Divine Sphere Epic Destiny Changes

[Grailhawk]

W[*]Wrath of the Righteous: Activate: Gain 100 stacks of Wrath. Wrath: +1 Spell Power, +1% Damage with all attacks. Wrath decays by 1 stack every 3 seconds. Long cooldown.[/list]unyieldingsentinel

This really isn't a good change, the old version had a chance to compete with LD or Fury this one does not. It would be better to go back to the old version even if you have to keep the stacking HP penalty. A better penalty might be a flat 10%, or 15% HP penalty when the ability is first activated that way it doesn't get crazy out of hand if people really build there stack.

[Wongar]

Are DC checks now based on Wisdom or Charisma or are they still just Wisdom?

Makes sense to me that the checks be either Wisdom or Charisma (as they are in Exalted Angel) given that 2 of the 3 divine classes are likely to focus on Charisma over Wisdom. Also seems the precedence was set with Exalted Angel to use the higher of the two and not just Wisdom.

[Wongar]

Wanted to add to Divine Crusader in my previous post about DCs. Can't seem to edit post

[Braegan]

EAs can twist extra DC from magister and draconic, but draconic and magister can't twist EA DC.
This is wrong.

Not really. Before this addition Arcanes were ahead on DCs by a good margin, after this addition they will still be ahead but by a lesser degree. I agree with this as implemented as it gives Divine Casters (something that was really lacking) a boost, without affecting the balance Arcanes currently enjoy.

[bbqzor]

Please let us know what you think about any or all of these changes!

On it!

Exalted Angel
Add some abilities to aid DC casting, as well as another light damage spell. Melee abilities have moved out along with Renewal.

New:

• Command SLA
• Sun Bolt SLA
• Mass Cure Light Wounds SLA
• Transcendent Magic (Spell DC bonuses)
• Piercing Spellcraft (Spell Penetration Bonus, doesn't stack with Piercing Spellcraft from Magister)
• Shadows Upon You: Target foe becomes cursed with Shadows Upon You, reducing all saving throws by -2/-4/-6. Whenever this foe is damaged by spells or attacks, saving throws are reduced by an additional -1. Stacks up to 10 times.

Changed:

• Divine Wrath no longer requires Ardor to cast. Cooldown and SP cost have been increased.
• Reborn in Light cooldown reduced from 30 minutes to 10 minutes. Counter requirements reduced to 25.

Moved:

• Renewal has been moved from Exalted Angel to Unyielding Sentinel. Requires being in Unyielding Sentinel to self-target.

- Command is a joke, sorry. I get that there are few options for a DC based CC divine spells which is not AE, but dont use command. Maybe Chaos Hammer/Orders Wrath/Holy Smite/Unholy Blight, where you can pick one of those 4 similar to the Draconic elemental SLAs as long as your alignment isnt opposed, same as memorizing the spell. They do damage, have a DC component with some CC effects, and are a little more flavorful and useful than Command, without being as big a balance concern as something like Greater Command (although seriously, Greater Command wouldnt be very good either lol). I would go with one of those, they see little use otherwise and would actually merit a button press were they available.

- Moving Renewal out but adding Mass CLW in is a fair trade. HOWEVER, please make it Mass CMW. CLW caps at CL25, and with Level 30 around the corner it really makes sense for the Epic Abilities to actually be able to use all our Epic Levels. Know what Im saying? So Mass Cure Moderate please! Dont add something which we immediately go over-cap on, lol.

- Divine Wrath having a longer cooldown and costing more SP is lame. Reason being: Youve added another good SLA (sunbolt) and fixed the epic moment (reborn in light) meaning its much more of an opportunity cost to take Divine Wrath now. Its no longer the "only" choice. And, having it use up counters before wasnt really a drawback, removing it changes very little (except possibly allowing Rebuke the Foe to see use, which is good in and of itself). So, if removing the counters was a buff for Rebuke the Foe, dont nerf Divine Wrath over it. Now that people are forced to pick between options, it makes NO sense to go and nerf one of those options. All that will do is create another situation of there being "only" one choice... and avoiding that is the entire point behind having more things than you can pick, so that there IS an actual choice.

Unyielding Sentinel
Renewal moves into Unyielding Sentinel, along with new increased threat generation, hit points, spell points, a raise dead option, and mass energy resistance spell.

New:

• Unyielding Sentinel now grants 40 spell points per Destiny level.
• Divine Energy Resistance: "You and nearby allies gain +35 Enhancement bonus to resist Energy for 1 minute per character level. (Includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic.)" (Same bonus type as Resist Energy spells.)
• Commanding Presence: +50/100/150% Threat Generation (melee, ranged, magic)
• Strength of Vitality: +10/15/20% Insightful bonus to maximum hit points.
• Resurrection SLA

Moved:

• Bane of Undeath, Confront Any Foe, Endless Turning have been moved from Unyielding Sentinel to Divine Crusader.
• Renewal has been moved from Exalted Angel to Unyielding Sentinel. Requires being in Unyielding Sentinel to self-target.
• Block Energy is now lowered to Tier 2.

Changed:

• Light the Dark:
  
  • Now accepts metamagics: Quicken, Empower Healing
  • Benefits 50% more from spellpower.
  • Cooldown increased to 12 seconds.
• Hardened: Upgraded to add +5/10/15 AC.

- All the new abilities are very well thought out, well placed, and well needed. Rather than add a point for each let me just say all Five of those new things are some very good design.

- Moving the Turning to Divine Crusader is a bit odd, but as its still T1 it allows Paladins (the most often tank wanting turn situation) to easily twist it which is fine. The other moves (adding renewel and moving down block energy) are perfectly fine and good decisions. I especially like block being easier to twist, as it fits with the feats (shield deflection) and the divine past life (also block) for people who want to go that route. Keeping that open at T2 allows it to fit with many more twist options, which is a minor but well considered perk.

- Light the Dark... not sure about the cd increase here. That it heals for more is very welcome, especially given your new design goals, as it allows more classes to benefit and the ability to play a larger role across more difficulty settings. But a heal every 12 seconds can be pretty slow in bad situations. Frankly I think it should go down to 6s, closer to Heal, given that it has a very limited number of uses in a short span (even at 10/shrine thats only 1 minute of healing at full speed before youre stuck waiting on uses to regen). But if youre going to make it slower, please cut the cd off at 9s (so it can be used once every 10s with latency, cast animation, etc). At 12s thats only once per action boost... thats a pretty long time to go without a group heal effect in a support-healing destiny. Anyhow, 6s is a good idea, 9s is acceptable... 12s, thats a pretty serious nerf. Remember that healing for more isnt necessarily useful... you have to heal before people hit 1 hp, and overhealing gains you nothing. On its own thats no reason to up the cd, we are still limited by uses available.

- I like the change to Hardened. I know many people lament AC but fact is its relatively simple to get over 200ac and still have good threat, and with the changes here that goes from relatively simple to just plain simple. AC needs a bit of a boost and heres a few points that make sense. That said, given that it now competes with a TON of other stuff its hard to justify sinking 3 points here, because of what that means you now have to give up. Id move it down a tier (to the empty spot below it in T4). That way its twistable at has less competition for other abilities. Or, make it 10/20/30 ac and keep it at T5, since youre literally given up 100s of HP taking it as is as well as committing to being in this destiny. Anyhow, step in the right direction, hopefully a little more adjustment can be made still to address those concerns.

Divine Crusader
Since it's time on Lamannia, Divine Crusader has taken some abilities from Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel. Many proposed abilities have been moved around, altered, or cut.

Will reserve judgement and comments until seeing the new version in play. When "many abilities have been altered" its just hard to go off some typing... will check it out in beta.

.........

In total, I like the changes to the 2 existing destinies, but Id like to see a few more tweaks. I dont think anything I posted is unreasonable, so frankly I hope to see all of it made =p. Mass Moderate, a better SLA than command, no Divine Wrath nerf, avoiding excessive cd on Light the Dark, and making Hardened less of a hard choice... all pretty basic stuff. Heres hoping you think so too. Cheers.

[Braegan]

We’ve taken a great deal of feedback related to Divine Crusader, Unyielding Sentinel, and Exalted Angel into consideration, and put together some changes that we hope give more focus to these destinies, as well as improving the Divine Sphere play experience and build options. These changes are planned to go live with a patch after Update 21. This is in addition to some previously previewed changes that are going live with Update 21 in Unyielding Sentinel.

Please let us know what you think about any or all of these changes!


Exalted Angel
Add some abilities to aid DC casting, as well as another light damage spell. Melee abilities have moved out along with Renewal.

First, thank for continued feedback. This proposal really looks much better. I am mostly focused on the new changed to EA, as well to be honest it will affect my main the most.

Little sad to see Renewal leave. But the Spell Pen and DC are really welcome. As well as DW not needing charges to fuel it anymore. I am hoping the cool-down on DW won't be too long. Also echoing previously asked, will the Sunbolt SLA from EA and Morninglord work independent? I.E. timers and such? That iconic has little else going for it.

[oberon131313]

A refresher on what all the current Divine Crusader abilities currently do, could be helpful to us players for feed back.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Divine_Crusader

[SirValentine]

EAs can twist extra DC from magister and draconic, but draconic and magister can't twist EA DC.
This is wrong.

And yet, as the game stands right now, Wizards can reach a higher DC in every single school over any Clr/FvS; slightly higher in some, much higher in others.

Imagine, if this goes through, different classes might all be able to reach similar DCs, with one reaching slightly higher in one school, while another reaches slightly higher in a different school! I can see why you'd think that's wrong.

[Ancient]

Thank you for sharing this and asking for feedback! I like the new trend towards involving the players.

I mainly play casters, so I'll focus on EA.

1.) The epic moment still isn't tempting. Especially now there are two other attack spells. This should be a toggle with less benefits.

2.) I need to play test it, but I think the fire attacks from divine crusader would be better in EA. This needs to be on par with draconic or shiradi. On paper, I'm not seeing it yet. But it may play better than it reads.

3.) Removing the light counters for divine wrath is great. This makes clerics a very viable choice for light casters now... (now the problem is that the FVS class is underpowered except as a splash).

4. Please fix the targeting on divine wrath and allow quicken!!!!

5. Raising the cost of divine wrath is going the wrong way. If already does far less damage than energy burst. (No, the heal doesn't make up the difference in value).

6. The command SLA doesn't seem popular... I'm one more who wont take it.

7. I understand moving renewal, but I do think there should be some self-heal option in each divine destiny. The mass CLW is interesting, but that is not "self-healing".

I like the direction, but it seems like you are holding back in fear of making something too good. Holding back just keeps us in the state where there are 3-5 "viable" destinies. There is room for more focus/goodies without straying into overpowered.

[AtomicMew]

EA destiny looks really nice now. My one suggestion would be to make the judgement line work on all targets, not just undead or whatever. As it is, nobody is going to take those enhancements.

[EllisDee37]

[*]Wrath of the Righteous: Activate: Gain 100 stacks of Wrath. Wrath: +1 Spell Power, +1% Damage with all attacks. Wrath decays by 1 stack every 3 seconds. Long cooldown.[/list]unyieldingsentinel

Well, it is different. Removing the penalty is an excellent change, so thank you for that.

100% bonus that decays over time is a bad direction to go in, though. Increasing power as you go is fun. Trying to find the next mob to maintain that power is fun. Gradually getting weaker and weaker is not fun.

Also, no matter what the mechanic, if it tops out at +100% damage I simply cannot justify using this destiny for my dps paladin. It's just not competitive with blitz, at all. I really, really want to use this destiny on my dps paladin. I don't mind being weaker than a blitzer, I really don't. But this is just too much weaker.

Please consider changing it to:

+10% damage per stack, max 20 stacks (+200%), each kill adds a stack/refreshes counter, stacks decay every 30 seconds

Compare that to blitz:

+25% damage per stack, max 10 stacks (+250%), each kill adds a stack/refreshes counter, stacks decay every 15 seconds

The wrath version I outline is clearly weaker, but not so much weaker that I would be able to justify leaving LD for DC. The compensation for being weaker (80% of the potential of blitz, takes twice as long to build up as blitz) is that you get double the grace period on keeping it going.

I would like to stress again that increasing your power as you go is fun. Gradually decaying power is the opposite of fun.

EDIT: Put another way, the wrath mechanic outlined in the OP essentially boils down to "Start out half as strong as if you were blitzing and gradually get weaker and weaker until you're so weak you find a quiet corner, go have a smoke, maybe make a sandwich, then come back and resume playing at half the strength of blitz. Lather, rinse, repeat."

EDIT 2: I suppose I could just barely justify making the switch if it were 15 stacks of 10%, but then I'd want the full minute per stack and geez, this would be a major loss of power compared to blitz but I suppose I could grin and bear it purely for flavor. Because, let's face it, anyone playing a dps paladin is, in fact, purely playing for flavor. DPS paladins really are that bad. Maybe I'm lying to myself; I'm not sure I could convince myself to play in this destiny if wrath only went up to 150%. 200% is where it needs to get to.

[TheDr0wRanger]

Thank you for sharing this and asking for feedback! I like the new trend towards involving the players.

2.) I need to play test it, but I think the fire attacks from divine crusader would be better in EA. This needs to be on par with draconic or shiradi. On paper, I'm not seeing it yet. But it may play better than it reads.

No, it needs to be appropriately comparable to Draconic accounting for the fact that it offers synergy with melee, increased HP and adds only divine caster levels. This means it will be better for FVS than Sorcs, which is reasonable, but it shouldn't match dps with a destiny that doesn't offer the other benefits of this tree. Or give draconic an ability that lets them heal from their element and then you can do whatever.

[btolson]

EA: Overall, not really liking it. Still fairly heavy on stuff that is either too situational/quest-dependant (e.g., only works on undead/outsiders -- please stay away from this if you're not going to provide a universal-but-weaker alternative path) or potentially useless (command sla) or just boring (spellpower, attributes).
-I would like to see things that offer more castings levels, maximum casting levels, reduced cooldowns, or other potentially more weighty spell-casting augmentations.
-An AOE blindness SLA with an evocation-based-DC would be good, certainly better than command.
-Sunbolt or Divine Wrath should be lower in the tree, so that this destiny is not so boring before the top tier: whilst the leveling experience is certainly not of primary importance, it is still an issue -- make this destiny feel fun and different prior to maxing it out!
-If Judgement et al stay in this tree, then they should be affected by spellpower. They should also have some effect on anything that is evil, even if it's not an undead/outsider. Also, Lay to Rest is melee range IIRC, which should change now that melee is no longer covered by this destiny.


US: A large waste of potential. As I see it, this destiny should strive to make shield-use, active blocking, and yes even shield bashing much more useful and even integral (at least for tanking), and make the word 'tanking' much less synonymous with the word 'piking.' Some (rough) ideas:
-alter one of the stances to give you +500% active blocking DR.
-add an ability similar to archer's focus, where for every 1 second you spend actively blocking with a shield you gain a stack of +25% melee damage for 3 seconds, to a max of 4/6/8 stacks. This is a more fun and less pikey way of holding aggro than a flat threat bonus behind the scenes.
-bonus light damage added to shield attacks. Chance to proc blindness (useful for mitigating damage).
-a full cleave attack using only your shield as a weapon, utilizing the bonus light damage and blindness proc above (building either an AoE attack or taunt into a tanking destiny should be considered mandatory, for obvious reasons).
-alter a stance or add an ability to cause shield bashes to daze or knockout (sleep) the victim, with a cooldown on how often it can occur.
-shield spikes to reflect damage to melee attackers while actively blocking.
-alter a stance or add an ability to let you 'push through' a throng of enemies while tumbling with a shield equipped, to aid mobility if you get swarmed. Functionally this would likely be a lot like the tumbling augment in Magister but it may displace enemies instead of just passing through them.
-alter a stance or add an ability to grant you a 30% movement speed buff if something that is attacking you switches targets, so that you may pursue it more easily (monsters are all much faster than players). If that's too hard to implement, then a hamstring-like ability with a moderate range instead.

As I said above, these ideas are rough but they should at least get the ball rolling on how to make active shield usage useful, nimble, and fun instead of just thematic. If this doesn't happen in the tanking destiny, then it won't happen anywhere.


DC: having missed the opportunity to playtest this before, I can't really comment on it except to say that I think all this aura stuff and consecrated ground would be more conducive to the tanking destiny since they do not lose effectiveness while shield blocking, thereby reducing the high opportunity cost of active blocking that marginalizes that tanking style.

[Cyr]

Lame.
I still see these destinies as a wasteland for most builds. Worse, I see the one thing which could have made getting divine sphere karma not so horrible is going to be worse then original making it another meh destiny.

Seriously, lets compare notes here...level 1 spell SLA of a spell almost no one uses for good reason is in a destiny tree for what conceivable reason again?

[Livmo]

We’ve taken a great deal of feedback related to Divine Crusader, Unyielding Sentinel, and Exalted Angel into consideration, and put together some changes that we hope give more focus to these destinies, as well as improving the Divine Sphere play experience and build options. These changes are planned to go live with a patch after Update 21. This is in addition to some previously previewed changes that are going live with Update 21 in Unyielding Sentinel.

Please let us know what you think about any or all of these changes!

o-[========> I took out the other 2 EDs I won't be commenting on.




New:

• Unyielding Sentinel now grants 40 spell points per Destiny level.
• Divine Energy Resistance: "You and nearby allies gain +35 Enhancement bonus to resist Energy for 1 minute per character level. (Includes Acid, Cold, Electric, Fire, and Sonic.)" (Same bonus type as Resist Energy spells.)
• Commanding Presence: +50/100/150% Threat Generation (melee, ranged, magic)
• Strength of Vitality: +10/15/20% Insightful bonus to maximum hit points.
• Resurrection SLA

Moved:

• Bane of Undeath, Confront Any Foe, Endless Turning have been moved from Unyielding Sentinel to Divine Crusader.
• Renewal has been moved from Exalted Angel to Unyielding Sentinel. Requires being in Unyielding Sentinel to self-target.
• Block Energy is now lowered to Tier 2.

Changed:

• Light the Dark:
  
  • Now accepts metamagics: Quicken, Empower Healing
  • Benefits 50% more from spellpower.
  • Cooldown increased to 12 seconds.
• Hardened: Upgraded to add +5/10/15 AC.

I cannot comment about the other 2 EDs, since I've not used much, or yet.

Unyielding Sentinel on the other hand is one of my favorites. First, I really dig that you put Resurection in there. This will allow me to ETR and not have to stress about UMD and scrolls. I like this change.

Based on my play style I don't use Unyielding Sentinel as intended, although I switch to it for tanking purposes at times. The increase in threat generation will affect me a bit, but I won't sweat it. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Unless you want to make this be toggle-able in some way without having to reset the ED? Just kidding. That would make an easy button (being able to turn it on and off at will) and not necessary. I do like the extra threat generation for tanking purposes however.

Moar hit points is always good and the addition of spell points is a boon. Basically I like all the changes to this tree. I will be resetting my tree as soon as I'm able to.

I'm sorry I cannot comment on the others.

[Ancient]

No, it needs to be appropriately comparable to Draconic accounting for the fact that it offers synergy with melee, increased HP and adds only divine caster levels. This means it will be better for FVS than Sorcs, which is reasonable, but it shouldn't match dps with a destiny that doesn't offer the other benefits of this tree. Or give draconic an ability that lets them heal from their element and then you can do whatever.

You quoted me saying I thought the fire attacks should be in EA, which has nothing to do with draconic.

The part I said about draconic was that EA needs to be about as strong. EA doesn't offer synergy with melee, doesn't increase hp so your comment still doesn't make sense. Add in the fact that draconic offers not only DPS, but some very nice save boosts and other defensive options... and add in the fact they took renewal out of EA... I'm not sure what your point is.

Yeah, I think divine wrath does need to be as good as energy burst and the whole destiny needs to be as offensive as draconic. It is supposed to be the best divine sphere for offensive casters, why should it not be as good as the arcane offensive casting destiny?

[maddong]

I think it is a step in the right direction.

I like that you put things up for feedback early before they are coded. I wish enhancements/original EDs would have been posted like this instead of having players cut/paste the powers into a post for everyone to read that doesn't get on the test server.

[bbqzor]

3.) Removing the light counters for divine wrath is great. This makes clerics a very viable choice for light casters now... (now the problem is that the FVS class is underpowered except as a splash).

4. Please fix the targeting on divine wrath and allow quicken!!!!

5. Raising the cost of divine wrath is going the wrong way. If already does far less damage than energy burst. (No, the heal doesn't make up the difference in value).

Just wanted to comment on these points as Ive seen them mentioned many a time, in this thread and elsewhere. This post was just one of the most succinct to bring them up, and conveniently numbered too! =p

3. Clerics are already good light casters, this is kind of a misplaced assumption. With Divine Disciple adding Searing Light SLA and Sunbolt (not SLA but really good spell) there is an easy way to build counters quickly, when combined with Avenging Light. Also, Flamestrike (no kind of enhancement concern its just a spell) builds counters incredibly fast, and if used for just that purpose meta's can be toggled off making it cheap (and clerics can just swap this in at a shrine for free any old time). There is really no reason a cleric cannot keep the stack at a full 10 24/7 for very little cost at all. My point in all this isnt that removing the counters is bad... only that its not a buff to Divine Wrath. Its a change which makes Rebuke Foe actually playable. As it stands, there is zero reason to ever hit that key, after these updates there will be. But it is no cause to nerf Divine Wrath, the ability is no better after this change than it is now.

4. True story bro. This thing needs less picky targeting so it doesnt fizzle if the mob dies while its incredibly slow cast animation happens. Related, letting Quicken apply might address that incredibly slow cast time.

5. As above, it does not need a nerf. Its good as is, not broken powerful, and not an auto-take once the other changes go in, but merely good. It doesnt need to be nerfed... rather you are adding other choices which by their very presence add opportunity costs to taking Divine Wrath. That sort of decision making for players is good for the game, and making this ability worse is just going to take it away from people who just wind up using the other two instead. Don't replace the current auto-take with a new auto-take, viable choice is a superior solution.

Also: Nimbus of Light doesnt add to light counters. It should. Fix that please. Thx. Thats why this wasnt listed in point three above... its an easy fix its about time it was made.

[Vellrad]

Not really. Before this addition Arcanes were ahead on DCs by a good margin, after this addition they will still be ahead but by a lesser degree. I agree with this as implemented as it gives Divine Casters (something that was really lacking) a boost, without affecting the balance Arcanes currently enjoy.

Classes enhancements are irrelevant.

EDs are not classes, they're addons that can be added to any class you wish.

[mikarddo]

Divine Wrath no longer requires Ardor to cast. Cooldown and SP cost have been increased.

By removing the Ardor requirement you make this easier to use for everyone except FvS who didnt have any issue using it. As that was pretty much the only small thing a FvS had over a Cleric in EA this now makes FvS even more clearly behind Clerics on the power curve. In particular Clerics got Leap of Faith in EA which used to be FvS only.

Please consider adding something that offsets this and make FvS viable again.

My suggestion would be to add something to the EA tree that makes all Divine spells and SLA use the higher of Wis and Cha for DC. I realise this helps others as well including clerics but since FvS are CHA based for SP it definitely adds something to FvS of interest. I am open to other suggestions as well - but please add something worthwhile to FvS or Clerics will easily be the prefered choice and FvS only used as 2-4 splashes.