valid issue that should be addressed.

There are many average players who don't have the time or desire to be ultimate min/maxers. These players might play pure builds or slightly splashed multi-class without the knowledge of shiradi casters, Cetus builds or monkchers.

Changes or nerfs to abilities that give the average player that one big crit number or a little more survivability just for the sake of balance and because some top echelon players have found ways to make the ultimate synergy is going to hurt the game more than help it. It comes down to what is fun for people to play. Not being able to contribute to a quest is not fun for anyone, so when changes are made, don't forget about the average player who may be under-geared and not an expert in the game who suddenly find their character less capable because changes were made to prevent the top tier players from crushing all the content.

Someone made the analogy of of a pinto and a ferrari in a school zone, but put them on the autobahn and see what happens. I prefer the analogy of an average driver and a professional race car driver at the Indy. Take two people with the same build, one an expert player and one a casual. It is the skill behind the build and that defines the capabilities of that character, not whether it has splashed monk or is blitzing.

[Chaios]

Dungeons & Dragons: Online isn't perfectly balanced. We're interested in discussing what balance means, and how important balance is to you, the players. We want to know how often you'd like to see balance changes.

don't let perfect be the enemy of sufficient... I saw that on the internet.

Balance means that the best offensive build is not also the best defensive build.
It also means that the most broadly capable build not be as powerful as the most narrowly focused build in the tasks the focused build has focused on...

On a scale of 1 to 5, balance is a three. As long as the rest of the things I value in the game are equal to or above that 3, I'm happy.

I'd like to see balance change once, to something good enough that most players are satisfied with it, and then stay that way for the duration. That would be perfect. But, you know... many small corrections as the need arises might be good enough.

[Delacroix21]

A pattern forming here in posts that the real problem lies not in the characters in EE, but the monsters.


I believe the first goal should be to nerf EE monsters saves, hp, damage, spell resistance, spell penetration (spell resistance for players is useless), and to hit.


Then try buffing other trees. Make fate singer have some spells to cast and buff it's meele epic moment, make GMoF petals use spell power so they scale (this ed is weak sauce for meele). Fix avatar of nature to attack at normal attack speed (less damage then before but still a lot). And so on!

[AlmGhandi]

Hi,

I did your survey just now. It's a very blunt instrument, which I doubt will collect much useful information about balance issues.

What he, and others have said...

Do you actually have the intestinal fortitude to follow through on the conclusions that this discussion will have, especially when many of the adjustments might have to be made to purchased classes and race? Only time will tell whether this turns out to be another fake or bungled attempt at consultation or it is in fact the real deal.

Well look at what they did to warforged...

So, I don't know what I should say on the theme of balance... or where to begin. In my experience the player knowledge and the gear makes more of a difference to the survivability than the class... which is not to say that a Shiradi Spammer or Monkcher is not overpowered, because it is...

I think the low hanging fruit should be adjusted from the enhancements for multi-classing purposes... maybe even making Evasion such that it requires 2 levels MORE in Monk/Rogue/Ranger than any other class... either that or make it a selectable feat (like Spring Attack).... That is the first thing I think needs to be addressed.