Is there a good Eldritch Knight Build yet?

[PaddyMaxson]

Hello! I saw Eldritch Knight and thought it looked cool but everyone seems a bit dismissive of it. I've my old main (a 3rd life Half Elf fighter) with his +20 heart of wood that I was interested in changing into an EK of some sort but I don't really want to waste the +20 heart of wood if I'll end up with a gimp.

[smeggy1384]

My current TR is going through a wizard life.. i've used a bit of the EK stuff but as of level 15 it is rather unimpressive. The attack suffers the same problem the necro tree SLAs have, metamagics cannot be used on it. Perhaps i am doing something wrong, after all i don't have much experience as a wizard, but i would expect more than 40-80 damage out of the EK tree special attack as a level 15 wizard. My spells sure can zap rooms of monsters for a lot more than that (but then my metamagics work on those).

You might want to try a level 7 vet character or use an iconic to build a level 15 wizard to give it a shot before using the heart of wood, your own experiences with it may vary from mine.

[Sianys]

I like to think that I've put it to some good use - I've splashed it with my Fighter (Kensei) and I like it. Using Eldritch Strike when you have Power Attack on, and dual-wielding khopeshes (among other goodies from feats and enhancements) makes for some nice damage. Tossing Mage Armor and Shield on supplements existing good AC, and I plan to take the 'proficiency' enhancements to make spellcasting easier. (I use spellcasting right now as more of a boost to defense, or extra abilities without needing an item: Nightshield, Protection from Evil, Grease, Feather Fall, that kind of thing. Not really using offensive spells.)

[fmalfeas]

I've taken an EK to epic, and run with him for a while. (I do not recommend EK for EE.)

EK has a few severe issues that I'm going to point out. Mind you, I'll assume pure, just because multiclass is too hard to predict for.

First - Still a wizard. This means low HP, horrid fort and reflex saves, and a pathetic BAB. The BAB can be countered with the Tenser's Toggle, but that cripples your DCs and casting rate, so it's a tradeoff.

Second - That low HP almost forces you to use the top-tier Shield enhancement that gives you all the regenerating temp hp. And that basically locks you into sword and board, and we're all familiar with the reasons why that's not really popular, right?

Third - Limited options for 'optimal' gear. Yes, you can get medium and light armor profeciency. Unfortunately, you're still a wizard, and spell power and spell crit still matter, so it's pretty much Shadowmail, Whisperchain, and Blue Dragon. Maybe green. Maybe.

Spellpower does not affect your imbues (though if memory serves, it does affect the two cleaves, so crank that force spellpower and crit!).

Mind you, I TR'd out of it. Maybe someday I'll give it another shot, but right now? Nope.

Oh, and the reason I always say wizard instead of sorc is that going after Wraithform and Death Aura is too valuable to pass up if you're going to be in the middle of the mobs with wizard HP and mediocre or bad AC. Sure, Displacement will rock the house until something pops True Seeing, or it's a dragon hitting you. Then you'll just pop.

[Arzoc]

Figured I'd chime in here, I'm no expert/meta player so YMMV but I like using EK. I've split it with PM for survival, use a 2 hander and run around smacking stuff and using a couple no save dps spells to help. Is it optimal? Heh, probably not but it's entertaining for right now, and I'd also say I highly doubt the viability at high levels of play

[ValariusK]

I frequently run with a wizard-12/ranger-6/monk-2 and with a wizard-12/ranger-6/rogue-2

Both of them are pretty tanky, although the monk-2 is significantly moreso. The idea is that you layer your defenses thickly enough that your death aura is sufficient to soak up most of the remaining damage that you take. That means going for a high AC, high dodge, blur, displacement, incorporeal, etc. Your wizard levels are really mostly for utilities and to fuel your aura, since you're walking around in permanent tensors anyway.

[unbongwah]

I've been experimenting with EK builds, my most recent being BF pal 14 / ftr 1 / wiz 5, though I've yet to make a "real" one. My main problem is I can't really figure out who benefits from focusing on EK:

• If you're making a melee DPS build, there are better T5 bonuses than perma-Tensers and +3% doublestrike.
• If you're making a S&B build, Stalwart / Sacred Defender have better synergies than EK.
• If you're making a caster DPS build, all you really gain is some Force spellpower.
• If you're making a ranged DPS build, you basically get bupkiss, unless ASF reduction or Imp MA/Shield are somehow useful.

Eldritch Strike / Tempest are okay if you've got decent spellpower; but the cooldowns are too long & the SP cost is too high to rely on them much, esp. since they can't be meta'ed like SLAs. Even WP Divine Vessel is better than EK Tempest: it costs fewer APs, uses zero SPs, and can proc every 25 secs; the only drawback is you can't control when it's unleashed, as it fires off automatically.

That said, it's not all bad. For 16-21 APs I can get both defensive (Imp Mage Armor / Shield, Arcane Barrier, +6 stacking elemental resists) and offensive (EK Strike, Spellsword, +4% doublestrike) buffs. I've been mulling some ideas for LRing one of my old Warforged builds into an EK tank: maybe something like wiz 12 / ftr 6 / pal 2?

[zeonardo]

Dwarf 18/2 Wizard Fighter (can splash deeper, but keep at least 12 wizard for wraith) Fury of The Wild

Max con + points, rest into int and some into str
Dwarf - Throw your weight around (con to damage)
Wraith form (incorporeal 25%, +20 balance, PM self healing)
Fighter - Axe Kensei

Dwarf have boosts to axes, fighter martial proficiencies also gives dwarves their exotic Dwarven Axes (hand-and-half weapon, so has glancing blows when used on 1 hand only)
Great axe for max damage, d-axe and board for turtling.

- Easy to get around 60 con buffed
- incorporeal + extended displacement + extended haste
- pajamas for dodge, but can net some good AC and PRR from heavy armor. I didn't like armor.

THF, ITHF, GTHF. e-PTHF (+ shield mastery if going turtle route)
Won't qualify for Overwhelming Critical.

decent DPS for EH (and not so bad on EE), survivability covered, more HP than most melees around.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

Both are up to lvl 25 and I'm getting a good feel for what they can handle. Both are in EK as primary enhancement tree with Tensers always on.

My favorite atm:
Bladeforged 15 wizard, 5 rogue Dexterity build focused on quarterstaff stick fighting and running in Legendary Dreadnaught,
Currently sitting at 735 HP, 1500+ SP, reconstruct hitting for ~400 non-crits.
This is like a leatherman's tool...very versatile and durable and good dps (not great, but good).
DPS at about 95 non-crit without action boost to dmg., and 300's on crit. ...then there's masters blitz :-)
Power Word Stun and Otto's Irresistible dance are wonderful!
Extended displace and all other buffing spells are very nice.
Ran Haunted Halls Epic Hard last night in a full party, and my rogue skills were up to par and able to handle everything in the quest...this made me very happy.

My other EK character:
HOrc 10 fighter, 7 wizard, 3 Rogue Strength build focused on Greataxe fighting and running in Legendary Dreadnaught.
Currently sitting at 800+ HP, 600+ SP, twisted Rejuvenation Cocoon for self healing which isn't good enough...I'm still needing a healer if I want to push out max dps.
This is like a DPS machine, very good dps but needing a supporting healer.
DPS at about 130's?(need to verify...haven't played much lately) non-crit without action boost to dmg., 500's to 1100's on crit. to non-held mobs...not sure why the fluctuation...will have to test and define...will update here when I do. ...and then there's masters blitz :-)
Extended displace and fire shield and all other buffing spells are nice.
Ran an HH Epic Hard a week ago while solo, and my rogue skills were not up to par and I was getting hit too hard to where I had to slow down the dps to catch up on healing...this made me not very happy. Extended bosses were undoable. Rogue skills may be fixable though...I spread-loaded my skill points and maxed UMD...will instead focus on Search and Disable Device and UMD, throw away spot and open lock...bells of opening for the win :-( and then for the sake of comedy, spotting traps with my face!

Hello! I saw Eldritch Knight and thought it looked cool but everyone seems a bit dismissive of it. I've my old main (a 3rd life Half Elf fighter) with his +20 heart of wood that I was interested in changing into an EK of some sort but I don't really want to waste the +20 heart of wood if I'll end up with a gimp.

[Failedlegend]

I've tested EK with both a Wiz18/Rogue and a Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 in Solo, Group and Raid situations and it's highly disappointing for both.

First off both the mana drain from spell sword and the Eldritch cleaves is astronomical especially If your trying to keep your normal buffs (displacement, tensor's, haste, death aura,etc.) so despite being one of the better parts of the tree its actually detrimental to use. Than of course there's the huge timers 15second and 30-60seconds vs. Cleave/Great Cleaves 5 seconds cooldown (which don't cost mana)

Every point spent in EK is a loss in non-force spellpower as it only get 0.5 per pt spent as opposed to 0.75 of Pale Master or the whopping 1.0 of Arch Mage and unlike PM has nothing worth the loss of spellpower.

Alot of the enhancements are incredibly expensive (getting the eldritch tempest down to 30 seconds costs SIX!!! AP)

The near requirement for shields limits builds incredibly for my Wiz/Fighter that's fine since he's built to use shields but otherwise it's extremely limiting not to mention it doesn't fit the lore of EKs or Spellswords t all who traditionally only wiled a single one handed weapon wit the off-hand either empty or wielding a caster implement stave, orb, tome,wand,spell,etc.)

4 of the cores are all the same ability until the capstone. That shouuld be a single ability that grants all 4 elements (only one active at a time of course)

EK pretty much amounts to the following...Tensor's toggle, minor Defensive bonuses, eldirtch strike/tempest, asf reduction, a feel cool shield related things. it really doesn't amount to much...the only thing worth anything that doesn't require a shield above tier 2 is the tensor's toggle and eldritch tempest the former only being a minor convenience the latter not worth it due to the long cooldown and huge AP & Mana cost.

This makes EK work way better as a splash...for example a Pally15/Fighter2/Wiz3 can supplement their melee DPS quite well with Eldritch strike and the first spell sword than pop improved mage armor/shield for boosted defenses.

[unbongwah]

This makes EK work way better as a splash...for example a Pally15/Fighter2/Wiz3 can supplement their melee DPS quite well with Eldritch strike and the first spell sword than pop improved mage armor/shield for boosted defenses.

I went BF pal 14 / ftr 1 / wiz 5: same # of feats (I wanted Quicken + Extend), but gain lvl 3 spells (Haste & Displacement). Plus it's a toss-up as to which PrE has worse T5s: KotC or EK.

[Failedlegend]

it's a toss-up as to which PrE has worse T5s: KotC or EK.

Lol can't argue there...as for your sugesstion honestyl I'll pulled those numbers out of think air...the point is that 90% of the good stuff from the PrE can be obtained with only 3 levels of wiz/sorc. Also imoprved mage armor and imoproved shield should NOT stack with armor/shields...it's an alternative.

[dunklezhan]

My horc fighter wizard ek/pm/kensai thf is doing very nicely at L24. 12wiz fig 8. However I +20lr'd into it from pure fighter at 20. I would imagine the build plan would make levelling awful as its statted like a fighter but the first 12 levels are all wizard

[Failedlegend]

My horc fighter wizard ek/pm/kensai thf is doing very nicely at L24. 12wiz fig 8. However I +20lr'd into it from pure fighter at 20. I would imagine the build plan would make levelling awful as its statted like a fighter but the first 12 levels are all wizard

Oh no one denies that Gishes work pretty good in the right hands, they always have...the thing is it has little to nothing to do with EK if anything EK is making you worse.

Also yes until you pick up at least Vamp form and death aura its a massive pain personally I mainline archmage and just act like a regular Wizard until than...this of course is depend amt on whether you dumped Int or not which imo kind of defeats the purpose.

[dunklezhan]

Oh no one denies that Gishes work pretty good in the right hands, they always have...the thing is it has little to nothing to do with EK if anything EK is making you worse.

Also yes until you pick up at least Vamp form and death aura its a massive pain personally I mainline archmage and just act like a regular Wizard until than...this of course is depend amt on whether you dumped Int or not which imo kind of defeats the purpose.

You grossly overestimate my competence. I don't think I could pull it off without the ek/pm combo. Pm is giving survivability even in off destinies, ek adds to that and add not insignificant other benefits. Spellblades being not un useful DPS, but the strike and t5aoe are worthless damage and cost way too many sp for what they do. The ap are spread thin though to make this work there is no wiggle room. I think a pally sorc bladeforged would work better due to the higher spell pool and saves and extra healing options in a pinch... but would have to give up some feats. Either way DPS will be middle tier at best. The benefits of the build are extreme survivability (compared to my usual standard. I am not skilled) vs normal mobs.

My point is the best build several actual skilled minds could come up with is medium DPS, and satisfactory survivability. That is FUN and flavoursome and I love it. But my eyes are open- ek is like druid bear form -it has real inherent problems currently.

[Fedora1]

My point is the best build several actual skilled minds could come up with is medium DPS, and satisfactory survivability. That is FUN and flavoursome and I love it.

Yes EK looked/sounded really fun, but as has been stated, in order to get to the T5 stuff it is costly, only to find out that EK Tempest is a hog for what it does.

I tried a couple times to build a melee focussed EK using a PDK Fighter/Paladin/Sorc 2/6/12. In the end it was pretty mediocre. Issues were with the AP (I really wanted the H-Amp and GH from PDK tree) and still trying for T5 (30+ AP) in the EK tree. The thinking behind this was:

1. Grab fighter for feats, haste, and extra action boosts (also avoid using a lesser heart).
2. Grab pally for some smites (to fill in cool down gaps), damage boost, and 4 LOH (helpful in heroics with decent CHA, figure with 6 Pally levels and 24 CHA = 144 hit points) and of course divine grace.
3. PDK (although human would also work) because I really like the racial tree.
4. Feats were plentiful, focussed on melee with THF (PA, Cleave, Great Cleave, THF, ITHF, GTHF), FOP, and later on grabbed Maximize.

Sorc spells were mostly buffs (invis, haste, blur, resists, displacement, rage, stoneskin) and the force missile spells for some ranged options.

I front loaded the fighter/pally a little for survivability in case of solo players, also because this toon is not designed as a sorc nuker, groups might be a little confused as to whether they got a sorc or a bard with them.

Starting stats were STR, CON and CHA at 16. Level ups into STR. Enhancements added to both CHA and STR.

Notable Enhancements:
Kensai Haste Boost (x3)
Kensai Extra Action Boost (x3)
KOC Damage Boost (x3)
SD Extra LOH (x3)
PDK Human Versatility: Damage Boost
PDK Action Surge STR (x3) and CHA (x3)
PDK Greater Heroism

Spent the most in EK tree, going all the way up to T5 for Tensors and Tempest - messed up though and could only grab Tempest x2, so would need to tweek the build because it's a big enough drain even if you get all three levels, let alone only two. I did not take any shield enhancements as this build is planned for a great axe only. I only took 3 cores, choosing shock and acid spellswords.

A great axe with a red augment slot for an impulse ruby would be nice with this build.

Hind sight - there are not enough AP's to get anything useful from the KoC tree (Divine Might and Divine Sacrifice specifically) as-is. Not sure what a good trade off would be. Maybe drop the 4 AP in EK Tempest and the 6 AP for extra action boosts? Still comes up a bit short though.

[unbongwah]

I'll pulled those numbers out of think air...the point is that 90% of the good stuff from the PrE can be obtained with only 3 levels of wiz/sorc. Also imoprved mage armor and imoproved shield should NOT stack with armor/shields...it's an alternative.

Like I said upthread, I think the most useful stuff in EK is the "low-hanging fruit" you get for the first 15-20 APs. My BF has Addy Body and uses 2H weapons, so Mage Armor & Shield provide AC & PRR bonuses which are semi-useful. I like Arcane Barrier - it's basically a free Radiant Forcefield which auto-procs when you drop below 50% HPs - and stacking elemental resists are welcome, though I wish you could get more than +6.

But then you get to tier-4 and it's basically a wasteland of meh: +STR, seeker bonuses, ASF reduction - booooring. Then you finally get to tier-5 - and yeah, perma-Tensers and +3% doublestrike ain't bad, but there are much better T5s out there for melees (Keen Edge being the obvious one). EK Tempest is kinda nifty, but too expensive (AP- and SP-wise) and too long CD to be truly useful.

Basically I would say EK can make a decent complementary PrE for a melee arcane, but you'll still be relying on other PrEs to do the "heavy lifting" of your build.

[Spoonwelder]

My experience with my EK was actually pretty goood....though the EK component wasn't critical to the build as much as the wizard lives but it did help on the AC/PRR front and the extra dps from the weapon imbue is nice as well as the warning bell of Arcane barrier to heal yourself is awesome.

My build was/is Wiz13, Rog5, Pally2 Bladeforged - dex focused quarterstaff user (Sireth rocks) - Saves are off the hook even without insightful reflexes(57/65/53 before GH). The key, IMO, with EK is to build like you are building a melee and your castings are for buffing only - I don't even waste SP on dots. With this build I went tier 5 in acrobat - the crit enhancements are too good to pass up vs. Tensers which I can self cast and Tempest (as others has said) is a SP draining trap.

I am at 28 and have AC over 80, dodge 20%ish depending ED/gear/twist I am running, PRR will be in the high 50s(with Improved Shield running) when I get one more comm to get planar conflux PRR bonus, perma displaced, blurred, incorp (treads). HP over 750(fully buffed), SP only 1100ish but I usually have some left at shrines (in EH I can run the whole quest in Blitz without hitting any shrines to break blitz - EE I need shrines for healing SP).

Can I do better DPS wise yes, but the self healing, self buffing, high saves, good defense etc....do make up for it alot versus some of my glass cannons that are all dps but no surviveability.

[Failedlegend]

imo if they changed the tensor's toggle to an ability that doubled the effectiveness of extend and made the spellcaster immune to dispel/anti-magic effects it would be far more worthwhile and probably give you enough extra sp to actually occasionally use your EK abilities.

That said I think the spellsword toggle should just lower your Max SP by X% when it's toggled on instead of using x per second (I'd say current but I can see that bugging out and taking 20% of your sp any time you go through a loading screen) and the SP Cost, AP Cost and cooldowns should all be reduced for eldritch strike and tempest

Next they should make Improved Shield/Mage Armor and Light/Medium Armor Prof into the same enhancements where you select one or the other...the spells should NOT work on an armored person.

Lastly merge the spellsword core into a single core ability that works like monk stances...you get all four but can only be in one at a time.

Add in Heavy Armor Prof as the Core 18.

There's more but this post is already long enough.

[unbongwah]

Next they should make Improved Shield/Mage Armor and Light/Medium Armor Prof into the same enhancements where you select one or the other...the spells should NOT work on an armored person.

I disagree: I think the fact they boost an armored toon is the only thing which makes the SLAs worthwhile. Plus ASF reduction is tied into the armor prof enhs, which is the real reason I even consider taking them.