Divine Sphere Epic Destiny Changes

[Wongar]

Should repost all the abilities descriptions for those that were not in on the initial passes on lamania to get a broader consensus on the changes along with showing any New things even without the sp costs or cooldowns for more informed decisions.

Costs per tier and minimums per level would be nice too.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ivine+Crusader

http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Crusader

The two do not necessarily agree but combined they give a good idea of what the original abilities descriptions were.

[bennyson]

Agreed! Its very useful for soloing AND party play, especially raids.

Blitz is highly useful for soloing.

Blitz, however, is non-party & raid friendly because in order to maintain it you have to always get the kills, always.

Also, Blitz is also especially weak in Raids because raid bosses don't die fast enough to get kills, in which case you could lose either a tick of Blitz or lose it completely.

[Lifespawn]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ivine+Crusader

http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Crusader

The two do not necessarily agree but combined they give a good idea of what the original abilities descriptions were.

oh I know where they are I just think it would be better if they posted everything in 1 thread if they want actual feedback people are most likely not going to go search for the info.

[Wongar]

Castigation looks like it will be an effective tool against non-bosses. The % decrease is a very nice dynamic in that it scales well with content. As currently written, Castigation by itself would take a mob down to about 10% health in a little over a minute and to 1% health in about a minute and a half.

Castigation for bosses on the other hand looks a bit low. The 1d6 bane damage/tstack caps out at about 87 per tick. That's less than 30 DPS – on a 20k – 400k boss that is almost meaningless.

Suggest that Boss Castigation be changed to use the same % dynamic that Non-boss does. It should be easy enough to change either the % per stack, max stacks, or both to have it give meaningful damage without being overpowered.

For example (assuming no other damage sources):
1% per tick per stack, 1 stack max – it would take 70 tics (3.5 minutes) to damage 50%, 230 ticks (11.5 minutes) to get to 10%

[Wongar]

Confront Any Foe as currently written is not very useful - 10d10 extra Light Damage at the cost of a turn does not make sense.

Suggest changing to something like:


Epic Sacrifice

Epic Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force and a turn attempt to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe.

Tier 1:
+1W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 1
Additional 5d6 light damage
Costs 10 hp, 3 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 30sec

Tier 2:
+2W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 2
Additional 10d6 light damage
Costs 15 hp, 6 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 20sec

Tier 3:
+3W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 3
Additional 15d6 light damage
Costs 20 hp, 10 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 10sec


Would be useful and tempting in DC and as a twist. Does not seem overpowered compared to other Tier 2 abilities like Momentum Swing (+5[W] damage, +[1/2/3] critical threat range, 3 to 60 sec cooldown, no cost)

[EllisDee37]

Several people have asked for crusader's DC checks to be based on either wisdom or charisma to support paladins and fvs. Pallies I understand, almost every paladin in the game will have higher charisma than wisdom. But why would a FVS have higher charisma than wisdom? FVS DCs are wisdom based.

We don't need DC to be another LD. We already have LD. If you want your Pally to do maximum DPS, then roll in a DPS ED, like LD or DC.

That's a perfect description of what the problem is, and why crusader needs to at least be competitive with blitz. What you're saying is that a dps paladin should pick LD over the divine dps destiny. When a dps divine is better off NOT using the dps divine destiny, that's a sign that your design is seriously flawed.




As described in the OP, a dps paladin in divine crusader will have half the dps of that same character in LD. That's untenable. None of the bells and whistles outside of the blitzing mechanic much matter, in no small part because LD also gets some nice bells and whistles in addition to blitz.

There is no way possible to justify a dps divine not DOUBLING their dps by staying in LD. There just isn't. Please, devs, give my dps paladin a reason to be a divine crusader. I don't mind being below a blitzer, I truly don't. But being half a blitzer is not going to work for me.

I don't understand why 20 stacks of 10% each, decaying at 30 seconds (but able to be maintained, like blitz) wouldn't work. It takes twice as long to charge up as blitz, gives just under 86% of the power of blitz, and as compensation for being slower and weaker you get double the grace period on losing stacks.

[EllisDee37]

Confront Any Foe as currently written is not very useful - 10d10 extra Light Damage at the cost of a turn does not make sense.

Suggest changing to something like:


Epic Sacrifice

Epic Sacrifice: Giving up some of your life force and a turn attempt to win the battle, you empower your next blow against your foe.

Tier 1:
+1W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 1
Additional 5d6 light damage
Costs 10 hp, 3 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 30sec

Tier 2:
+2W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 2
Additional 10d6 light damage
Costs 15 hp, 6 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 20sec

Tier 3:
+3W
Increases critical threat range and multiplier of weapon by 3
Additional 15d6 light damage
Costs 20 hp, 10 sp, 1 turn attempt
Cooldown 10sec


Would be useful and tempting in DC and as a twist. Does not seem overpowered compared to other Tier 2 abilities like Momentum Swing (+5[W] damage, +[1/2/3] critical threat range, 3 to 60 sec cooldown, no cost)

Costing a turn makes the abilities you suggest way underpowered compared to Momentum Swing, which I can (and do) spam constantly.

Using turns is as limiting (if not moreso) than adrenaline. At least adrenaline charges up on vorpals. Turns take over a minute to recharge if your turns even recharge at all.

[Wongar]

So please suggest something different - let the devs know what will make you happy and why.

[Wongar]

Costing a turn makes the abilities you suggest way underpowered compared to Momentum Swing, which I can (and do) spam constantly.

Using turns is as limiting (if not moreso) than adrenaline. At least adrenaline charges up on vorpals. Turns take over a minute to recharge if your turns even recharge at all.

Really hate that I can't edit...

Suggest something like dropping the HP/SP costs adding Epic Ameliorating strike ability to each tier: You and your nearby allies are healed by 1d3 per character level, and benefit from the effects of the Greator Restoration spell. (affected by your Positive Spell Power) I would love this for its utility - we are not trying to make it the same as anything else.

[PsychoBlonde]

Divine Wrath changes? Just as I was finding it to be at parity to Fury/LD dps-wise with the right build to quickly level this destiny... at the same time as you add the sun bolt to help build divine wrath???

Save thy rage. You are aware that it will no longer be necessary to cast TEN light spells to charge Divine Wrath, right? So you won't be stuck spamming ridiculously craptastic 100 point light spells in order to fire off your divine wrath. You'll be able to use that time (and the sp) to throw OTHER spells and still use Wrath right when it comes off cooldown. It'll probably be a net saving of sp and give you the time and inclination to use your blade barriers again.

The one thing I'd say about Divine Wrath is--please, please, PLEASE make it so that you can TARGET IT ON ALLIES OR YOURSELF. It heals allies. You should be able to target them with it instead of having to find some enemy that's standing nearby and hope that it doesn't move during the casting animation. The ability to use Quicken with Wrath would indeed be nice. Also, Judgment needs to work on a broader spectrum of enemies than just undead and evil outsiders if you're going to be making Divine Wrath have a longer cooldown. Evil enemies in general would be fine. Purity of essence should probably get moved to the US tree, to be honest, a smidge of healing amp is not worth spending three points on when you're an offensive caster divine. Also, why is healing power still in the EA tree? Change it to +30 negative and force spellpower plz. If this is supposed to be a largely *offensive tree*. Also consider adding an effect that goes off it that absorbs negative/force energy the way Embrace The Light absorbs positive energy. Command SLA is feeble unless the cooldown is like, 2 seconds. Greater Command would be much, much better. Holy Smite (or Chaos Hammer or Order's Wrath, your choice) would also be a nice one to put there instead.

---

I like the changes to Unyielding Sentinel, but I really wish you'd condense some of those stances. Vigor of Battle could stand to be replaced entirely with a new *passive* ability--it's a **** stance. If the plan is to make US more healing-based you could change Vigor of Battle to a stance that procs temp hp when you cast healing spells instead of one that procs temp hp when you attack--when you're healing intensively you're not in melee whacking things. That'd make Vigor the Healing stance, Stand Against the Tide would be the Threat/damage stance, and Unbreakable should be the Soak stance. Does Anoint Weapon require Stand Against the Tide still? Hardened should be a % AC bonus instead of a flat AC bonus.

I'd also possibly suggest making Ward Against Evil have some additional effect if you're in Unbreakable stance, such as a chance to have a big proc. Anoint Weapon could be similarly tied to Stand Against the Tide (having an additional benefit while you're in that stance) while Ward Against Evil is tied to Unbreakable--this would actually make some sense because these two are on the same level. You could then tie Strength of Vitality into Vigor of Battle (which, again, would TOTALLY MAKE SENSE) and have it also have some kind of additional effect when you're in Vigor of Battle stance. All three of these abilities need a little more oomph considering how high they are up the tree.

Please make Unyielding Sentinel a choice between Wis/Con instead of Con/Cha, or even all 3 stats.

---

Confront Any Foe just doesn't do enough damage. 10d10 is nothing even on an AOE attack. Making it an AOE would at least be interesting. The damage cap (1000) on Smite the Wicked needs to be much higher, like, around 4k, particularly since Improved and Greater disruption items exist now. Swapping Wrath and Celestial Bombardment makes sense to me, kinda, although I think you should make Celestial Bombardment a (1) rank ability instead of a (3) rank ability because otherwise it basically becomes mutually exclusive with Strike Down.

I think this latest round of changes shows some serious potential.

[EllisDee37]

Really hate that I can't edit...

Suggest something like dropping the HP/SP costs adding Epic Ameliorating strike ability to each tier: You and your nearby allies are healed by 1d3 per character level, and benefit from the effects of the Greator Restoration spell. (affected by your Positive Spell Power) I would love this for its utility - we are not trying to make it the same as anything else.

Debating Confront Any Foe is like rearranging deck chairs on the titanic. As long as crusader only gives dps melee half the dps of dreadnought, nothing else matters.

While I agree that Confront Any Foe is a waste of points that nobody should ever take, as long as the entire destiny is non-viable (which due to the way wrath is currently designed, it is) then none of the other fluff matters.

EDIT: I would also argue that paladins getting no doublestrike from the divine crusader doublestrike ability is a more pressing issue than the cruddy "uses turns" melee attacks, which should never under any circumstances be taken by anybody just by virtue of the fact that they cost turns to use.

[masterzzan]

ok so you changed some abilities in the unyielding tree. can you please tell us if you changed the ap cost of the abilities. and how much do the new ones cost? (the extra hp\rise SLA etc)
it is hard to figure out the build one might make from this. seem like you put a LOT of abilities on tier 5. and since you need 16 ap to unlock tier 5, that mean you have only 8 points for tier 5 and 6. id like to know how much the abilities would cost so i know what i can\cannot get.

im focusing on the ED that is important to me. but others might also be in the same confusion as me with the other ED.

[mikarddo]

We're happy to hear discussions on what Favored Souls need or are lacking, generally speaking, that we might at some point address. There haven't been strong indications that Favored Souls are particularly hard put upon compared to Clerics, for instance.

There is no particular goal to keep Favored Souls as being much stronger in Exalted Angel than other classes. This is not something we consider inherently valuable or making the game more fun. There are times it can be nice to know you are doing the definitely best thing, but we suspect most DDO players would rather prefer multiple interesting choices over an easy, obvious choice. Players who want to play Exalted Angel ideally have multiple classes that appeal for different reasons. Players with Favored Soul characters also ideally have multiple Epic Destinies that appeal for different reasons.

Varg, thank you for the reply - and a huge thank you to you and the other Devs that are currently providing outstanding communication with the playerbase. Its very much appreciated.

I certainly understand and respect the point you are making in the above so please allow me to adress the issue I see with FvS being "cheated" within your framework as well as suggest a solution that adds a little bit back to FvS.

Leap of Faith was for a long time a staple of the FvS which Clerics had no access to. Then came Exalted Angel and suddenly Clerics were handed Leap of Faith absolutely for free (its a core enhancement). That one hurt badly and is in my opinion a mistake. The slight reduction for FvS does not even begin to compensate. However, also in EA the FvS Archon suddenly proved to give FvS an advantage over Clerics wrt Divine Wrath. Not in such a way that clerics could not use DW but still quite a large advantage. I admit that this was probably also a mistake. So, you had two mistakes that somewhat cancelled each one out when it comes to the Clerics vs FvS score.

However, your suggestion now rights one of those wrongs in favor of Clerics without fixing the other wrong as well. Allow me therefore to suggest that you simply change Leap of Faith and Transcendanel Magic so the latter is moved to Core 5 and the former is moved to tier 5 in the tree at a 3 AP cost. That neatly solves the issue as far as I am concerned. Anyone that wants both enhancent is no better or no worse off - FvS are not given something they already have - and clerics (and others) now have a choice to buy the FvS ability at a cost or to decline it.


Wrt EA overall I think you should do the following:
1) Change Command to Soundburst SLA, 3 ranks, 24/18/12sp, 24/18/12s cd, all metas apply. Command is far, far too weak to be of any interest at epic levels while Soundburst would be interesting. You may or may not want to move this to a higher tier though to make twisting it more costly or even not possible. I dont think twisting would be an issue but merely that it needs to be considered.
2) Change Radiant Power to 1 rank, 1 ap that give all 30 spell power. Similarly chance Healing Power to 1 rank, 1 ap that give all 30 spell power. Finally, chance Endless Faith to be 1 rank, 2 ap that provide the full benefit. This makes taking Endless Faith while in EA actually viable rather than having Endless Faith be something thats only really taken as a twist. 4ap is reasonable, 9ap certainly is not.
3) Make Quicken, Maximize, Empower and Empower Healing work with Divine Wrath. Keep the cool down but up to sp cost to 50 sp (making the cooldown longer will be a huge nerf)
4) Change the places of Leap of Faith and Transcendanel Magic so Leap of Faith becomes a tier 5 ability while Transcendanel Magic becomes a core 5 ability. This avoids "giving" FvS something they already have without affecting other classes overall.
5) Make Sun Bolt 2ap, 6sp, 8s cd.
6) Make Shadow Upon You 2ap, 50sp, 30s cd AoE, Quicken applies. It will be much more fun as a costly, long cd AoE than something you are spamming non-stop.
7) Mass Cure Light Wounds is not a good idea. Whats needed is cheap single target healing as Renewal provided. If you found Renewal too good than add something thats still cheaper and similar in yield to Cocoon but worse than Renewal - but please dont add a costly, small group heal as thats not in tune with EA being an offensive caster theme - because offensive casters may be spot healers but they are not meant to be group healers and a mass heal indicates that. If you are dead set on keeping Mass Cure Light Wounds then it should be 3sp, 10sec cd, Quicken and Empower Healing apply.
8) Reconsider the Judgement line. If you can than draw some statistics on how many in EA actually have taken that line. My guess is that its a tiny percentage as it simply seems too restricted and lackluster. I offer no concrete suggestion unless you acknowledge the need for improvement.
9) Lower the duration on Reborn in Light from 2 mins to 1 min but give all the benefits even if you were not dead. Giving an epic moment that only truly shines if you died is not appealing to most players.
10) On the last day - enjoy the applause

[Lifespawn]

one ll note mass cure light should be affected by max,empower and empower healing for multipliers as well as heighten and quicken as per the spell itself but the sla should be no meta cost which while not as good as renewal if no max caster level and no meta cost could still be useful.

[Wongar]

Divine Crusader needs an Epic Moment and a change to Wrath of the Righteous to be competitive.

Hopefully a starting point for a discussion on adding a Divine Crusader Epic Moment and changes to Wrath of the Righteous:


Suggested new Wrath of the Righteous:

Wrath of the Righteous: Activate: Gain 100 stacks of Wrath. Wrath: +1 Spell Power, +1% Damage with all attacks, max stack 100. Wrath decays by 1 stack every 3 seconds. Whenever an enemy who has a stack of Purification is slain, you gain one stack of Wrath. 5 Minute cooldown


Epic Moment: Divine Avatar

Divine Avatar: Your god manifests on the battlefield through you. While imbued with the power of your god, you are a fearsome, fiery avatar of your gods will gaining several god-like abilities:
– You become the size of a giant and gain the benefits of that size
– Your aura lights the area around you
– You are wreathed in flames making you immune to fire damage and causing any creature striking you in melee to take 1d6 fire damage per character level
– When an enemy damages you with a spell, there is a 30% chance they will be knocked down.
– 10% chance any creature striking you in melee is shaken, 5% chance they are paralyzed with fear and helpless for 3 seconds
– You gain +4 divine bonus to all stats, abilities, and saves
– You become Displaced, gain 25prr and 25AC
– You gain +50% double strike, +50% offhand strike, +50% chance to shield bash, +20% haste – divine bonus - stacks with everything
– You gain the feats Holy Strike and Guardian Angel
– Consecration is active, has no spell point costs, and ticks are every 2 seconds instead of 3
– Your weapons and shields gain Greater Vorpal, Greater Disruption, and Metalline

While Divine Avatar is active, stacks of Wrath decay at 2 per second and Vorpal strikes with the main hand add 2 stacks in addition to stacks added by Wrath of the Righteous. Requires at least 50 stacks of wrath to toggle on, can be toggled off at any time, toggles off automatically and disables Consecration if wrath stacks reach 0.

[EllisDee37]

suggest that you simply change Leap of Faith and Transcendanel Magic so the latter is moved to Core 5 and the former is moved to tier 5 in the tree at a 3 AP cost. That neatly solves the issue as far as I am concerned. Anyone that wants both enhancent is no better or no worse off - FvS are not given something they already have - and clerics (and others) now have a choice to buy the FvS ability at a cost or to decline it.

Speaking as a cleric player, this would work for me. Another option would be to add aura to EA so that FVS could get aura, which is the cleric-only ability that "competed" with the FVS-only wings.

[EllisDee37]

Someone mentioned endless faith being too costly, which I think has some merit. 30 spell power on two elements for 6 AP is pretty pricey, after all.

How about change those abilities to 1 rank for full bonus (all three of them) but up the cost to 2 AP? That would change it from 9 AP to 6 AP.

[SirValentine]

Allow me therefore to suggest that you simply change Leap of Faith and Transcendanel Magic so the latter is moved to Core 5 and the former is moved to tier 5 in the tree at a 3 AP cost. That neatly solves the issue as far as I am concerned. Anyone that wants both enhancent is no better or no worse off - FvS are not given something they already have - and clerics (and others) now have a choice to buy the FvS ability at a cost or to decline it.

I don't really agree that there's a problem, but I don't object to this suggested change.

1) Change Command to Soundburst SLA, 3 ranks, 30/25/20 sp, 24/18/12s cd, all metas apply. Command is far, far too weak to be of any interest at epic levels while Soundburst would be interesting. Yu may or may not want to move this to a higher tier though to make twisting it more costly or even not possible.

Sound Burst is a more practical choice, being both AoE, and belonging to a school that divines often spec in.

STRONGLY disagree on your proposed costs. You realize as a normal spell, NOT an SLA, it's only 15 SP? Which other SLAs cost more than the base spell? DOUBLE the base spell? Most cost less, in some cases far less.

Who would want to twist it? Sorcs, who already have other Evoc spells (and SLAs!) that do similar? Druids, who already have PERSISTENT Evoc-based CC (which, rightfully, belongs on the Clr/FvS spell list, too)? I don't think twisting it is an big issue.

[bennyson]

Someone mentioned endless faith being too costly, which I think has some merit. 30 spell power on two elements for 6 AP is pretty pricey, after all.

How about change those abilities to 1 rank for full bonus (all three of them) but up the cost to 2 AP? That would change it from 9 AP to 6 AP.

I 100% agree with this type of change, 9 AP cost at tier one of EA is kinda disturbing if you ask me.

[bennyson]

Epic Moment: Divine Avatar
– You become the size of a giant and gain the benefits of that size

Wongar I don't think Divine characters need to become the size of giants like the Stormreaver. There are deities that are the size of humans and are still freaking powerful.

Although if this was actually added to a Epic Moment (disregarding Primal Avatar) we could have some REAL EPIC COLOSSAL BATTLES!