How much STR does a Monk REALLY need?

[Requimatic]

I think you misunderstand how vorpal works (alternately I misunderstand what you're trying to say, in which case I apologize). On a roll of 20, monsters with less than 1000 HP die instantly, but that's just the gravy. On a roll of 20, monsters with more HP take 100 damage instead; that's the meat and potatoes. You don't have to wait for the monster to have less than 1000 HP for Vorpal to have a useful eff

Haha, no, I understand what you're saying; I know how Vorpal works. But its effects only activate on a roll of 20; the other two things are passive and work regardless of what you roll (unless you miss, of course). I'm just not a fan of (relying on..) RNG effects, really. I'm more in to passive effects that I can easily see a difference in, rather than "oh, that just happened. okay, next mob". Don't get me wrong, a passive Vorpal effect is nothing to laugh at considering the wraps I'd be using (Antipode, or something crafted perhaps), I just don't like the RNG involved is all.

However, I will admit that the Phantasmal Killer effect of the Traraak Wraps happens frequently. I believe I've actually noticed it activating from offhand and/or Doublestrikes, and I've had it, somehow, kill two targets at once, which is neat. And it can be negated by a save.. Vorpal cannot.

But with the advent of considering dropping CON to about 10 in my next life, I could get both Overwhelming Critical and Vorpal Strikes. If I had to pick between the two, though, I'd choose Overwhelming Critical and make the build work around it.

But now I'm curious.. as to how the person above is achieving a bit over 900 HP at L28, with GMoF active, with only 9 CON. My L16 Monk has 21 CON currently and wouldn't have anywhere near that with GMoF active, unless there's something I'm missing. I won't be able to stack Yugo pots either, considering my Monk never got to run ToD before I took a long break from the game. So assuming a Health +10 item (19), Earth Stance (23), ship buffs (25), probably exceptional bonuses in there somewhere (<=28).. I'm curious of how such a high number is happening. Unless Yugo pot stacking is exactly how it's happening.. which, if that's the case, makes me a little sad.. to have to rely on those pots to achieve certain thresholds. (This isn't taking in to account things like GFL, Vitality, etc.)

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

You can still have a decent str and wis, properly planned and geared.

Standing 36, buffed 52 str, with 50 wis.

Took:

Monk PLF
Vorpal strikes
Improved martial arts
Overwhelming critical
Perfect two weapon fighting
Tactician
EPL feat doublestrike

Love playing him!

Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk...I sit over 850+... I dont consider that too bad (think my con stands at 38, going from memory)

[Munkenmo]

But now I'm curious.. as to how the person above is achieving a bit over 900 HP at L28, with GMoF active

I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
80 Epic levels
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1080 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)

Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk

No it's not, see above.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1000 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)


No it's not, see above.

Sure... if ya wanna go fighter, wiz, monk... with barb past lives and such..

My monk is pure human, therefore dumping con to 11 was not feasible, but nice layout buds... can be done.

Edit: can currently switch to sentinel now and think its vigor stance and top 1k hps, but sentinel is meh.

[Munkenmo]

Sure... if ya wanna go fighter, wiz, monk... with barb past lives and such..

My monk is pure human, therefore dumping con to 11 was not feasible, but nice layout buds... can be done.

If I were pure it would only reduce my hp by 15 over my current setup.

The point wasn't to match my hp, it's that dumping con IS feasible.
I only gave my breakdown because the op asked how I reached it, anyone could hit 750hp in GMOF with dumped con these days, which on a character with improved evasion, earthstance and shadowfade is plenty.

[Dalsheel]

I still enjoy starting with 15 or 16 CON, cause it allows to me skip False Life or Vitality or both on my gear, to make things easier Too many needs on a monk's gear these days.

[Requimatic]

I can actually hit 1k in GMOF with 11base con without going overboard on outside buffs:

Con
11 base
5 tome
10 item
2 completionist
3 earth stance
1 exceptional
3 insightful


Reasonable con buffs
2 guild
2 rage
Less reasonable con buffs
3 primal scream
2 bard song
2 yugo
4 madstone
2 alchemical
2 insight


54 Con

Hp:
616 Con
128 Monk
20 Fighter
8 Wiz
20 Heroic Durability
30 barb lives
33 primal lives
10 GH favor
20 Tortoise (henshin enhancment)
15 Conditioning (shintao enhancement)
15 EK toughness (ek enhancemnt)
50 false life
20 vitality
15 standing with stone (GMOF enhancement)

1000 Total HP at 28 in gmof, with 11base con. (i'm normally at 900ish, i do carry my madstone boots as the recon SLA works when madstoned)


No it's not, see above.

Ah, okay, that makes sense now. I knew there'd be things I wasn't accounting for, like Barb/Primal/etc. past lives, haha. So realistically, with none of that (since this Monk is my first TR at all, and it's only on its second life), I could probably hit around.. 700-800, give or take some, mostly based on probability of me being able to obtain certain equipment, and augments to go with said equipment.

Thanks for the breakdown on that; like I said, I knew I was missing some things. I didn't even stop to think about things like past lives, heh.

[relenttless]

Having paid anttention to this thread I just etr'd my human monk for the second time and re-jiggered her as a wis/Str build.

VAST improvement, she was ok before as a wis/dex build and did fine in ee content but her dps is already ( at level 22) better than it was at 28, and that is just using crappy grave wraps and lvl 16 knuckles. I'm intrigued to see what happens once I get ee adamantine and tier 2 thunder wraps out, even antipode should be good.

Went for a fairly standard
16 str +4 tome+ 3 lvl up (only + 5 tome out there was 1500 shards..........)
16 con +4 tome
14 dex + 4 tome
16 wis + 5 tome + 2 lvl up.

Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

17 aps into human to get max amp,
41 aps into shintao for capstone,
Rest into ninja for sa and helpless

Twists: cocoon, ld tactics, and sense weakness.

The only thing I really miss at the moment is twisting the ld haste boost, but I'm pretty sure sense weakness is better overall.

Stun dc is still going to hit mid 70's,
QP dc will only be mid 50's but thats life, lets face it, it ain't what it once was.

My only uncertainty is whether to bother with vorpal strikes or to take blinding speed.
I'm not sure of the usefulNess of vorpal/s in higher level content, while the increased attack speed of bh is very nice and allows her to discard jordangals collar.
She has ee treads of falling shadow, but am leaning towards blinding speed at the moment.

Anyway, my thanks to those wise contributors in this thread.

[Munkenmo]

Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

1 dodge (M: power Attack) (H: Cleave)
3 Stunning Fist (M: 2wf)
6 great cleave (M: Deflect Arrows)
9 Itwf
12 Icrit bludgeon
15 Gtwf
18 Magical Training (yes I'm being serious, it gives you 80sp, and echoes of training is unlimited rejuv cocoons)
21 OC
24 Vorpal
26 Tactics
27 Blinding Speed
28 PTWF

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Having paid anttention to this thread I just etr'd my human monk for the second time and re-jiggered her as a wis/Str build.

VAST improvement, she was ok before as a wis/dex build and did fine in ee content but her dps is already ( at level 22) better than it was at 28, and that is just using crappy grave wraps and lvl 16 knuckles. I'm intrigued to see what happens once I get ee adamantine and tier 2 thunder wraps out, even antipode should be good.

Went for a fairly standard
16 str +4 tome+ 3 lvl up (only + 5 tome out there was 1500 shards..........)
16 con +4 tome
14 dex + 4 tome
16 wis + 5 tome + 2 lvl up.

Pwr attack, cleave, great cleave, ,imp crit, imp 2wf, mob, dodge, spring attack, overwhelming crit

17 aps into human to get max amp,
41 aps into shintao for capstone,
Rest into ninja for sa and helpless

Twists: cocoon, ld tactics, and sense weakness.

The only thing I really miss at the moment is twisting the ld haste boost, but I'm pretty sure sense weakness is better overall.

Stun dc is still going to hit mid 70's,
QP dc will only be mid 50's but thats life, lets face it, it ain't what it once was.

My only uncertainty is whether to bother with vorpal strikes or to take blinding speed.
I'm not sure of the usefulNess of vorpal/s in higher level content, while the increased attack speed of bh is very nice and allows her to discard jordangals collar.
She has ee treads of falling shadow, but am leaning towards blinding speed at the moment.

Anyway, my thanks to those wise contributors in this thread.

Another option is to run in LD, and twist in cocoon, a dance of flowers, and sense weakness....

That way you still had leg tactics, imp power attack, HASTE BOOST (love it!), also Devistating Critical which stacks with OC. Oh and i fogot to mention MASTERS BLITZ... which i think is just lovely.

I switch ED's off and on between GMoF and LD, and i find i can do more damage in LD, but the SF and QP does drop, compared to running in GMOF.

Just a suggestion.

PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

[relenttless]

1 dodge (M: power Attack) (H: Cleave)
3 Stunning Fist (M: 2wf)
6 great cleave (M: Deflect Arrows)
9 Itwf
12 Icrit bludgeon
15 Gtwf
18 Magical Training (yes I'm being serious, it gives you 80sp, and echoes of training is unlimited rejuv cocoons)
21 OC
24 Vorpal
26 Tactics
27 Blinding Speed
28 PTWF

I know enough to take your suggestions seriously! Interesting idea, very interesting. Does magical training work for pure build with no inherent sp, though? Is it even an option on the list of choices? Can't recall.

Currently just yellow slotting sp Aug which is no problem, but love the idea of not running out. Definitly worth swapping out spring attack for.

edit: dammmm just went to see fred and it is possible on a pure...will think about this ....

[relenttless]

Another option is to run in LD, and twist in cocoon, a dance of flowers, and sense weakness....

That way you still had leg tactics, imp power attack, HASTE BOOST (love it!), also Devistating Critical which stacks with OC. Oh and i fogot to mention MASTERS BLITZ... which i think is just lovely.

I switch ED's off and on between GMoF and LD, and i find i can do more damage in LD, but the SF and QP does drop, compared to running in GMOF.

Just a suggestion.

PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

Was intending to try out running in both Ld and fotw just to see what its like, rather than gmof _probably try it solo though, :-)

Edit: tried it out in LD......impressive numbers once blitz kicks in, saw crits of well over 2.5 k, great damage for a monk, particularly at this level and without top end wraps -stun still seemed pretty good, however I can see it might only be of value in certain qsts and when soloing, trying to compete for kills in a party situation might actually be counterproductive if running with another Blitzer, better just stun in gmof and drop ein/drifting lotus, still, its certainly a lot of fun

[Munkenmo]

edit: dammmm just went to see fred and it is possible on a pure...will think about this ....

Yep, it was a good day when the devs made that feat selectable.

PS. I've been pondering dropping PTWF in favor of blazing speed... just haven't pulled the tirgger yet.

You're comparing an ED feat and an epic feat, they're not interchangeable.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Yep, it was a good day when the devs made that feat selectable.



You're comparing an ED feat and an epic feat, they're not interchangeable.

Yep, you are right... could drop imp. MA for blinding speed I guess.

[Fallout_Zero]

Yep, you are right... could drop imp. MA for blinding speed I guess.

Feat slots are valuable. I use EE Jorg collar so don't need blinding speed.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Ps. Oh yeah, dont dump con, thats just silly talk...

No it's not, see above.

Dumping HP is silly talk. Dumping Con as a starting stat is not silly since there are lots and lots of ways to get more Con in particular and more HP in general.

More Con is always good. It's important to recognize that lots of other things are good. If you need Str for something specific (Overwhelming Crit and damage in general) or Wis (DC and saving throws) or Dex (17 is absolutely required) some other stat, then it's okay to let Con slide in order to hit that goal. If you have build points available to put into Con, then do so. But don't skimp on something important just for "MOAR CON".

Dumping Con at character creation is fine if you have a reason to do so (and there are lots of reasons to do so) as long as you make up for it later.

[Humperdink]

Was intending to try out running in both Ld and fotw just to see what its like, rather than gmof _probably try it solo though, :-)

Edit: tried it out in LD......impressive numbers once blitz kicks in, saw crits of well over 2.5 k, great damage for a monk, particularly at this level and without top end wraps -stun still seemed pretty good, however I can see it might only be of value in certain qsts and when soloing, trying to compete for kills in a party situation might actually be counterproductive if running with another Blitzer, better just stun in gmof and drop ein/drifting lotus, still, its certainly a lot of fun

Some silly fun is haste boosting combined with stunning fist in LD and No Mercy from Ninja Spy. Twist in Sense Weakness. Combine with OC and Earth Stance. 50% Stunned + 30% No Mercy + 30% Sense Weakness + 50% from LD means your damage goes up *dramatically*. =D You're right about the usual limitations of running in LD though, generally more fun for soloing or in a group that knows you're Blitzing.

[Xiadais]

Haha, no, I understand what you're saying; I know how Vorpal works. But its effects only activate on a roll of 20; the other two things are passive and work regardless of what you roll (unless you miss, of course). I'm just not a fan of (relying on..) RNG effects, really. I'm more in to passive effects that I can easily see a difference in, rather than "oh, that just happened. okay, next mob". Don't get me wrong, a passive Vorpal effect is nothing to laugh at considering the wraps I'd be using (Antipode, or something crafted perhaps), I just don't like the RNG involved is all.
<snip>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but vorpal is an extra "bane" damage, not part of your main number, and is therefore not boosted by damage boost, black dragonscale 5%, blitz, stun +50% +30% +30% +50%, and vulnerability. Plus, improved martial arts works better with Empty Hand Mastery--which makes it 4.5 damage per hit (d8 = 4.5 average), able to be multiplied, and consistent (rather than waiting to roll a 20). Oh, and improved martial arts doesn't require 23 base wisdom ^_^. Zombies still do have DR, though, unfortunately.

[thegreatneil]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but vorpal is an extra "bane" damage, not part of your main number, and is therefore not boosted by damage boost, black dragonscale 5%, blitz, stun +50% +30% +30% +50%, and vulnerability. Plus, improved martial arts works better with Empty Hand Mastery--which makes it 4.5 damage per hit (d8 = 4.5 average), able to be multiplied, and consistent (rather than waiting to roll a 20). Oh, and improved martial arts doesn't require 23 base wisdom ^_^. Zombies still do have DR, though, unfortunately.

Just wanted to note, vorpal (and manslayer) IS affected by stun.