Speed Record Tracking Discussion Thread

[Knight_slayer]

Question #1: Based on the responses we will re-instate previous records, less the run in question..

Can you prove that this person used that weapon? Has that person admitted it or was there something in the screen shot that proved it? It might seem like that was the case but if your not sure why are you publicly shaming them? You don't rate proof as being very important it seems.

[Ivan_Milic]

Valid point and I should appologise, I'm not calling anyone out, I realise its possible, but this many people doing that! Unlikely, funny that there was a duping bug with the raid launch. There were teir 3 wraps on the SE one day after release on Ghallanda.

You would be surprised how many people waited for this raid to come, prepared all their chars for it, have lots of raid timers.

[Ivan_Milic]

Someone posted a SS of pendent of time active inside a dungeon (seems to be removed now, only minutes ago though). No way to show solo dungeons were completed solo with a SS.

There are also many more, I feel like I've said this before.

That bug happened to me 2 times, was pretty funny.

[Knight_slayer]

You would be surprised how many people waited for this raid to come, prepared all their chars for it, have lots of raid timers.

Yes I am one of them. My guild mates have many toons ransacked every week yet still not enough mats for even 1 weapon teir 3, let alone multiple.

[ishr]

Can you prove that this person used that weapon? Has that person admitted it or was there something in the screen shot that proved it? It might seem like that was the case but if your not sure why are you publicly shaming them? You don't rate proof as being very important it seems.

i'm still investigating the run in question.

[Knight_slayer]

i'm still investigating the run in question.

Agh. So why have you shamed them publicly before you even know if they cheated or not? Might just be a tactic in the dungeon in question that you are just unaware of.

If your going to reinstate old runs, then do that. Excluding one run for cheating, with no proof of cheating! kinda lame. Either you request proof by video or if not, just accept the run timnes posted. Telling people they can post solo completions without any proof, them calling them a cheat because you don't understand the completion time is being hypocritical.

[Cetus]

Can you explain to me how you managed to get multiple (even 1) teir 3 weps in such a short time? Considering ransack, I just cant work that one out. Well, I know about the duping bug but the good folks in this thread wouldn't cheat, would they?

My guild runs both raids at least 2x each every day. On the weekend we run them maybe 4 x each. Knowone is even close to teir 3. Yet the good folks in this thread seem to have no ransack or something.

What are you talking about?

During our ransack runs we can easily approach a dozen runs a day - a norm run takes a half hour on average. Lots of people pass phlogs to each other. By now, its easy to have several tier 3 weapons with some coordination. Some folks short man and plant twoboxes in the raid for mats as well. TR'ing resets ransack timer.

Not everyone who has multiple tier 3 weapons is an immediate duper. You get 1/3 of the phlogistons on your 20th lists as well, and bypasses are easy to come by. The 90 phlogistons you need to make say, 3 weapons, is really not that big of a deal in THREE WEEKS time.

[Knight_slayer]

What are you talking about?

During our ransack runs we can easily approach a dozen runs a day - a norm run takes a half hour on average. Lots of people pass phlogs to each other. By now, its easy to have several tier 3 weapons with some coordination. Some folks short man and plant twoboxes in the raid for mats as well. TR'ing resets ransack timer.

Not everyone who has multiple tier 3 weapons is an immediate duper. You get 1/3 of the phlogistons on your 20th lists as well, and bypasses are easy to come by. The 90 phlogistons you need to make say, 3 weapons, is really not that big of a deal in THREE WEEKS time.

Yes I see that it's possible, for an already pro quad + boxer or someone that has their whole party passing them mats every run I can see how it's possible. For me, and even more so for others I know (none of them dual boxing but all trading amongst eachother) who are running these raids everyday multiple times, ransack on 4 toons plus every week and still they are nowhere close to teir 3. But yes I see that it is possible. I dont think epic TRing works as ransack reset does it?

[Eth]

I didn't take phlogistons from my 20th and chose to craft two tier 2 weapons first.
After 52 runs I'm short of 500 ingots and 12 shadow phlogs of my first tier 3.

So if I hadn't craft the 2nd tier 2 and took the phlogiston from my end reward list I would only be 100 ingots + 2 phlogistons short.

It's definatly possible to have at least one Tier 3 per character by now.

Sure there are people that duped their mats, but let's not suspect people without proof.

[Knight_slayer]

Sure there are people that duped their mats, but let's not suspect people without proof.

Yes agreed. I shouldn't have brought that up. Just all this other stuff going on got me on edge.

[keveniaftw]

i'm still investigating the run in question.

Wipe every single completion and start clean with video proof, that's the only way you're sure people aren't cheating. There are too many ways to cheat here, and really the only proof is a vid

[Eth]

Another thing to think about...
Currently it sounds to me like most people think if the crippling flames bug gets fixed, everything is fine.

Make no illusions. This game has been full of bugs, is full of bugs and will continue to be full of bugs. Some of them will heavily influence speed runs.
Just think back a bit of the energy critical bug, which trivialized everything for casters.

So for long term I still think video proof is always the way to go. It's not like this will be the last major bug we've seen.

Furthermore this 'hiding tactics' is something I don't like either. Personally I would disqualify every run that uses things like perch spots too.

[Takllin]

Another thing to think about...
Currently it sounds to me like most people think if the crippling flames bug gets fixed, everything is fine.

Make no illusions. This game has been full of bugs, is full of bugs and will continue to be full of bugs. Some of them will heavily influence speed runs.
Just think back a bit of the energy critical bug, which trivialized everything for casters.

So for long term I still think video proof is always the way to go. It's not like this will be the last major bug we've seen.

Furthermore this 'hiding tactics' is something I don't like either. Personally I would disqualify every run that uses things like perch spots too.

I agree with some of this, but not the video part. When you start a speed discussion thread, there has to be some basis of trust among players that you are using legitimate tactics/gear/etc to complete these. If someone proves otherwise, take theirs away, but the rest of us should not have to pay for one persons poor decisions.

[Grimlock]

Wipe every single completion and start clean with video proof, that's the only way you're sure people aren't cheating. There are too many ways to cheat here, and really the only proof is a vid

Cheating? In an achievement thread? Lol.

You mean some neckbeard with nothing better to do photoshops screen shots of a "completion" in order to get recognition in a DDO forum? Now that's effing hilarious.

[Cardtrick]

Cheating? In an achievement thread? Lol.

You mean some neckbeard with nothing better to do photoshops screen shots of a "completion" in order to get recognition in a DDO forum? Now that's effing hilarious.

If you read the thread, it would be obvious that that's not what's being discussed. The conversation is about the use of bugs/exploits to trivialize content.

(Although the specific thing most people are talking about here is only probably a bug -- based on the item description, there's a slim chance it was a deliberate but poorly thought out decision by the developers.)

[Talonaise]

Hmm,

What I find interesting in this and the sister thread is how quickly it has become a witch hunt. The fact of the matter is, video - no video, you will never be 100% sure someone isn't cheating.

This was supposed to be for fun. I note that the ones that seem to whine the most are the ones who have nothing posted in the solo runs. I wonder if it just simply makes them feel better to think that those people are not that much better than them and they obviously cheated. Well, whatever lets you sleep at night.

Sadly, I think at this point the best thing to do is close it down. It was fun while it lasted.

[ishr]

Sadly, I think at this point the best thing to do is close it down. It was fun while it lasted.

I will not be taking this action any time soon. Although some sections are on temporary hold, I intend to keep the remainder running for the time-being. The events of the last 2 days, while discouraging, have generated a lot of discussion which has identified many shortcomings of the previous system and has great potential to improve the thread moving forward. The thread exists for those who are interested in it, nothing more. If it's not your cup of tea I respect that, but that doesn't necessarily hold for everyone else.

[Grizzt14]

Facts are this: Exploits exist in this game and a video from a sole individual in a run (that is not a solo run) only proves that 1/6, 1/12, etc isn't cheating, assuming you even know what exploits are going on in the first place. There are exploits in this game that will not show up on a single video.

The only sure-fire way to insure runs are legit is a video from every person, on every run. Period. It is how online competitions run and I've personally had to do it in the past, anyone not submitting or not able to submit video risked forfeiting the game. It is the sole method that you get 100% visibility on what is going on from each person's perspective throughout the entire run/match/raid/etc. While effective, this method only works with a video from everyone and will make running groups for these runs a PITA. I, and I know of others as well, will not be willing to deal with this for each run we do and insuring that everyone in a run can record with video. It's excessive for a game like DDO and I wouldn't be surprised if this method ran this thread into the ground, despite it's effectiveness. (Not to mention, someone will need to watch every video from each person for every submission. An example run, our 59 min Temple run with 12 people comes to just under 12 hours of footage.)

Or...

We go back to submitting screenshots as the only required evidence of completion and willing individuals putting in videos if they choose. It's not bullet-proof, but prior to a sole incident quite recently, this method was acceptable. Runs are held on the honor system that players are completing with legitimate methods, runs found to contain exploits or non-WAI features are removed. Far simpler to manage, but pick a method and stick with it.

Hmm,

What I find interesting in this and the sister thread is how quickly it has become a witch hunt. The fact of the matter is, video - no video, you will never be 100% sure someone isn't cheating.

This was supposed to be for fun. I note that the ones that seem to whine the most are the ones who have nothing posted in the solo runs. I wonder if it just simply makes them feel better to think that those people are not that much better than them and they obviously cheated. Well, whatever lets you sleep at night.

Sadly, I think at this point the best thing to do is close it down. It was fun while it lasted.

Agree 100%, enough paranoia here to rival the Salem Witch Hunts.

[Shaatan]

Facts are this: Exploits exist in this game and a video from a sole individual in a run (that is not a solo run) only proves that 1/6, 1/12, etc isn't cheating, assuming you even know what exploits are going on in the first place. There are exploits in this game that will not show up on a single video.

The only sure-fire way to insure runs are legit is a video from every person, on every run. Period. It is how online competitions run and I've personally had to do it in the past, anyone not submitting or not able to submit video risked forfeiting the game. It is the sole method that you get 100% visibility on what is going on from each person's perspective throughout the entire run/match/raid/etc. While effective, this method only works with a video from everyone and will make running groups for these runs a PITA. I, and I know of others as well, will not be willing to deal with this for each run we do and insuring that everyone in a run can record with video. It's excessive for a game like DDO and I wouldn't be surprised if this method ran this thread into the ground, despite it's effectiveness. (Not to mention, someone will need to watch every video from each person for every submission. An example run, our 59 min Temple run with 12 people comes to just under 12 hours of footage.)

Or...

We go back to submitting screenshots as the only required evidence of completion and willing individuals putting in videos if they choose. It's not bullet-proof, but prior to a sole incident quite recently, this method was acceptable. Runs are held on the honor system that players are completing with legitimate methods, runs found to contain exploits or non-WAI features are removed. Far simpler to manage, but pick a method and stick with it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This is exactly what I was thinking.

[Aviya]

The only sure-fire way to insure runs are legit is a video from every person, on every run. Period.?*It is how online competitions run and I've personally had to do it in the past, anyone not submitting or not able to submit video risked forfeiting the game. It is the sole method that you get 100% visibility on what is going on from each person's perspective throughout the entire run/match/raid/etc. While effective, this method only works with a video from everyone and will make running groups for these runs a PITA. I, and I know of others as well, will not be willing to deal with this for each run we do and insuring that everyone in a run can record with video. It's excessive for a game like DDO and I wouldn't be surprised if this method ran this thread into the ground, despite it's effectiveness. (Not to mention, someone will need to watch every video from each person for every submission. An example run, our 59 min Temple run with 12 people comes to just under 12 hours of footage.)

Or...

We go back to submitting screenshots as the only required evidence of completion and willing individuals putting in videos if they choose. It's not bullet-proof, but prior to a sole incident quite recently, this method was acceptable. Runs are held on the honor system that players are completing with legitimate methods, runs found to contain exploits or non-WAI features are removed. Far simpler to manage, but pick a method and stick with it.

I think the best Way is something in the middle. Mandatory Video for solo runs (using Sestra idea of 1 month of time to submit it) and just 1 video (usually party leader) for group runs.
Solo runs will be bullet-proof, and I think group runs will be fine as well. Just think that if they want to cheat they have to be all willing to cover the cheaters in the group and they also risk to burn a 1 hour raid in case the video records by mistake something the could lead the community to suspect an exploit.
No serious guild would even think of cheating if they had to post even just one video of the whole raid.
At least not mine lol

1 month to post the video means you have plenty of time to get recognition before other competitors know how you did it and Can catch up