Saving DDO, The New Forgotten Realms Era.

[Vanquishedfo]

2nd E boxxed realms set came with a premade adventure called shadow dale. one of the 0 lvl npcs in town is walking around with a magical belt, you have a guy who detects magic, that 0 lvl commoner is as good as dead. Guess what its a belt of stone giant strength.

From there a well played group can and will aquire a **** load of adamantine, and an entire group of freed from slavery dwarven smiths who with any kind of diplomancy will happily reward their saviors with entire gear kits of the stuff. Even my guys tent spikes where made of addy after that. Not to mention your now have a great underground base of operations to buff up and encourage the dwarves to maintain and defend, bring down some human allies from the dales, and boom time to start a under dark adventure making war upon the drow.

This all from a lvl 1-3 premade adventure to get you started in the realms.

[Vellrad]

So, in order to save game from sinistrous threat hanging in the air of the forums (most mentioned thing is lack of low lvl pugs) game must be split into two entirely different games.
Brilliant!

[Vanquishedfo]

Yes. I read the original post and wondered if he had some low-magic home-brew campaign that happened to have the same name. Because the official FR is a Monty Haul munchkin paradise.



And that. Eberron, at least, is an interesting & distinct setting.

I believe the term you where looking for was mashed together and illogical. For most PnP D&D players the carefully created Multi verse honed through the decades is not something they enjoy seeing tossed out the window for the sake of trying to push a new magic punk setting on the game with 4E.

Eberoni remains the least interesting and least original setting ever made as all it does is steal creatures and concepts to mash together into an illogical amalgamation that has zero appeal to most dice chuckers.

Now Planescapes would of been a great setting, sigil in place of storm reach, still using doors and instances, but it would actually all make sense to walk through a door and find who knows what.

[SirValentine]

And, again, in case you missed this the last few times I said it, I am a 4 year vet, if I wanted to play GIMPS and Permadeath, I would have already, that is not my cup of tea, which is why I thought of this idea, it would stop me, and thus, I figured it would stop you, thus seeing you and others like you having such issues with it, means it would do exactly what I hoped it would, and that is, keep all us vets out of it.

So...you don't like GIMPS and Permadeath...so you want to create an area dedicated to it?

It would give new players a new area, they could play in, without needing to compete against the several year old vets...
...not wanting to play a game where they have to run against someone who been playing forever...

If new players don't like "competing" "against" vets, perhaps they should just stay out of the PvP pit.

Most of the game is not competitive, and it's really easy to ignore the tiny portion that is.

[SirValentine]

I believe the term you where looking for was mashed together and illogical.

Well, I called FR a "Monty Haul munchkin paradise", but "mashed together and illogical" fits, too.

...trying to push a new magic punk setting on the game with 4E.

I wouldn't know anything about that. I was originally a 2nd Ed. AD&D player, and an enthusiastic convert to 3rd Ed when it came out. 4E, though, turned me off. Not anything due to setting though.

Eberoni remains the least interesting and least original setting ever made as all it does is steal creatures and concepts to mash together into an illogical amalgamation that has zero appeal to most dice chuckers.

I realize some people don't like it, but it's certainly pretty original. It's certainly NOT just-another-generic-fantasy-world. There's a reason it won over thousands of other campaigns. (And it has nothing to do with 4E, since Eberron came around years earlier.)

[Ungood]

This would not save DDO.

I will respectfully disagree.

From what I have been reading, this is exactly what DDO needs, as it provides key functions and features:

1. a Place for new players to learn the game without needing to compete against vets.

• many of the reports and reviews on DDO, the largest problems with the game that get mentioned time and time again, are the veteran players, typically presented to downright hostile to new players or players that may not know what they are doing. This is a core problem that DDO is struggling with on many levels, as they really can't afford to alienate their core vet players but at the same time they can't afford to keep their vets at the cost of new players, thus I would wager is strong motive behind why the game seems to be continually moving in a Solo-Friendly manner.
  
  • But solo-friendly is not the solution, because people play MMO's to be social to start with.
  • So lets be real, they are not making the solo-friendly for the vets, unless we are to assume that we are all such deplorable people that we can't even get along with each other.
  • So, the improvements in making the game "accessible" are most likely focused on getting new people to enjoy the game, the signs are pretty painfully obvious really from:
    
    • Iconics (Hey start at 15th and get into the Epic Game faster where Gear is not the have all end all)
    • Look at this Powerful Loot Gen, it screams, "hey look, new people! You don't need to run raids, put up with jerks, or be in the right guild of power gamers to have good stuff".
    
    
  • Menace of the Under Dark petty much leveled the gear score of DDO, with very easy to get Epic Level gear and items, so much so that new players, and casuals could rival and match the years that vets spent getting gear, in a matter of days if not hours.
  
  
• The writing on the wall is pretty obvious when you look at it, what they are trying to do, what their problems are, and how can they go about fixing them. But like most game companies, they are going in the wrong direction.
  
  • They are throwing out easy to get loot for everyone. The goal of course with this is to level the playing field, to allow the new player and the vet to be equally geared, however this always a bad idea for any older game, as this often tends to **** off vets, because it makes the years they spent getting gear worthless. But the fact they are doing it, sends a clear message as how desperate they are, and how big the problem is.
  • Ghostbane. Come on, they openly admitted this was to make the game more accessible to new players.
  
  
• The problem is, these solutions never worked for older games and they are not going to work for DDO either. All that will happen is:
  
  • vets get jaded (Oh look, that is exactly what happened)
  • vets feel as if they are not appreciated (again, check to this too)
  • vets get annoyed and opt to move on (Well, attrition is going to happen, right?)
  • New players still don't flock to the game (We are not seeing surges in new players)
  
  
• So what solves the Problem?
• Letting new players, play the game at their own speed, solves the problem.
  
  • less gear, that way it's easy for them to look at it, because it's infrequent, they take the time to study it, see how it stacks up to what they are currently using.
  • Less "junk" this means, less things to distract a player, the game is simpler, the loot is easy to keep track of, and up grades are few and far between, so players can pay attention to what they have.
  • Less Power, slow power curve, As odd as this may sound, but power jumps only help the people who already have the know-how to handle them.
    
    • For those that have taken breaks in the game, when I come back in 6 months, I TR, because I don't remember what I was doing with that toon, what my build was, or why it worked, I TR, to re-learn the game, from level 1, and start a new build. It helps to smooth the transition back into playing again, and after a few weeks, I can jump on my other epic toons with an idea of what I am doing again.
    
    
  • Less competition. Nothing discourages someone faster then realizing how bad their toon is, except perhaps how much time and effort it may take to un-suck their toon. For vets who have been playing for years, we don't see 100 quests runs as a big deal, but I remember my first Shroud, I was like, Wow, I have to do this.. HOW MANY TIMES? I recall getting my first signet stone, and thinking, I am never making more then one of these. Thankfully, when I joined, it was during the F2P migration, and there were a lot of other new players, people who were in the same boat as me, people who I could lean on for support, who understood and banded together and we pulled on.
    
    • That time is past us now, it's random new player, there is not a great network of support, because often times a new player runs into some jerk vet and BAM, they are made to feel as if they do not belong here at all.

So yes, memnir, I think this is exactly what DDO needs, a place for new players to be new players, to meet up, and build each other up, before venturing into the "Big Boy" game, as opposed to being thrown into the deep end of the pool like they are now.

[Seikojin]

Shmeh. This game was set in stone when it launched. The prevention of power creep would have had to been done then.

Personally, if spells were per rest instead of mana, we wouldn't have any of the issues we currently have. Development would have been drastically different than it currently has been. Unfortunately, the game uses mana, and we have crazy balance issues.

[Certon]

'Save' DDO? There is no saving it. Of the past three expansions, two have been terrible and one is marginal.

New game and item mechanics are virtually nonexistent. THIS is the bread and butter of an old game. A novel change to combat, or a revolutionary revamp to magic would also do wonders. Adding spells, prestige enhancements, new races, environmental immersion, and finishing the half-fixes to itemization. These would help heal the game.

But it's too late. They've pulled the plug. Now, they are just waiting to see how long it takes for the patient to die--

[unbongwah]

One of the common reoccurring problem that seems to get mentioned of many of the review sites for this game is that new players coming here are being made to feel worthless and inadequate by the vets who can blast through content leaving the new players in the dust, to be left sitting on the sidelines while someone else solo's the quest for them.

How is this different from every other MMO? I suppose TRing is unique to DDO, but twinking & zerging are time-honored traditions in all the MMOs I've played.

To address your various points:

• There's already a place for newbies to learn the ropes without vets hassling them, it's called "Korthos."
• DDO is one of the few MMOs out there which focuses almost exclusively on instanced content, which means players aren't competing for scarce resources. The usual problems with camping, kill-stealing, etc. which causes the "newbies vs vets" divide in other MMOs doesn't exist here.
• There is a place for low-magic settings, it's called "PnP," where a good DM can make such a scenario exciting. MMOs, OTOH, are primarily power-munchkin fantasies crossed with Skinner Boxes. DDO does things differently - and in a lot of ways better, IMHO - but it's still "just" an MMO.
• Content generation is expensive and Turbine just laid off a bunch of folks. Do you honestly think they're going to channel their limited resources into crafting a new lowbie area? Because I think the last time they released a quest pack below lvl 10 was Red Fens in U6 almost four years ago; they quite rightly realize there's more than enough lvl 1-10 content as it is. [Most of it could do with a good sprucing up, but that's another matter.]
• Or are you suggesting they adapt the existing FR content for lower levels? I don't have an objection to that idea, but again, I don't see that as being the best use of Turbine's limited resources.

DDO has a lot of shortcomings: the bugs, the poor balancing of mechanics which let a few FotM builds become so uber, the ridiculously repetitive nature of the HTR/ITR/ER Train (and the lack of any compelling reason to ride it apart from gamer OCD), the shrinking player base, the lousy matchmaking system (it's 2014, how is it we still don't have anything more sophisticated than the LFM panel?), etc. Your suggestions address exactly none of them, IMHO.

Well, you did have one fair point. You may be right about a lot of D&D vets being fonder of Forgotten Realms than Eberron, because sometimes nostalgia trumps originality or good taste.

[Ungood]

How is this different from every other MMO? I suppose TRing is unique to DDO, but twinking & zerging are time-honored traditions in all the MMOs I've played.

I am going to address your points, because you brought up some good ones.

DDO is very different then most other MMO's. First off, in the other MMO's I have played, Zerging is not something people do in PvE, it's almost only referred to in PvP (Server vs Server) settings where the other side is just going to face roll you by out numbering you 10 to 1. Hence the term "Zerg Rush", still holding what it originally meant.

DDO using Zerg to mean "Do a PvE Quest Fast", is not common at all, and I have not seen it used in any of the other MMO's I have played, while that is not impressive list of MMO's it is still several of the popular names like GWII, and Neverwinter.

Twinking, is very common, but in other MMO's it is also very limited, in the sense that some gear has level caps to it, and the best you can get, is not much better then the best a new player can get, it just costs you .01% of your resources as opposed to 75% of their resources.

Case in point: In GWII, at level 45, the best armor you can get is crafted, however, since it is crafted, the best armor a vet can have at 45 and the best armor a new player can get at 45 are the same, because often times vets craft the armor, use it and then when their toon makes 60th, they sell the armor on the Trade, and a new player buys it, all happy with their deal.

DDO is very different then that, in the fact that the best gear, it often hidden behind expansion packs, low drop rates, and often enough bound states.

Now we can see some of the moves by Turbine to expedite the "best" loot to the newer players.

Case in point:

The new BTCoE, should have been a give away that Turbine is trying to make the best loot open to new players, because vets will grind out what they want, and toss the "extra" away on the AH where a new player can get some top notch stuff dirt cheap.

Easy to get Epic Level Gear, Via: Coms, Challenges, and a totally revamped Loot Gen.

The problem with this, is it invalidates the effort vets put in to be.. well.. vets, and every game that does this, in the end, it is a sign that their base is stagnating, that new players simply don't want to spend months trying to get up to speed. Vets would call these people "entitled" but the truth is, Turbine calls them "Profit" and they need them to stay alive.


To address your various points:

• There's already a place for newbies to learn the ropes without vets hassling them, it's called "Korthos."

No, Krothos is a rudimentary introduction to the game, and by the time new players get out of Korthos, they are lucky if they have working knowledge of the games controls, and most of the UI panels, with an understanding of what most of the stats on their character sheet mean. This is a complex game, and people who have been playing for years forget that, just because at a glance you know everything, does not mean that someone new will have that down, and nor will they master it by the time they make 4th level, which takes what? 3 hours?

Now, I will admit, you must be an amazing player among amazing players to have mastered the game by 4th level, to the point that you were rocking so hard with that 28 point build you were able to put vets in their place, but, most mortal human players, are not so super amazing, and some times by the time they hit the harbor, they have very little idea of the diversity of loot, stats, and a slew of other things.

How many here capped their very first toon? I think there is a good chunk of players very first toon was a total gimp, and I would wager they did not discover that little fact till around 10th, when they started to a more in-depth understanding of the game.

So, no Korthos is NOT sufficient for new players to learn the game while not needing to deal with the vets and super players, not even close.

• DDO is one of the few MMOs out there which focuses almost exclusively on instanced content, which means players aren't competing for scarce resources. The usual problems with camping, kill-stealing, etc. which causes the "newbies vs vets" divide in other MMOs doesn't exist here.

This has nothing to do with resources and everything to do with the divide. From the reviews and reports about this game, the tale was pretty grim for new players to not group with or listen to the vets, as they are often times fun-killing jerks.

Not to be rude to anyone, I am sure some vets are great people, some vets I would bet are amazing people, friendly and polite, and great at helping out the newbs, but, that does not mean anything when a player tries to join a group, gets kicked for low HP, or has a vet join their group and solo's the quest before they fully zone in.

• Content generation is expensive and Turbine just laid off a bunch of folks. Do you honestly think they're going to channel their limited resources into crafting a new lowbie area? Because I think the last time they released a quest pack below lvl 10 was Red Fens in U6 almost four years ago; they quite rightly realize there's more than enough lvl 1-10 content as it is. [Most of it could do with a good sprucing up, but that's another matter.]

As I said above, a lot of content would be re-used, so this is not an issue, and not to be rude, I do not think you are in the person that knows what Turbine could delegate resources to, or what resources they have available, as such this is not a viable objection.

• Or are you suggesting they adapt the existing FR content for lower levels? I don't have an objection to that idea, but again, I don't see that as being the best use of Turbine's limited resources.

I think it would.

• DDO has a lot of shortcomings: the bugs, the poor balancing of mechanics which let a few FotM builds become so uber, the ridiculously repetitive nature of the HTR/ITR/ER Train (and the lack of any compelling reason to ride it apart from gamer OCD), the shrinking player base, the lousy matchmaking system (it's 2014, how is it we still don't have anything more sophisticated than the LFM panel?), etc. Your suggestions address exactly none of them, IMHO.

Actually, my suggestion specifically targets the shrinking player base. Thank you.

• Well, you did have one fair point. You may be right about a lot of D&D vets being fonder of Forgotten Realms than Eberron, because sometimes nostalgia trumps originality or good taste.

DnD is a Franchise, playing "Hipster" with a Franchise is great, unless you enjoy a pay check. What sells is what people like, and FR, is something people like. I could have just as easily suggested Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Dragonlace, or any other of the countless Campaign Worlds that exist for DnD, but that would have required them to make a whole new world, but revamping a alternate FR setting they can just copy past what they have already done, and thus advertise it to the fandom that enjoys it, and people like you, who enjoy the Ebberon setting, can leave them be, they won't disrupt your game, and you won't disrupt theirs, everyone wins.

[katz]

interesting statements about FR being "Monty Haul"...

neither Ungood nor i have played a FR setting game. our limited knowledge comes from stories, and DDO itself.

first point: how in the world is it that when we arrive in FR, we find the drow besetting this nowhere'sville town... and said town is actually HAVING TROUBLE with the drow... when the equipment is better than what we're bringing over with us from a high magic/ high magical tech type environment. maybe that's an artifact of "FR is Monty Haul", but it still seems odd that if they have such great gear lying around in piles, why are they even having an issue with the drow at all? and why in the world would they think some newb unknowns from a gear-inferior world/dimension/whatever-you-wanna-call-it would have a better chance of driving back the drow than their own champions.

secondly: (as i said, most of our limited knowledge comes from stories, so unfortunately i'm going to use Drizzt and company as an example now... ) take Drizzt. at 16th level he has (according to most sites) Icingdeath, which, given the BEST stats i could find for it online, would in DDO be a +3 keen frost silver/cold iron righteous scimitar of evil outsider bane with bonus effect of 10% fire absorption... and Twinkle, a +2 (or potentially +4, depending which site/ruleset you're going by) keen parrying scimitar. he has "bracers of the blinding strike" worn on his ankles, so basically he's wearing "boots of speed X" or something similar. he has +5 mithril chainmail of moderate fort. at some point Catti-brie gave him her bow, so he has a +3 keen longbow of force and unlimited silver arrows. and of course he had Guenhwyvar (figurine of wondrous power: onyx panther).

decent stuff. yes.

but compare that to a typical 16th level DDO player (including TRs). i run with scimitars and bows on my AA completionist project, so i'll use her as an example. at 16th, i have +6 to every stat, i have heavy fort, i have extra HP from false life and vitality items, i have armor that gives me +30 acid resist, hastes me when i get hit, and casts rage on me when i kill something. and lets me bypass 10% of my opponent's fort...i've got 30% striding and i shoot 10% faster, i've got rings that make me hit harder, and googles that help me find and disable traps, i've got items that make me dodge better, and items that make me concealed and/or incorporeal, i've got rings and necklaces and trinkets that restore my spell points, i've got a stack of bracelets that summon a friend to my side. not only do i have a figurine of wonderous power just like Drizzt's, i also have 2 quarterstaves - one that summons a scorpion or a spider, and one that summons a wolf... and i've got my choice of weapons... +3 2[w] icy burst flaming of smiting, +4 unholy axiomatic slicing bleed, +5 pure good thunderclap (and that's just my good scimitars), i have a +3 flaming burst bow that hits FAR harder than any normal bow (2[1d12]), conceals me, and blinds my opponent, and makes me fearless. i have a +5 bow made of devil-wrought evil steel that hits harder than a normal bow (1.5[w]) and does holy damage, electric damage, and ocasionally hits things with a lightning bolt strong enough to kill me outright if it hit me at that level. i have a +4 holy silver bow that makes undead weaker when i hit them with it and magically makes my arrows blunt so they'll hurt skeletons.
and i'm not gonna even mention the stacks and stacks and stacks of wands, potions, and scrolls i carry all the time.

comparatively speaking, Drizzt would be an ill-equipped gimp. even Jarlaxle with his overabundance of magic items of every kind would barely keep up.

[Vellrad]

interesting statements about FR being "Monty Haul"...

neither Ungood nor i have played a FR setting game. our limited knowledge comes from stories, and DDO itself.

first point: how in the world is it that when we arrive in FR, we find the drow besetting this nowhere'sville town... and said town is actually HAVING TROUBLE with the drow... when the equipment is better than what we're bringing over with us from a high magic/ high magical tech type environment. maybe that's an artifact of "FR is Monty Haul", but it still seems odd that if they have such great gear lying around in piles, why are they even having an issue with the drow at all? and why in the world would they think some newb unknowns from a gear-inferior world/dimension/whatever-you-wanna-call-it would have a better chance of driving back the drow than their own champions.

secondly: (as i said, most of our limited knowledge comes from stories, so unfortunately i'm going to use Drizzt and company as an example now... ) take Drizzt. at 16th level he has (according to most sites) Icingdeath, which, given the BEST stats i could find for it online, would in DDO be a +3 keen frost silver/cold iron righteous scimitar of evil outsider bane with bonus effect of 10% fire absorption... and Twinkle, a +2 (or potentially +4, depending which site/ruleset you're going by) keen parrying scimitar. he has "bracers of the blinding strike" worn on his ankles, so basically he's wearing "boots of speed X" or something similar. he has +5 mithril chainmail of moderate fort. at some point Catti-brie gave him her bow, so he has a +3 keen longbow of force and unlimited silver arrows. and of course he had Guenhwyvar (figurine of wondrous power: onyx panther).

decent stuff. yes.

but compare that to a typical 16th level DDO player (including TRs). i run with scimitars and bows on my AA completionist project, so i'll use her as an example. at 16th, i have +6 to every stat, i have heavy fort, i have extra HP from false life and vitality items, i have armor that gives me +30 acid resist, hastes me when i get hit, and casts rage on me when i kill something. and lets me bypass 10% of my opponent's fort...i've got 30% striding and i shoot 10% faster, i've got rings that make me hit harder, and googles that help me find and disable traps, i've got items that make me dodge better, and items that make me concealed and/or incorporeal, i've got rings and necklaces and trinkets that restore my spell points, i've got a stack of bracelets that summon a friend to my side. not only do i have a figurine of wonderous power just like Drizzt's, i also have 2 quarterstaves - one that summons a scorpion or a spider, and one that summons a wolf... and i've got my choice of weapons... +3 2[w] icy burst flaming of smiting, +4 unholy axiomatic slicing bleed, +5 pure good thunderclap (and that's just my good scimitars), i have a +3 flaming burst bow that hits FAR harder than any normal bow (2[1d12]), conceals me, and blinds my opponent, and makes me fearless. i have a +5 bow made of devil-wrought evil steel that hits harder than a normal bow (1.5[w]) and does holy damage, electric damage, and ocasionally hits things with a lightning bolt strong enough to kill me outright if it hit me at that level. i have a +4 holy silver bow that makes undead weaker when i hit them with it and magically makes my arrows blunt so they'll hurt skeletons.
and i'm not gonna even mention the stacks and stacks and stacks of wands, potions, and scrolls i carry all the time.

comparatively speaking, Drizzt would be an ill-equipped gimp. even Jarlaxle with his overabundance of magic items of every kind would barely keep up.

When compared with average lvl16 players in D&D Drizt got decent gear.

In DDO you will get flaming weapon at lvl1, in D&D at lvl 3 or 5 or even higher.

BTW, Lord of Blades is lvl14 NPC in Eberron.

[fmalfeas]

Yeah, DDO is massively Monty Haul compared to the campaign settings. Even the Forgotten Realms, which is a fairly high-magic setting, doesn't hold a candle to it. For example, here is the complete list of 'gear' for Manshoon as of the Epic Level Handbook - Wiz 23/Archmage 2

Staff of Power
Brooch of Shielding
Ring of Spell Storing
Ring of Wizardry IV
Black Robe of the Archmagi
Manshoon's Battle Gorget (Unique item - 75% fortification, +4 natural armor bonus, and the following spells, all at caster level 17 - Quickened lesser ironguard 1/day, featherfall 2/day, repulsion 1/day, lightning bolt 1/day)

This is the man who, with no divine backing whatsoever, just his own intelligence and raw power, has successfully attacked, and nearly destroyed Elminster (Chosen of Mystra, oldest living human, multiclasser beyond compare, and lover of the Mystra before Midnight got the job) at least once.

So, by comparison, one of our level 14s is likely much better equipped than the man who is one of the very most powerful beings on the face of Toril. (Yes, Halaster is stronger, and yes, Larloch is far, far, far, far stronger.)

In fact, the only NPC that I know of in all of the published D&D books that rivals a DDO character /is/ Larloch, who's entry includes the line 'has whatever magical items, including artifacts, he needs, either on his person, or very close by'.

[Ungood]

Ooops, missed that, you said D&D not DDO.

[Ungood]

When compared with average lvl16 players in D&D Drizt got decent gear.

But compared to the average DDO player, he's got gimp gear.

As for FR being Monty Haul, I have no idea where people get this idea, when Brunor Battlehammer, King of Mitheral Hall, does not even have a magical axe.

[Uska]

But compared to the average DDO player, he's got gimp gear.

As for FR being Monty Haul, I have no idea where people get this idea, when Brunor Battlehammer, King of Mitheral Hall, does not even have a magical axe.

Ok how about

1. Elminister
2. Blackstaff
3. the seven sisters
4. Cadderly
theres more but you get the idea FR is boring and hugely riddled with vastly overpowered NPCs now I am talking the setting and the novels not ddo but I started playing ddo because it wasn't the better they were forgotten realms

[blerkington]

Hi,

I can see why the OP might propose something like this but I'm not sure it's a (realistic) solution.

Maybe we should just stick with the "spiral of depravity" instead. I am more than a little curious about what is at the bottom of it.

Thanks.

[Ungood]

Hi,

I can see why the OP might propose something like this but I'm not sure it's a (realistic) solution.

Maybe we should just stick with the "spiral of depravity" instead. I am more than a little curious about what is at the bottom of it.

Thanks.

Well, its not a pretty picture, sadly.

See this is how it will end. They will shove endless means upon new players to "rush to the end game" where they think the highest population of their players are, or believe that is where all the "good fun stuff is" and thus the new players will find their social nitch and stay around and spend money.

In an effort to make this happen, they will dump all manner of gear, items, fast exp, and whatever they can think of to expedite the process, while also doing what they think will prep the new player to be outfitted for the upcoming content, easy to get epic gear, challenge gear, revamped loot gen to be on par to named raid items, etc, so that when a new player gets to cap, they can keep up.

This will fail. What will happen, is the vets will get quickly burned out, they will become jaded to go after the raid items, after all their previous effort has been casually invalidated, they will make efforts to set themselves apart, to show they have been around for a long time, and they have gear, items, prestige to prove it. But Turbine will make efforts to level the playing field, so all that gear is either invalidated or matched by newer gear that is much easier to acquire.

In the end, power gamers will get burned out of this cycle of putting in effort to be first place, only to be slapped in the face by it in favor of the new players need to keep up too, process, so they will move on to a game where they expect to feel appreciated.

New players won't get why the resentment, but that does not mean they will be oblivious of it, and on top of that, they will be put into content they often enough will not have the skills to keep up with, and they will become overwhelmed and move on to a game where they can be a part of the social aspect and not the cause of major butt-hurt.

Then you have the Fan-Boi's, these holds out will do everything they can to save the game, try to be helpful, but more often then not, their battle will be a losing one, and if they are lucky, they will maintain a game that will remain fun for them to play, even if it is becomes a total back burner style of game.

But I could totally wrong.

[Ungood]

Ok how about

1. Elminister
2. Blackstaff
3. the seven sisters
4. Cadderly
theres more but you get the idea FR is boring and hugely riddled with vastly overpowered NPCs now I am talking the setting and the novels not ddo but I started playing ddo because it wasn't the better they were forgotten realms

Aren't Blackstaff (assuming you mean Khelben Arunsun), and Elimister, like the consorts of the Goddess of Magic? I mean, not to be rude, but, anyone who has a Goddess playing Sugar Momma is not indicative of what the general campaign world will be like on a general whole.

On a "Mortal" level, there is very little Magic being used in Forgotten Realms Setting vs How much Magic is presented in the Ebberon World of DDO.

Even in DDO show this stark comparison with the FR setting designed to appear to be a low-magic, more mundane villa in Comparison to the Ebberon "backwater town of Stormreach", even Korthos, an isolated fishing village has a more "Magic Ambient" feel to it, then the Epic Level Eveningstar village.

So no, FR is not High Magic, and not even remotely close to what Ebberon or DDO are at.

[die]

The Sundering- R.A Salvatore, and 6 other Authors ? Are as we speak destroying Forgotten Realms, Here soon WOTC will have a new brush in which too paint .