Saving DDO, The New Forgotten Realms Era.

[Uska]

Aren't Blackstaff (assuming you mean Khelben Arunsun), and Elimister, like the consorts of the Goddess of Magic? I mean, not to be rude, but, anyone who has a Goddess playing Sugar Momma is not indicative of what the general campaign world will be like on a general whole.

On a "Mortal" level, there is very little Magic being used in Forgotten Realms Setting vs How much Magic is presented in the Ebberon World of DDO.

Even in DDO show this stark comparison with the FR setting designed to appear to be a low-magic, more mundane villa in Comparison to the Ebberon "backwater town of Stormreach", even Korthos, an isolated fishing village has a more "Magic Ambient" feel to it, then the Epic Level Eveningstar village.

So no, FR is not High Magic, and not even remotely close to what Ebberon or DDO are at.

LOl FR is considered the highest maigic game of all time even more than ddo example see the above post about the 0 lvl with the giant strength belt. You cant really compare a MMO to a trash novel and pnp game world.

[Ungood]

LOl FR is considered the highest maigic game of all time even more than ddo example see the above post about the 0 lvl with the giant strength belt.

Missed that can you link the post please?

You cant really compare a MMO to a trash novel and pnp game world.

Seem rather silly then to build an MMO off "a trash novel and a Pnp game world" eh, but you are so right, I mean how dare anyone expect an MMO to even resemble what it was based on, the nerve of people!

[Uska]

Missed that can you link the post please?



Seem rather silly then to build an MMO off "a trash novel and a Pnp game world" eh, but you are so right, I mean how dare anyone expect an MMO to even resemble what it was based on, the nerve of people!

Its in this thread are you blind?

[Uska]

I believe the term you where looking for was mashed together and illogical. For most PnP D&D players the carefully created Multi verse honed through the decades is not something they enjoy seeing tossed out the window for the sake of trying to push a new magic punk setting on the game with 4E.

Eberoni remains the least interesting and least original setting ever made as all it does is steal creatures and concepts to mash together into an illogical amalgamation that has zero appeal to most dice chuckers.

Now Planescapes would of been a great setting, sigil in place of storm reach, still using doors and instances, but it would actually all make sense to walk through a door and find who knows what.

Wrong FR is the least interesting and least original piece of junk ever sadly it also has a huge following...........

I was never even mildly interested in planescape or spelljammer

[Ungood]

Its in this thread are you blind?

yes, apparently I am.. can you quote it please.

[blerkington]

Well, its not a pretty picture, sadly.

See this is how it will end. They will shove endless means upon new players to "rush to the end game" where they think the highest population of their players are, or believe that is where all the "good fun stuff is" and thus the new players will find their social nitch and stay around and spend money.

In an effort to make this happen, they will dump all manner of gear, items, fast exp, and whatever they can think of to expedite the process, while also doing what they think will prep the new player to be outfitted for the upcoming content, easy to get epic gear, challenge gear, revamped loot gen to be on par to named raid items, etc, so that when a new player gets to cap, they can keep up.

This will fail. What will happen, is the vets will get quickly burned out, they will become jaded to go after the raid items, after all their previous effort has been casually invalidated, they will make efforts to set themselves apart, to show they have been around for a long time, and they have gear, items, prestige to prove it. But Turbine will make efforts to level the playing field, so all that gear is either invalidated or matched by newer gear that is much easier to acquire.

In the end, power gamers will get burned out of this cycle of putting in effort to be first place, only to be slapped in the face by it in favor of the new players need to keep up too, process, so they will move on to a game where they expect to feel appreciated.

New players won't get why the resentment, but that does not mean they will be oblivious of it, and on top of that, they will be put into content they often enough will not have the skills to keep up with, and they will become overwhelmed and move on to a game where they can be a part of the social aspect and not the cause of major butt-hurt.

Then you have the Fan-Boi's, these holds out will do everything they can to save the game, try to be helpful, but more often then not, their battle will be a losing one, and if they are lucky, they will maintain a game that will remain fun for them to play, even if it is becomes a total back burner style of game.

But I could totally wrong.

Hi,

Thanks for the very detailed reply. Most of this has already happened, hasn't it?

[MyraScott]

This would not save DDO.

+1

[Ungood]

+1

Not to be rude, but, you must be easily impressed. he offers no explanation, no ideas of his own, adds nothing to the discussion but curt negativity and you think that's worth a +1.

So, do you have a better idea?

I don't think you do, because, you know I have read quite a few ideas on this forums, but I'll give you a +1 if you can lay down one I have not heard before, that makes some kind of reasonable sense.

[Memnir]

he offers no explanation, no ideas of his own, adds nothing to the discussion but curt negativity

I didn't need to. Some ideas are self-evident in why they are flawed - and this happens to be one of those. So, no explanation or elaboration needed.


I also wasn't curtly negative, I simply disagreed with you. There exists a tangible difference between those two states. If you could spare a moment to stop being pompous and condescending to anyone who does that, it might help a bit. But, I'm not judging. You just keep on being you, complete with attitude and idea threads like these, if that's what makes you happy.

[MyraScott]

Not to be rude,

Means-> I'm going to be rude now, because you hurt my feelings.

but, you must be easily impressed.

Quite an amazing inference to make, simply because I agree with someone who doesn't agree with you.

he offers no explanation, no ideas of his own, adds nothing to the discussion but curt negativity and you think that's worth a +1.

So, don't give him one, if that's your criteria for a +1. That's not my criteria.

So, do you have a better idea?

I'm not allowed to disagree with your assessment that you can save DDO unless I have a better idea? LOL.

I don't think you do, because, you know I have read quite a few ideas on this forums, but I'll give you a +1 if you can lay down one I have not heard before, that makes some kind of reasonable sense.

I'm not seeking +1,'s but thanks for the offer.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

DDO needs saving?

[Ungood]

I didn't need to. Some ideas are self-evident in why they are flawed - and this happens to be one of those. So, no explanation or elaboration needed.

I also wasn't curtly negative, I simply disagreed with you. There exists a tangible difference between those two states. If you could spare a moment to stop being pompous and condescending to anyone who does that, it might help a bit. But, I'm not judging. You just keep on being you, complete with attitude and idea threads like these, if that's what makes you happy.

I'll spare you this Mem, something to think about, If someone takes the time to post an idea, no matter how bad it may seem or be and regardless of who they are, it's obviously not self-evident as to why it is a bad idea to them, if it was, they would not have posted it to start with, and not to be too pandering, but, that little factoid should have been self-evident, but, you know, here we are.

Now if I was as much a jerk as you are currently trying to make me out to be, I would say something like: "In the future Mem, just stick to funny pictures"

But I am not going to say that, I am going to say "I hope that you grow out of whatever hole you have let yourself fall into, you used to be insightful"

[Ungood]

Quite an amazing inference to make, simply because I agree with someone who doesn't agree with you.

LOL, That's funny, I understand you don't know me, but, if you did, you would know how silly that sounds, as I have given many positive reps to people who have disagreed with me and even changed my views on things because my opponents presented viable sound counter points and backed up what they said with logic, reason, and facts.

As for your criteria, well that is exactly what I called into question, hence my observation that you are easily impressed.

Anyway, you have made it clear that will not be adding anything to this discussion, neither in the forum of a usable critique or a counter suggestion, and I respect that, I simply wanted to address a few of your flawed presumptions about me and what I said.

Have a good day.

[Ungood]

DDO needs saving?

Well, this is a great question, assuming that it is not a rhetorical question.

I mean on one hand, we could say that a lot of what we see going on, is just the ebb and flow of a game and a company, staff comes and goes, log-ins peak and dip with the seasons, it's just the nature of the game.

We could even attribute it's state to the fact that it is an 8 year old game, and this is just the nature of things in the market, and DDO, as far as it's standing, is in fact doing quite well. It may be seeing better returns in then it has in years, and is in fact on a growth spurt, and that the lay-offs could have been nothing more then a legitimate reorganization to optimize productivity.

And if that is the case, then this idea is just one of countless others to get lost in the wind, and blow away, good or bad being meaningless attributes to apply to it as it is not needed and thus a worthless idea at it's inception.

[Ungood]

Hi,

Thanks for the very detailed reply. Most of this has already happened, hasn't it?

I think it is not so much in the past tense, more along the lines of transpiring, hence what prompted me to post my idea to start with.

[Cardoor]

... and people like you, who enjoy the Ebberon setting, can leave them be, they won't disrupt your game, and you won't disrupt theirs, everyone wins.

Hi Ungood,

Are you a fiendishly clever "Ungood" mastermind trying to get FR out of your life by conjuring images of a suffering newb and all the while pocketing all of the epic lvl quests into Ebberon (<--I am joking) OR (please see what I quoted above) do you truly believe that FR and Eberron should be split into two seperate games (both called DDO) to save DDO?

Here are the holes I see in the latter:

- DDO is complicated enough. Trying to explain the setting and magic lvl differences to a first timer in addition to all of the DnD/DDO rules would be even less newb friendly.

- Setting frustration. Someone will notice that they did not get the same loot just because they preferred FR. After complaining on the forum enough about it, we will be back to where we are now.

- Short term rudeness relief. Eventually both settings will have rude vets. Newbs are not always that nice to each other either.

- Increased Gear Gap. A player starting in FR for a year and then deciding that they want to try Eberron will be even further behind each day they played in FR.

- System differences. This is the big one. Trying to balance enhancements/spells/equipment across two games at two different levels will be more complicated than simple scaling and require a lot more dev time than just adjusting numbers proportionately.

I like that you want to address how to keep new players, and I agree with some of the predictions you have made, so I am on your side in those regards (I just do not agree with this particular solution).

Cardoor

[Memnir]

But I am not going to say that, I am going to say "I hope that you grow out of whatever hole you have let yourself fall into, you used to be insightful"

The level of passive-aggressiveness on display here is quite amazing.


Sorry you can't handle any kind of dissension in your lill' idea threads, Un. Seems like you're not quite prepared for it without feeling the need to lash out, even if it's in the aforementioned passive-aggressive backhanded insults.


It would be kinda funny, if it wasn't kinda sad.

[Ungood]

Hi Ungood,

Are you a fiendishly clever "Ungood" mastermind trying to get FR out of your life by conjuring images of a suffering newb and all the while pocketing all of the epic lvl quests into Ebberon (<--I am joking) OR (please see what I quoted above) do you truly believe that FR and Eberron should be split into two seperate games (both called DDO) to save DDO?

Sorry for the length of this, but hopefully this will show some insight.

A while back (Like Pre-MotuD) I got into a discussion about the quality of DDO, some saying that it was the best game ever, some saying that it was the worst, others saying that it was good could be better, and a few other views, like "It used to be good" "it's better now" and "It would be good if only" then mix in the fan-boi and Doom-Boi sides, and you can get a feel for how this went.

Anyway, I was in the camp that it DDO was just a "decent" game, it was "good but could be better" and, to prove my point, I went and started to read through many reviews on DDO. Everywhere I looked, DDO scored normally around a 7 out of 10. Which was enough for me to support my stand. But as I read the reviews there were some common reoccurring themes, or objections that were brought up.

A Common demerit for DDO among the actual reviewers was: the community.

Typically portrayed as elitist, bossy, and had a penchant to try and force people to play the way we wanted to them play by use of ridicule of "odd ball builds" that the community of DDO had no place for people who came here just wanting to play a game and have some fun. In fact, at least two that I remember, review sites directly said to not listen to other players, and not let the older players (One of them called us munchkins) gets you down.

Now, after MoutD, when the Exp Stones where a big thing, this was put out as a joke, a review site mentioned that the typically hostile and unwelcome DDO community was now looking for new players to be friends with so they could use this stone on you.

Well, while I did mention it back then and it sparked some discussion, I left it be, really, you can't change a community with a forum post. There were some good efforts, like a University guild to help inform new players, there was ideas for a mentor program, and I just read about a Blacksmith group that will provide new gear to players for free.

And while these are moves in the right direction, they won't change the community, they won't mean anything if a new player does not know about these resources, does not come to the forums, and instead opts to just play a game, and runs head first into our rather well recognized anti-welcoming community.

Of course, I will admit, at the time, I had no solutions either, because I realized that You can't change how other people act. You can, if you want, read some other posts on this forum that tag our community quite well, there is another "Saving DDO" topic on the main forum, where someone else brought up that we as a community are jerks. This sadly is also well recognized by pretty much everyone that has ever reviewed this game on live.

Another Common Demerit, but typically brought up in the comments section of the reviews by DnD fandom was: "Ebberon"

I know some of us love the Ebberon setting, while some of us could not care less, and some of us just love the fact that it is not Forgotten Realms. Personally, I am in the "Apathetic" camp, I had no idea what Ebberon was, and really, I just wanted to play a DnD game, and truth be told, had DDO been any other campaign world I would have been just as equally happy to try out a DnD MMO, I don't let setting be a part of my judgment on playing a game.

But some people really, really, hate Ebberon, and others just really really want to play Forgotten Realms, they enjoy the lore, the history, the fact that it is largest most developed campaign world, etc. This was a common Theme "If you could start in Forgotten Realms" "if you did not need to deal with Ebberon" etc.

And while things like "Game Mechanics" which got high marks for it's complexity and flexibility, "Art" which was "good for it's age", "Game play" which commonly scored high marks well. So the game itself, as a game, was often given high marks, or at least 8 out of 10, which is pretty good all things said and done.

So, I realized that DDO had to reoccurring demerits, and I say, demerits, because these counted against people wanting to play the game or stay with the game: An Unwelcome Community, and Ebberon.

Well, looking at that, it seemed simple enough, all I had to do was: separate the New players from the Cranky Old Vets long enough for them to get hooked on the game.

Now, just making Forgotten Realms Heroic from 1 - 20, would not have been enough, as I would wager many Vets would also like to Start in Forgotten Realms, if for nothing else, then a change of scenery.

I needed to come up with a way to, well, keep vets out, but, I could not just say "no vets" that's silly, and insulting, thus the goal was simply to make it unattractive to them. Hence the Low Loot. Which, given how many vets hate the idea, is a absolute guarantee it would do exactly what I intended.

People who have stayed with this game long enough are used to the loot level, and taking that away, takes away the appeal. But a new player would not know any better. In fact, people who came here from the fandom, who read the books and lore, would think to have a single named weapon by 10th,and the rest of your gear was non-magical, like Wulfgar, and would feel Powerful, if they lucked out and pulled a few extra magical stuff and were 'Geared to the gills' like Entreri would be "About right"

So, the low magic setting is in fact a functional aspect to keep older vets away from the newer players, who would commonly take the FR setting because that is what most of them know.

Also, allowing you to go one way, From Forgotten Realms to Ebberon, but not back again, It would keep that setting at a perpetual "new" like setting, because even as the game goes on, once players built up the skill, the knowledge of gearing, they would quickly move to Ebberon where the best gear and stuff was, where the Epic Levels were, where the "Power Players" reigned. So it would in a way keep Forgotten Realms.. well, a quite little place for new players to play long enough to get hooked.

Ebberon could continue to expand in power to keep the vets happy, with no affect on the new player area of the "Forgotten Realms Era" setting.

New Forgotten Realms Packs would include "FR Era" and their epic level "Ebberon" counterpart. Much like the old Heroic/Epic packs did.

All the existing content would be re-used, so they would not need to change anything other then the mobs that occupied the dungeons and the loot that dropped.

Here are the holes I see in the latter:

- DDO is complicated enough. Trying to explain the setting and magic lvl differences to a first timer in addition to all of the DnD/DDO rules would be even less newb friendly.

This is a good point.

It actually works for the idea tho. As I See it, someone who say was still in the FR Era, asking questions about build, would in fact be setting themselves up for an easy transfer over to Ebebron. They would get in contact with the friendly vets who want to help them, with a guild and gear waiting for them once they made the transition. Thus they would walk into the Ebbron hopefully with friends, gear, and backing to make the move to the "real game" and I am sure vets would call "Ebberon" the "real game" or some similar ilk, and the FR Era would get called some-kind of derogatory name like "noob-town". But that again, would work to keep the vets that have given this game a bad reputation out of it.

As for the disparity, it would only be in gear. Nothing else would change, so, build advice would still be for the most part, universal, as far as stats, skills, and abilities go at least.


- Setting frustration. Someone will notice that they did not get the same loot just because they preferred FR. After complaining on the forum enough about it, we will be back to where we are now.

The Idealist in me, says that the development team would explain that it was to keep it closer to the lore, IE: Brunor did not need a magic axe to kick butt and take names" but, the realist in understands that in a few years the FR Era, would get a loot re-vamp, and become just an alternate starting area, but, hopefully, while it was active, it would provide a staging area like the original F2P launch did, and with the sundering going on, this is the ideal time to get new players in, and keep them away from the vets, so they can get settled into the game.

- Short term rudeness relief. Eventually both settings will have rude vets. Newbs are not always that nice to each other either.

Yes and No. The idea is, by the time a players become a vet, that player will have moved to the Ebberon setting, that has epic levels, the best loot, the best raids, etc, etc, and will run among like minded power players unless they somehow like the low magic setting, which I really doubt many "vet" quality players will remain in FR era, asides from perhaps, people who enjoy PD, or Iron Man playing.

- Increased Gear Gap. A player starting in FR for a year and then deciding that they want to try Eberron will be even further behind each day they played in FR.

Sorta.

As I said, there would be 2 ways to make thransiton from FR era to Ebberon. First: TR, Second: Make the Epic Journey to the past.

If they TR into Ebberon:

They would get the Krothos gear, and their skill and game knowledge would carry them quite well, my First TR I had 500K plat, and no twink gear LOL. I was ill prepared to TR, but, I still did it. Now, after a few TR's, I normally only start with a twink weapon, (Festival icy burst dwarf axe of pure good, that I made during the second Risa ice games) and then don't even upgrade my gear save at Key levels, like 8th, 12, and 16th.

If they make the Epic Journey:

The Comm Gear, and Challenge Gear will close the game fairly fast, and they can get comms and challenge tokens playing on normal difficulty or over leveling the quests. It would take them some work to catch up, but, this was a choice they made to play the "real game" to go in the "Big Leagues" and that shows they are determined to pull ahead, which will set them up to fit into that environment better.

A player that wants to play the high stakes game will put in the time to move ahead, and will catch up, backed by the knowledge of how to make a build, play the game, understands their enhancements, feats, and abilities, is going to hit the Ebberon Era running, and will pull ahead quite well in the current game environment.

Players that don't want that, won't need to deal with it, they can casually enjoy their FR Era setting till their hearts desire and never feel as if they falling behind or need to catch up.

I understand this more an idealist 'general' view however, as I have no idea the actions of any single player.

- System differences. This is the big one. Trying to balance enhancements/spells/equipment across two games at two different levels will be more complicated than simple scaling and require a lot more dev time than just adjusting numbers proportionately.

Again Sorta.

Since the Quests would be either FR Era (Heroic Level) or Ebbron era (Epic Level) they would not need to balanced towards Heroic Level Ebbron Equipped Toons.

Spells, Enhancements, Abilities, Etc, would remain the same across the entire game, nothing would change in this front. The only counter to this, is in the FR setting, any scroll or component above level 3 would not be sold by vendors, and there would not be potion, or wand vendors. Not to mention that there would be no ship buffs, and of course, the low magic gear.

When you consider that people currently play PD/Ironman with rules akin to that already, this is not going to be a massive overhaul to the game, in fact, I think they would not even need to adjust anything in reality, it would make the "elite" somewhat difficult.

It would be just a change in Loot Drops and Vendors mostly.

Again, that is of course an idealist view on my part, I am sure there would be some behind the scenes things that would need to tweaked as the levels got higher. They could, if it got difficult, just have it so that FR caps at 15th level (Beyond the Rift Level) and they can opt to take the walk or TR at 15th.

There is room for many adjustments here.

I like that you want to address how to keep new players, and I agree with some of the predictions you have made, so I am on your side in those regards (I just do not agree with this particular solution).

Cardoor

You know, I'll admit, it's not the perfect solution, in fact, it may not even be a good solution, but it is a solution.

And when you consider "the sundering" or whatever the revamp to FR is called, is on the horizon, something should be done to address it and monopolize upon it, because there is this really great opportunity to pull in a lot of FR fans to this game setting up right in front of us, and it would be a shame to see such an moment go to waste.

[Ungood]

The level of passive-aggressiveness on display here is quite amazing.

LOL, and here I thought you knew me, there is no passive to my aggressive. Stick to the Pictures

[Memnir]

LOL, and here I thought you knew me, there is no passive to my aggressive. Stick to the Pictures

Deal.
As soon as you stop with the idea threads. They're both on the same level, content-wise.