Divine Sphere Epic Destiny Changes

[Vargouille]

For example, Moved renewal to tier 3

Renewal was already tier 3. It's just in a different tree.

Not sure about the brace for impact change, current is 2 tiers, but it shows 3 on the diagram.

This is a typo, please ignore. No change to Brace for Impact.

[Wongar]

Paladins get no doublestrike from divine crusader. Speaking of which, what's the logic behind that one, devs? Is this another example of the devs' pally hate that caused divine might to not stack with insightful strength items?

I can't stress this enough: LD gives +250% damage on every swing for the entire quest.

Actually when you start to factor in things like Combat Brute, Improved Power Attack, Critical Damage, Advancing Blows, ... It actually give more than 250%.

Now if you could somehow measure the actual total DPS of build in Legendary Dreadnought and compare it to the same build in Divine Crusader I believe there would be some cases where each would win with the scenario I proposed. Key factor is how many mobs are in the Divine Crusader auras combined with how many mobs are hit with each Celestial Bombardment and how often Celestial Bombardment can be cast.

I will concede that in a 1 on 1 fight, the Dreadnought will always do more damage.

Consider however a large dense pack of mobs - the Dreadnought has to bring them down one at a time having very limited AOE enhancements (really only Lay Waste).

The Crusader on the other hand can call a Celestial Bombardment every 30 seconds doing 3d6 fire per character level (no save according to existing description) with a chance to knock down. At level 25 that is average 262 base damage * at least 130 spell power from destiny (100 form Wrath of the Righteous and 30 from Flames of Purity) equals about 600 average damage per mob per cast not considering criticals or other sources of fire spell power.

The Crusader get Castigation and Consecration damage for free as well every 3 seconds.

Consecration doing 1d6 damage per level and affected by fire spell power, again at level 25 using only the 130 fire power works out to be about 200 damage per tick per mob.

Castigation Non-bosses take damage equal to 1% of their health for each stack of Purification they have is much harder to figure put can be quite significant. Consider a 2500 hit point mob with 1 stack would be hit for 25hp, however the same 2500hp mob with 25 stacks would be hit for 625hp. Considering that stacks get added fairly easily this could end up being a significant amount of damage.

Now add in the 10% increase in party damage with a full party in the aura and the Crusader is contributing a good amount of DPS before even making an active attack. That 10% increase in party damage can be very significant. Consider a Crusader and a Dreadnought running together. Both can do max contribution becasue the Dreadnought can take all the kills and the Crusader 10% increase is an effective 25% increase to the Dreadnought base damage. So if the Dreadnought runs with a Crusader with full blitz the Dreadnought is effectively doing 275% base damage. Consider now what that 10% party increase does to bust damage and I think you will see that a Crusader can very effectively add to the party.

This brings up a couple more key points with Crusader that I really appreciate:

- Helps to make Defensive Oriented / Weapon and Shield (Paladin) builds useful
- Actually gets more powerful with each Character Level

Can't speak to the double strike point, but I do think there is a good bit of Paladin love in this destiny if you look for it. The destiny really favors the marathon runner over the sprinter so the Paladin - "I'll stand and fight as long as it takes to win because you can't kill me" mentality really pays off with the aura and spell damage - especially when fighting multiple mobs - in a party. The other melee destinies don't have this at all.

[EllisDee37]

Actually when you start to factor in things like Combat Brute, Improved Power Attack, Critical Damage, Advancing Blows, ... It actually give more than 250%.

Now if you could somehow measure the actual total DPS of build in Legendary Dreadnought and compare it to the same build in Divine Crusader I believe there would be some cases where each would win with the scenario I proposed. Key factor is how many mobs are in the Divine Crusader auras combined with how many mobs are hit with each Celestial Bombardment and how often Celestial Bombardment can be cast.

I will concede that in a 1 on 1 fight, the Dreadnought will always do more damage.

Consider however a large dense pack of mobs - the Dreadnought has to bring them down one at a time having very limited AOE enhancements (really only Lay Waste).

The Crusader on the other hand can call a Celestial Bombardment every 30 seconds doing 3d6 fire per character level (no save according to existing description) with a chance to knock down. At level 25 that is average 262 base damage * at least 130 spell power from destiny (100 form Wrath of the Righteous and 30 from Flames of Purity) equals about 600 average damage per mob per cast not considering criticals or other sources of fire spell power.

600 damage on every mob in a group once every 30 seconds is pretty poor compared to a a blitzer, who will be spamming both cleave and great cleave every 5 seconds. That's 12 AOE melee attacks during that same 30 seconds.

My dps paladin is about as gimp as gimp gets in terms of base damage dps, and he does 250 per swing base damage, non-crit (500 on crits) while blitzing. So that's 12x250 = 3000 damage on the group of mobs in that 30 seconds from cleaves alone, assuming no crits at all. This is even ignoring that I crit on a 15-20. (Soon to improve that from 15-20x2 to 13-20x3 when I switch to sireth next life.)

Nothing in this destiny will do anything remotely close to what blitz alone does.

[Sebastrd]

Please let us know what would make the choice an actual meaningful choice, or at least a different choice for different characters. The goal is to present additional choice, not reduce it. What are some possible costs and cooldowns should Divine Wrath, Reborn in Light, and Sunbolt have to be equally viable choices? Hopefully such numbers exist. (We of course mostly expect some ratios and reasoning why some numbers should be one thing in relation to another. If most players agree on the ratios we can try to make the absolute values work out.)

We do recognize that some particular builds or players will always want to go one way or another. Players who want more AoE healing are likely to keep using Divine Wrath, solo players may be more likely to use Reborn in Light, and pure Light DPS players will of course want Sun Bolt. This is fine and useful, even if some of these build types or player types are more popular right now. We want to support minority builds and players as well. Of course, minority builds and players can become popular when they get support. (Some players may remember at least one developer saying that we were trying to ensure ranged viability, not so many years ago when ranged was generally considered almost strictly inferior to melee or casting. Some might also mention being victims of our own success.)

Since they are all Tier 6 abilities, I suggest:

• Sunbolt: I recommend an SP cost of 3-6 SP, similar to Avenging Light, and a cooldown of 6 seconds, similar to the Searing Light SLA. Anything more and it just isn't worth it, especially considering the number of dangerous evasion mobs in epic levels.
• Divine Wrath: It really ought to be comparable in power to Energy Burst. I think the same spell point cost and cooldown coupled with similar damage split between healing/light damage is about right. Quicken is an absolute must to make it useful. Also, allow it to target self.
• Reborn in Light: Further reduce the cooldown to five minutes.

[Starla70]

Renewal was already tier 3. It's just in a different tree.


This is a typo, please ignore. No change to Brace for Impact.

Which is my point, none of the 4 clerics I have now will get to that tier 3 in the new group. So one of my favorite abilities is going to be worthless to me.

[sollor]

Taking Confront Any Foe out of the tree levees this tree with no atks.
Threat Madagascan does not count. (Intolerant Blow)

make something to do with the Deity Feats may make them more point full.

[Antheal]

So no healing-based destiny?

Guess I'll have to start referring to it as "Beacon of Nope".

[Wongar]

600 damage on every mob in a group once every 30 seconds is pretty poor compared to a a blitzer, who will be spamming both cleave and great cleave every 5 seconds. That's 12 AOE melee attacks during that same 30 seconds.

My dps paladin is about as gimp as gimp gets in terms of base damage dps, and he does 250 per swing base damage, non-crit (500 on crits) while blitzing. So that's 12x250 = 3000 damage on the group of mobs in that 30 seconds from cleaves alone, assuming no crits at all. This is even ignoring that I crit on a 15-20. (Soon to improve that from 15-20x2 to 13-20x3 when I switch to sireth next life.)

Nothing in this destiny will do anything remotely close to what blitz alone does.

So lets consider everything in your 30 second example:

Your Blitzer 3000 damage per mob in group (assuming you actually hit every mob with every swing - most cleaves are not 360)

Assume Crusader with max damage is about 65% of blitzer with max damage and each mob has an average of 2500Hp and 5 stacks for Castigation.
Then in that 30seconds every mob cleaved takes 3000 * .65 = 1950 damage
Consecration ticks 10 times: 10 * 200 = 2000 damage
Castigation ticks 10 times for about 1000 damage (accounting for reduced hp each tick)
Celestial Bombardment hits for 600
Total for Crusader: 5550 per mob over that same time frame

Now this is an unrealistic scenario in that it is unlikely that a blitzer will have a pack of mobs around them in the cleave arc because they are usually running from mob to mob. My Paladin on the other hand can easily group up a large bunch of mobs on Epic Hard and below and often takes more than 30 seconds to take them all down so play style will have a huge impact on how effective Crusader is.

Granted that the Blitzer will do more damage to the mob in front of them and a for higher DPS build the difference will not be so great - but for a Paladin who can group mobs Crusader seems better to me. On the other hand, 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 encounters where the mobs fall in a few seconds and the Crusader ticks never really get going, the Blitzer will destroy the Crusader.

[ninjamonkey373]

Would you consider allowing renewal to be self targeted if twisted? That way we could have self healing more reliable than the rejuvenation cocoon, which is removed with one hit from an EE mob.

[Starla70]

Maybe that is really my whole issue with all these changes, there is no real healing major destiny. It is all a splash of this and a splash of that. Is it impossible to make one just for those of us that want to be healer based?

[Vellrad]

So no healing-based destiny?

Guess I'll have to start referring to it as "Beacon of Nope".

Why do you need hjealbot destiny?

All you need to heal is heal spell, quicken, empower healing, mass cure critical and cocoon, and you can hjeal anything in game.

[bennyson]

Would you consider allowing renewal to be self targeted if twisted?

I got an answer towards you ninjamonkey

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO!

Monchers are overpowered as it is with their Cocoon twist, allowing Renewal as a self-healing twist will further make them overpowered.

Keep Renewal as it is, this decision is balanced in terms of gameplay.

[Protasious]

Given infinite time and resources, we'd probably like to add a melee arcane option as well, given certain Artificer builds and Eldritch Knight, even though the most popular arcane builds are focused on spellcasting.

rather then yet another melee centered destiny, I would really like to see a ranged destiny in the arcane sphere. I would also like to see a ranged destiny in the divine sphere and martial sphere, and a caster / healing destiny in the primal sphere.

[EllisDee37]

Assume Crusader with max damage is about 65% of blitzer

How do you figure? As written in the OP, the wrather gets 200% damage compared to 350% blitzer. That's 57%, and you only get 57% for 3 seconds. It just goes downhill from there.

Now this is an unrealistic scenario in that it is unlikely that a blitzer will have a pack of mobs around them in the cleave arc because they are usually running from mob to mob. My Paladin on the other hand can easily group up a large bunch of mobs on Epic Hard and below and often takes more than 30 seconds to take them all down so play style will have a huge impact on how effective Crusader is.

Granted that the Blitzer will do more damage to the mob in front of them and a for higher DPS build the difference will not be so great - but for a Paladin who can group mobs Crusader seems better to me. On the other hand, 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 encounters where the mobs fall in a few seconds and the Crusader ticks never really get going, the Blitzer will destroy the Crusader.

Why does your divine crusader get to group mobs up for an AOE attack while my blitzer does not? I'm not following the logic.

This is also ignoring crits, which I specifically didn't include in my numbers. Crits favor blitzers even further because it's base damage.

[Starla70]

That might be how you run your healers, not the way I like to run my clerics. The people I tend to run with have a balanced party and each person has a job. Yes, I know that many now like to be a party unto themselves. That is not how many of the people I run with like to do it.

[SirValentine]

Maybe that is really my whole issue with all these changes, there is no real healing major destiny. It is all a splash of this and a splash of that. Is it impossible to make one just for those of us that want to be healer based?

Under this proposal, Unyielding Sentinel is the healing destiny. So what's the problem?

[Wongar]

How do you figure? As written in the OP, the wrather gets 200% damage compared to 350% blitzer. That's 57%, and you only get 57% for 3 seconds. It just goes downhill from there.

Why does your divine crusader get to group mobs up for an AOE attack while my blitzer does not? I'm not following the logic.

This is also ignoring crits, which I specifically didn't include in my numbers. Crits favor blitzers even further because it's base damage.

If you read my original post that you quoted you will see the answer to your first question. I accounted for an additional 30% damage from other enhancements in the destiny and I was suggesting that Wrath of the Righteous be changed to make it possible to keep 100%.

As for playstyle - there is nothing keeping you from grouping mobs with the Blitzer. It's just that when I play in Blitz I don't usually take the time to group mobs so that's how I looked at it. As I said playstyle dependent.

Unless you are using a weapon specific enhancement on the Blitzer, crits will not make much difference as we are talking about a % of damage to simplify the math.

[ninjamonkey373]

I got an answer towards you ninjamonkey

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY NO!

Monchers are overpowered as it is with their Cocoon twist, allowing Renewal as a self-healing twist will further make them overpowered.

Keep Renewal as it is, this decision is balanced in terms of gameplay.

I'm not disagreeing that monkchers are overpowered, but if that is the case, wouldn't it be more logical to balance monkcher builds to be more in line with other builds using things unique to monkchers, rather than things that would also affect all other builds that rely on rejuvenation cocoon for healing?

[Simonhook]

Most of the new changes to Unyielding Sentinel I can live with, but one should be changed.

-Commanding Presence: +50/100/150% Threat Generation (melee, ranged, magic)

This should not be allowed for ranged and magic. They do enough damage, that makes melees having to chase.

[Correlan]

Most of the new changes to Unyielding Sentinel I can live with, but one should be changed.

-Commanding Presence: +50/100/150% Threat Generation (melee, ranged, magic)

This should not be allowed for ranged and magic. They do enough damage, that requires melees to chase mobs.

Why should it not be allowed for ranged and magic? Tanks should be able to grab aggro with ranged weapons too, and caster tanks should be able to grab aggro with magic. I don't think it should be changed, you'd be taking away something useful for several minority builds.