Enough Magic Toasters - Lack of balance and lore perversion

[Oxarhamar]

Funny how people keep coming back to this argument.

How many times do I have to say it? I'm NOT talking about someone {anyone} learning to play a few tunes!

I'm talking about a BARD!

You know - That class in D&D that performs feats of magic just by playing his instrument, singing or whistling!

I'm talking about the best of the best!

And yes - even they have to train but the difference is that you will never be as good as they are no matter how much you train if you don't also have that Innate Ability!


Hendrix taught himself to play the guitar - This is a well known fact! You don't do this if you don't have that Innate ability inside you waiting to get out!
Mozart was a Child Prodigy!



The difference between classes like Bard, FavSoul, Sorceror, Bard
and classes like Fighter, Cleric, Wizard even in DDO.
is that the former require MORE than simple Learning - They Require that spark to be there in the first place!

Sorc and FvS are explicitly stated to be Innate and therefore should have been removed from Warforged right from the start.
With Bard it's more implicit in that Learning alone is simply not enough - The Talent must be there in the first place!


And who's to say that those of you who play Musical Instruments don't have that Innate talent and just needed it bringing to the fore?

Or do you subscribe to the Politically Correct nonsense that we're all born equal? {BTW this is a completely different premise to the Equality stated by Religions which is an Equality of Soul, An Equality in the Eyes of God and NOT an Equality of Talent or of Opportunity!}
Something that the Liberal Elite really should learn!

And I am talking about the actual bards of history those who passed down oral traditions of families thru song and peom long before written history. Not all Bards are goings to be at the level of Musical Genius may were just making an honest living.

, for some reason you think that Bards needed to be Mozart to inspire courage. On War boats in ancient Greece percussion instruments were used to keep the pace of the oarsmen. Trumpets and such were used as signals during battle.



Fife, Drum, and Bugle During the Revolutionary War

During the Revolutionary War, armies didn’t have radios to talk to each other with. Music was the main way for them to communicate over long distances. It is widely recognized that the use of the fife and drum came from the armies of Switzerland, hundreds of years before America was discovered by Europeans. The fife was used because of its high pitched sound and the drum because of its low pitched sound. Both instruments can be heard from great distances and even through the sounds of a battlefield. Fifers and drummers would provide the music for all of the things that soldiers would need to do throughout the day. They would play tunes in the camp, on the battlefield, or for a march.

MusiciansMost of the musicians would have been boys that were too young to fight in the war but were following their fathers who were fighting. Other musicians could have been men who were too old to fight. This meant that males that were younger than 16 or older than 50 could serve as musicians in the army. To help the young musicians, Drum and Fife Majors would have been musically talented soldiers who instructed the young musicians.

On the battlefield, musicians had the responsibility of helping keep order in battle and make sure the soldiers functioned well as a unit. Drummers would play beatings telling the soldiers to turn right or left as well as to load and fire their muskets. There was a tune called Cease Fire that fifers and drummers would play to tell the soldiers to stop firing at the end of a battle while a tune called Parley was used to signal to the enemy that a surrender or peace talk was desired.

DrumIn the camp, fifers and drummers were used to help regulate the working day. Every task that needed to be carried out would be signaled by a fife and a drum. Tunes were used to tell the soldiers to wake up, eat meals, and perform camp chores. Music was provided for ceremonies that were used to start and end the working day. Whenever a command needed to be spread throughout the army, whether it be in the camp or on a battlefield, a fifer and drummer would play the tune, and other fifers and drummers would start playing the same tune, until the whole army knew what they needed to do.

For a march, tunes were played while armies marched through towns to show the people that the armies were in high spirits. During a long march, music could have been provided, but musicians would also just carry their instruments to save their energy and make sure that they did not alert the enemy that they were close by.

During the Revolutionary War, bugles were also used as method of communication. It was too difficult for a Soldier on horseback to play a fife because it required two hands. Soldiers found that a bugle could be played with one hand while using the other to ride the horse. Soldiers on horseback were called cavalry units. The bugle was also an instrument that was loud and could be heard clearly in battle.

[FranOhmsford]

God save the Queen!

Now where's my tinfoil?

This is a lighthearted joke post, that is all. (Part II)

Wow - A reference to the Falklands? Really?

I Think it's probably not safe to carry on this conversation - IBTL

[Socio]

Sigh, It is official. The near entirety of the forums require something to complain about on a weekly basis or they will shrivel up and die on the inside from actually playing the game and having a good time. Leave the toasters alone, they had a rough life of being used as war machines and just want to conform and be accepted as more then just a tool for war. That being said:



Put down your protest signs, Click the DDO Icon, Input your password and go play the game instead of spending all your time dictating how it should be played. I bet you will feel better.


Socio

[Oxarhamar]

Monk to me = a Franciscan or a Benedictine.
A Cistercian or a Dominican!

NOT A NINJA!
NOT Bruce Lee or David Carradine!

And even I feel that reducing classes to ONE weapon and ONE weapon only is RIDICULOUS!

LotRO does that however - Maybe you'd like it over there?

Here is some 3.5 basics on Monks

The average monk will spend most of his life sitting in contemplation in a monastery. Sometimes these monks are selected for special training from the grandmaster: continuing the achievements of their lives. Other times, though, people are selected into rigorous training programs of the warrior monk. Thereafter the warrior monk travels the world on missions from his order, or in some instances he defends the weak; he may view it as the spiritual side of his calling. Occasionally a warrior monk is assigned to assist or provide protection for his orders more contemplative brethren as they perform duties vital to the order. Other common duties warrior monks perform are callings from their order to either guard treasure or to escort important artifacts as they are being transferred from outreaching abbeys to their main centers and places of meditation. In either of these cases, depending upon the importance the order places upon the success, they might send warrior monks of their order as additional support to defend the convey. The warrior monk is proud of his role and enjoys accompanying and protecting his more contemplative brothers, as well as meeting people throughout his travels. While warrior monks are particularly good at combat, they do not revel in it: instead viewing their abilities as being a necessary requirement for the protection of others.

In the case of evil warrior monks these monks normally are enforcer type individuals that will spend much of their lives enforcing the will of their particular deity. Unlike other warrior monks, evil warrior monks enjoy combat. They view combat as a viable first option in encounters as long as it does not impact their overall mission (trying to bring someone back alive could involve combat, but when following someone getting into fights can make yourself notable to them). Also, evil warrior monks can make very skilled assassins. When using subterfuge, they can get close to targets without weapons and inflict grievous wounds in short periods of time.


*This does support your view of the peaceful monks but, your completely ignoring the fact that the Monk class in D&D and DDO is the more highly training warrior monk

[FranOhmsford]

...

So basically you're saying that you believe any teenage boy with a Bugle in the Napoleonic Wars, The Crimea, Isandhlwana was a BARD?

Really?

Any slave banging a Drum on an Ancient Warship was a BARD?


Come on Now!

[FranOhmsford]

*This does support your view of the peaceful monks but, your completely ignoring the fact that the Monk class in D&D and DDO is the more highly training warrior monk

Not the D&D I played it wasn't!

Monk in fact was removed from AD&D when 2nd Ed. came out.

It did find it's way back in as a CLERIC kit {akin to a Prestige}.

Ninja btw was a Rogue type Class and nothing to do with Monk whatsoever!


DDO does indeed take it's basics from 3.5 but I don't have to agree with those basics!

In fact on many an occasion Turbine has basically taken one look at 3.5 and gone and made something completely different!


I'll never again play 3.5 PnP having tried it!
However
You couldn't tear me away from DDO!

[Knobull]

Bagpipes rule when it comes to battlefield music. Just hearing them makes me want to swing a greatsword and lop off some heads, like a true Celtic barbarian.

[Oxarhamar]

So basically you're saying that you believe any teenage boy with a Bugle in the Napoleonic Wars, The Crimea, Isandhlwana was a BARD?

Really?

Any slave banging a Drum on an Ancient Warship was a BARD?


Come on Now!

These are just some examples of actual music in warfare.

Barbs however are completely different are were basically oral story tellers which some sang, some recited poems, some played music. if you want to be true to historical bards

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, not answering to lore stuff anymore since it disrupts the discussion. I am aware I brought it up, I should have never done it (its not about being right or wrong, as I said, it is about an understanding of the lore and coherence with it. WF WAS NOT thought as a magical race. That's it, there is no discussion. Can you think of some background story to make it one? Yes. Is it wrong? No. But that doesn't mean you are right and that I am wrong). As much as I like reading about your musical abilities, I didn't start the discussion with that in mind :P

Regarding balance, Valentine asks me why there is any balance issue at all.

Well, the spell reconstruct heals you for hundreds of HP. You can pick it up from very early on (and before there are other minor self healing spells). This, together with some innate resilience abilities of the WF race, helps you overcome one of the key weaknesses to keep arcane casters in check: resilience.

Now, I understand this has been around for a very long time. And that as someone points out, the hot issue is now about shiradis, archer combos and what not. But just because it was overlooked it doesn't mean it has to stay, right?

I haven't seen a single person come here and argue that it is not OP to have a self healing nuker. At most I get people to say that they are used to it.

[Oxarhamar]

Alright, not answering to lore stuff anymore since it disrupts the discussion. I am aware I brought it up, I should have never done it (its not about being right or wrong, as I said, it is about an understanding of the lore and coherence with it. WF WAS NOT thought as a magical race. That's it, there is no discussion. Can you think of some background story to make it one? Yes. Is it wrong? No. But that doesn't mean you are right and that I am wrong). As much as I like reading about your musical abilities, I didn't start the discussion with that in mind :P

Regarding balance, Valentine asks me why there is any balance issue at all.

Well, the spell reconstruct heals you for hundreds of HP. You can pick it up from very early on (and before there are other minor self healing spells). This, together with some innate resilience abilities of the WF race, helps you overcome one of the key weaknesses to keep arcane casters in check: resilience.

Now, I understand this has been around for a very long time. And that as someone points out, the hot issue is now about shiradis, archer combos and what not. But just because it was overlooked it doesn't mean it has to stay, right?

I haven't seen a single person come here and argue that it is not OP to have a self healing nuker. At most I get people to say that they are used to it.

Now your confusing WF and BF

[Ancient]

Well, the spell reconstruct heals you for hundreds of HP. You can pick it up from very early on (and before there are other minor self healing spells).

Please explain how you get reconstruct before level 11. Please also explain how you think level 1-10 healing issue is a game balance issue when cure serious pots cover that range just fine.

I haven't seen a single person come here and argue that it is not OP to have a self healing nuker. At most I get people to say that they are used to it.

It is not overpowered. Self-healing is not that big a distinction in this game, it isn't enough to do the hardest content without other defenses. Your "balance" issue is actually the same as your "lore" issue. There are plenty of MMOs where everyone has some sort of self-healing, the balance problem you have with DDO is you think it feels wrong/unfair. The reason you think it feels wrong/unfair is because it doesn't match your vision of the game/lore.

[PermaBanned]

Monk to me = a Franciscan or a Benedictine.
A Cistercian or a Dominican!

Is your passport in good shape? Take a little trip to China. Go visit the Shaolin. Tell them they aren't real monks. I dare you! Explain it vehemently, lots of shouting and exclamations like you do with us

I DARE YOU!

[enochiancub]

Is your passport in good shape? Take a little trip to China. Go visit the Shaolin. Tell them they aren't real monks. I dare you! Explain it vehemently, lots of shouting and exclamations like you do with us

I DARE YOU!

You took the words right out of my mouth.

A monk is a person devoted to religious asceticism.

Bloody hell that person makes me want to bang my head on a wall.

[potpurri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astIS...detailpage#t=8

[PermaBanned]

Bloody hell that person makes me want to bang my head on a wall.

It's your head that needs it

[Missing_Minds]

So basically you're saying that you believe any teenage boy with a Bugle in the Napoleonic Wars, The Crimea, Isandhlwana was a BARD?
Really?
Any slave banging a Drum on an Ancient Warship was a BARD?
Come on Now!

You went one end of the spectrum, he went the other. So guess what that means. The same spectrum, which means *gasp* Bards.. bards everywhere.

Seriously, stop trying to say a lvl 1 bard is NOT a bard, that only lvl 15+ bards are bards.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/11/05...pilot.trumpet/

[Uska]

Not the D&D I played it wasn't!

Monk in fact was removed from AD&D when 2nd Ed. came out.

It did find it's way back in as a CLERIC kit {akin to a Prestige}.

Ninja btw was a Rogue type Class and nothing to do with Monk whatsoever!


DDO does indeed take it's basics from 3.5 but I don't have to agree with those basics!

In fact on many an occasion Turbine has basically taken one look at 3.5 and gone and made something completely different!


I'll never again play 3.5 PnP having tried it!
However
You couldn't tear me away from DDO!

Yeah and we kept it from 1st edition ourselves when we played 2nd until 3rd came out and I was in a club with a lot of members and all groups kept the monk (they kept the assassin as well but I wasn't for that.)

[Gizeh]

This is one of my Pet Peeves with every version of D&D after AD&D 2nd Ed.

The Everything is available to Everyone PC argument won!


Warforged Sorceror is a contradiction in terms.
Warforged Favoured Soul and Warforged Bard are just as bad.
Warforged Ranger and Druid are so wrong it's unbelievable!
Warforged Barbarian? Really? First of all: Barbarian is a Race NOT a Class!
Secondly: How exactly does one "learn" how to Rage like a Berserker? This is an INNATE ability!
Thirdly and I know I'm basically repeating myself but it has to be said: You're BORN a Barbarian! You CANNOT learn to become one!

Classes that should be available to Warforged:

PALADIN {Lord of Blades, Silver Flame and Sov Host should all be available}
Fighter
Cleric {of the Lord of Blades obviously OR of the Silver Flame/Sov Host as that's who your creators worshipped!}
Rogue {Warforged Scout model - Mechanic only}
Artificer {Warforged Scout model - Battle Engineer only}
Wizard {Warforged Scout model - Archmage or Eldritch Knight NOT PM!}



P.S. Dwarven Wizards are an abomination!

First, I think going back to second edition class/race restrictions would be a bad idea. In the pnp group in which we play D&D we were quite happy with the changes that were brought about by 3E (and later 3.5), because the previous restrictions were arbitrary, with certain classes not being allowed for certain races without any reasons other than "there were no dwarf wizards in Lord of the Rings", arbitrary level caps (although they were way more lax than the ones in first edition AD&D), and with humans not being allowed to multiclass at all, again for no particular reason.

Bringing that kind of thing would severely restrict the choices in this game, which is all about flexible character building (most of my characters are single class, but I like having the option to play a dwarf sorceror monk druid if I want to).

Second, in D&D 3E/3.5 (and also AD&D 1st edition, where they first appeared) barbarians are a class, not a race. Dwarven berserkers are common in some settings, e.g. Warhammer FRP, and they also existed in the Complete Book of Dwarves (AD&D 2nd edition). Of course you could say it's a race that gains "racial levels", but I wouldn't recommend asking for it unless you want to go back to basic D&D, where halflings, elves and dwarves couldn't have any class levels at all.

Third, warforged bards already exist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RBSkq-_St8. They can even play some catchy British tunes!

[Uska]

Monk to me = a Franciscan or a Benedictine.
A Cistercian or a Dominican!

NOT A NINJA!
NOT Bruce Lee or David Carradine!

And even I feel that reducing classes to ONE weapon and ONE weapon only is RIDICULOUS!

LotRO does that however - Maybe you'd like it over there?

what?.

[BigErkyKid]

Please explain how you get reconstruct before level 11. Please also explain how you think level 1-10 healing issue is a game balance issue when cure serious pots cover that range just fine.

I never said you can. Please do not compare healing spells with pots. Its clearly NOT the same.

It is not overpowered. Self-healing is not that big a distinction in this game, it isn't enough to do the hardest content without other defenses. Your "balance" issue is actually the same as your "lore" issue. There are plenty of MMOs where everyone has some sort of self-healing, the balance problem you have with DDO is you think it feels wrong/unfair. The reason you think it feels wrong/unfair is because it doesn't match your vision of the game/lore.

Self healing is a huge plus. I would recommend you take a look at all the famous sorcerer builds out there. The ones people understand to be among the best one can get. How many are WF? Why do they state you should go WF? Cocoon is not as effective as a good reconstruct. And that's by end game.

Of course, self healing in itself is not enough to make a good build. But everything you may achieve with a fleshy you can get with a WF / BF. Plus the very efficient self healing. And the reference to other MMOs is at least odd. I am talking about the balance of DDO, in particular casters. Casters in D&D have traditionally been balanced through making them weaker / not being able to heal.