How much STR does a Monk REALLY need?

[Culver.Civello]

While Str is vital for a mellee DPS, if you rule out Monks Wisdom based stuff on the fact that it won't work with 'some' content, then you are missing out on a lot. DPS is great, specially for red names, ect. However, a nicely placed QP and SF is also very optimal, at least against most other content. I mean, if I wanted top DPS and max Str, I'd go for a Barbarian, or maybe a Fury shooting Ranger/Monkcher. A base strength enough to get OC, is more than enough to get a decently geared monk, the DPS he needs against those red-names. I've never had an issue. Sure, I could probably hit for slightly larger numbers if I maxed out strength a little more, but It just wouldn't be all that fun, and not even close to the DPS you can lay on trash with a nice SF. ^.^ Having played both kinds, they are both nice... but for me personally; Str, while important, isn't THAT important. I mean, whatever works for you, but I like a little in Strength then the rest in Wis.

[Robbenklopper]

Hiya!

Like some others said before, STR is important for a frontliner. My 1st life Monk was a STR-based whirlwind fighter and did some nice damage. On 2nd life, I fell in love with the vorpal strikes and spread most to WIS. On my 3rd life now, i qualified for OC and VS.
Mainly running is Earth-Stance, unbuffed:

STR=38
DEX=28
CON=38
INT=16
WIS=48
CHA=16

I throw into fight with kukan from ranged, then preparing a shining star finisher on the way and hit. Next is QP, then SF and SB, and blast a drifting Lotus. First Blood does a painful start to all of them. So far not much STR required. mostly 1 Kill and 4 stunned damaged enemys PLUS a few other thrown to ground. Now you Need to Punch. By makeing your enemys helpless, you deal more damage, whether your STR is 38 or maybe just 30. Qualitified for OC gives you more Crits and higher DMG. I have a +10 Seeker and use Earth finishers. STR supports my fighting, but mainly it´s the mix of the Monks feats that Troubles the enemys. I can´t even compare in DMG with my friends 40 STR and his feats, but Overall with consequenst fast hard hits, every Monk can be dangerous. Main Stat is WIS to do all the Trouble, so i mainly threw my Attention on that. I wished to get my WIS on 50, but i needed to be balanced with CON for HP and STR for the RED names. With more STR, you can deal a bit faster, but they would even fall with a 30 STR. I´d say don´t be under 30 in STR or it´s gonna be a too hard fight vs. the rednamed. My QP after U21 is at 51 (>50%) and SF at 67 (>66%), so still good chances to Trouble a lot.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

3rd life 36pt build with +4 str and wis tomes (I believe, going from memory)

My lvl28 pure human light monk has OC, vorpal strikes, imp. Martial arts, perfect twf.

Usually run in LD destiny for blitz, can get str to 52 or 54 with mastone boots, but that nullifies cocoon, so lame, and wis is in the high 40s, think SF is around 61 and QP around 47, and I run LD destiny in earth stance.

Switch to GMOF, change some twists, run in water, SF at 72 QP at 52, and saves in high 50s.

Either way, took shintao to cap for max heal amp and kukando line, ninja spy enough for shadow veil, some SA, hensien for tortoise ( I think thats the one), and human for heal amp, FOL finisher 200+ with devotion slotted, cocoon when needed is nice too.

Blur 20%, (ring of shadows), incorpreality (10% perm from ring, Shadowveil for 25%, timed), dodge 26% in LD, 31% in GMOF

Can get PRR to 100+, with gear and switching to unbreakable in US destiny, (meh), but in LD or GMOF its only 50.

Still hits like a truck, greats saves and defense, self healing, stuns, instakills, almost never use shrine, cept to get clickies back.

Put enough into wisdom to get vorpal strikes first, and if you can get str high enough with tomes, go for OC

OC stacks with devistating critical from LD destiny too, which is nice

I use handwraps and ocassionally my thunderforged shuriken, and im not dissapointed at all with my damage numbers. Get a full stack of blitz, twist in sense weakness, stun and watch the numbers fly. (even unstunned, the skellies in thunderholme just melt. Backstabber gloves help )

Love seeing the 3k crits too, on stunned helpless mobs.

Im sure their are better builds, with better tomes, but if you can swing OC, and vorpal strikes, go for it.

If not, id take vorpal strikes over OC.

[Requimatic]

Hiya!

Like some others said before, STR is important for a frontliner. My 1st life Monk was a STR-based whirlwind fighter and did some nice damage. On 2nd life, I fell in love with the vorpal strikes and spread most to WIS. On my 3rd life now, i qualified for OC and VS.
Mainly running is Earth-Stance, unbuffed:

STR=38
DEX=28
CON=38
INT=16
WIS=48
CHA=16

I throw into fight with kukan from ranged, then preparing a shining star finisher on the way and hit. Next is QP, then SF and SB, and blast a drifting Lotus. First Blood does a painful start to all of them. So far not much STR required. mostly 1 Kill and 4 stunned damaged enemys PLUS a few other thrown to ground. Now you Need to Punch. By makeing your enemys helpless, you deal more damage, whether your STR is 38 or maybe just 30. Qualitified for OC gives you more Crits and higher DMG. I have a +10 Seeker and use Earth finishers. STR supports my fighting, but mainly it´s the mix of the Monks feats that Troubles the enemys. I can´t even compare in DMG with my friends 40 STR and his feats, but Overall with consequenst fast hard hits, every Monk can be dangerous. Main Stat is WIS to do all the Trouble, so i mainly threw my Attention on that. I wished to get my WIS on 50, but i needed to be balanced with CON for HP and STR for the RED names. With more STR, you can deal a bit faster, but they would even fall with a 30 STR. I´d say don´t be under 30 in STR or it´s gonna be a too hard fight vs. the rednamed. My QP after U21 is at 51 (>50%) and SF at 67 (>66%), so still good chances to Trouble a lot.

Woo, I'd forgotten about this thread shortly after starting it and playing my Monk more. Since then, I capped out heroic levels, got two epic levels and took Imp. Martial Arts. Then I farmed my 20 tokens and TRed. This life, I've pumped WIS (until L15), and I'm more than happy with how frequently SF lands. (Probably around 90% on everything I've been in on elite, after being able to use only a +6 Stunner. (Vamp SDW))

Thanks to the anniversary event, I've been able to eat +3 tomes across the board on three characters.. that helped immensely. However, even with that, and just on a second life, I'll be unable to qualify for both OC and VS with this build, unless I find at least a +4 WIS tome. Sadly, I don't think those go up on the AH very often on Thelanis.. and even if they do, they're probably more expensive than I can afford right now. Sadface.

I think this life I'll focus on a WIS build, get VS, and try to farm a +4 WIS tome. Theeeen.. TR again and make such a build work.

In any event, I'm still highly enjoying my Monk, and that's what matters most. However, I know it's not currently at its full potential, nor will it be at 20 (or even 28, this life), so I'm going to just continue on and hopefully get lucky enough to either find a +4 WIS tome (or other stats), or buy one, or whatever.

But thanks, everyone, for all the input, discussion, and insight. I really appreciate it.

Edit: nevermind about the stats question, my math is bad and I forget things like enhancements. :P

[Arianka]

36-40 is good.

[TheGuyYouKnow]

23 base for the +1 crit multiplier on 19-20
16 + 5 tome + 2 level
failing that,
13 base for power attack

[Requimatic]

Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier? Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?

I know PTWF grants 5% MH and 10% OH Double Strike, but that also requires something in the Primal Sphere; and being passive, can't be twisted.. as far as I know, anyway.

[Daitengu]

Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier? Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?

Unfortunately earth stance is quite overpowered right now by giving loads of PRR, AC, Con and crit range via Shintao and Gmof. No other stance gets that many bonuses.

[Requimatic]

Unfortunately earth stance is quite overpowered right now by giving loads of PRR, AC, Con and crit range via Shintao and Gmof. No other stance gets that many bonuses.

Yeah, I knew about all of that. I just wasn't aware if all of that was worth it in comparison to the Doublestrike, though.

Although, I guess in the new content, all of that survivability out-weighs some Doublestrike severely. Especially considering haste isn't exactly hard to come by. (clickies, pots, other means)

[Robbenklopper]

Now that I think about it, I see a lot of you saying you're running in Earth Stance. Why is this? For the +1 multiplier on top of what OC gives?

Grandmaster of Rock: Mountain +4 Constitution, a 20% boost to AC, 15 physical resistance,, critical multiplier is increased by 1 on rolls of a natural 19 or 20, you gain 'Get Hit Effect: Gain 1 ki.'

Meditation of War: Toggle: Earth Stance: +10 Insight bonus to Physical Resistance and +3% Insight bonus to Maximum Hit Points.

Hej,

Earth is giving my Monk a viable ac/prr and hp while doing good damage, but especially coz i gain ki for my finishers! Water leaves me a bit more vulnerable and lacking of Ki, the passive +1 is not that great like "on hit" Fire is the same vulnerability like water although the damage is good and ki is raining cats and Dogs!

Earth is the better balanced in my eyes.

[Snarglefrump]

In regards to Precision.. I know how useful that is for Rogues, since fortification nullifies Sneak Attack damage, but I'm not sure it's anywhere near as useful for Monks, whose damage doesn't consist of SA primarily.

Fortification also prevents critical hits. Precision can be useful even without sneak attack damage.

However, you shouldn't discount Sneak Attack damage on a monk, who are uniquely able to run up to a mob and make it susceptible to sneak attack (by stunning it). Sneak attack damage is the single easiest way to boost your damage against helpless mobs. Sneak Attack Training in the Ninja Spy tree try adds a d6 (+3.5 damage on average) to your Sneak Attack damage, each time you take it. A Sneak Attack Bonus +5 item adds +8 damage per hit. An Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus +3 item adds another +5 damage per hit.

If you take, say, two ranks of Sneak Attack Training and have both kinds of Sneak Attack Bonus, that's 20 points of sneak attack damage per hit on average.

[Snarglefrump]

I typically see people claiming Wind Stance is king, due to the Double Strike + attack speed (which is negated by haste if you're using any other stance, or the perma-haste feat, should one take it). But is the loss of Double Strike worth the +1 multiplier?

Earth Stance adds around 9% damage against mobs with no fortification. Wind Stance's doublestrike adds around 5% damage always. Wind Stance is better if you don't have Haste or you're fighting high-fortification mobs. Earth Stance is better if you do have Haste and you're fighting low-fortification mobs (or mobs whose fortification you can bypass).

Aside from damage, other factors to consider are:

• Earth Stance's defensive bonuses are much, much better than Wind Stance.
• Earth Stance increases threat generation dramatically, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances.
• Earth Stance decreases your run speed a bit.

They're both useful. Put them on a hot bar and switch as the situation warrants.

Are you able to, with gear, reach the same levels of Double Strike (I currently don't know what the cap on DS is, if there is one), essentially making Wind Stance obsolete?

Wind Stance's bonus to double strike stacks with everything. Nothing makes it obsolete.

There's no hard cap on doublestrike, but having more than 100% doublestrike serves no purpose. The game checks "do you get an extra hit?" and 100%, 110% and 120% will all answer the question the same way. In practice, you can't get to 100% doublestrike except briefly from the Shadow Double enhancement in the Ninja Spy tree.

[Requimatic]

Earth Stance adds around 9% damage against mobs with no fortification. Wind Stance's doublestrike adds around 5% damage always. Wind Stance is better if you don't have Haste or you're fighting high-fortification mobs. Earth Stance is better if you do have Haste and you're fighting low-fortification mobs (or mobs whose fortification you can bypass).

Aside from damage, other factors to consider are:

• Earth Stance's defensive bonuses are much, much better than Wind Stance.
• Earth Stance increases threat generation dramatically, which could be good or bad depending on the circumstances.
• Earth Stance decreases your run speed a bit.

They're both useful. Put them on a hot bar and switch as the situation warrants.

Wind Stance's bonus to double strike stacks with everything. Nothing makes it obsolete.

There's no hard cap on doublestrike, but having more than 100% doublestrike serves no purpose. The game checks "do you get an extra hit?" and 100%, 110% and 120% will all answer the question the same way. In practice, you can't get to 100% doublestrike except briefly from the Shadow Double enhancement in the Ninja Spy tree.

I have all four stances on a bar (with other stance-like abilities), and I do switch between them depending on the situation. However I'd typically only been using Earth if I ended up being the tank of the group, rather than for just pure damage purposes. With Overwhelming Critical (even more so if you're running LD), I can see Earth being superior in essentially every way, in almost all situations. Without either, I can see it being a situation where fortification would be the deciding factor.

As for Wind's Doublestrike.. I didn't realize it stacked with everything, so that's good to know. Also good to know there's no real cap on it, other than more than 100% would be useless. I don't have enough points in Ninja Spy for Shadow Double, so that doesn't really concern me much.. I only put enough points in it for 4? ranks of the SA training, Merciless, and a couple other filler abilities (Flash Bang!) that are marginally useful for avoidance. (against non-boss mobs only, though)

[Fallout_Zero]

I mainly stay in Earth. Lose out on speed, but gain so much In defense.
Then just too lazy to switch stances.

Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

[Requimatic]

I mainly stay in Earth. Lose out on speed, but gain so much In defense.
Then just too lazy to switch stances.

Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

Haha, well, as long as you're hasted, the movement speed loss is negligible. Not to mention you're probably still moving faster than others due to Monk class feats. Not sure there, though.

But, Vorpal Strikes.. yeah. I don't know how much use it would be in (some) EH content, and probably all EE content. Compared to something else (Imp. Martial Arts for example, or the past life feat), I'm not sure it's worth it at this point. However, this still leaves one wondering.. how much STR is really necessary? Obviously you still want SF, QP, and other Monk abilities to land. Is your WIS modifier going to be gimped if you pump your STR instead of putting some in to WIS?

Yeah, I know SF and others aren't going to work on bosses, and a lot of reds (especially new ones), but that doesn't mean one should ignore them, given their uses on non-boss NPCs.

But those, too; how useful are they in EE content? I know SF and QP probably lands frequently with 50-ish saves in EH, but what about EE?

Monks have too much to juggle. :/

[Snarglefrump]

Reading the discription for vorpal strikes doesn't seem to be that impressive. 100 on 20 and slashing. Thinking that or monk past life?

But, Vorpal Strikes.. yeah. I don't know how much use it would be in (some) EH content, and probably all EE content. Compared to something else (Imp. Martial Arts for example, or the past life feat), I'm not sure it's worth it at this point.

• Monk Past Life Feat: +1 step on the unarmed combat chart, which is 0.5[1d6], or +1.75 damage per hit on average.
• Improved Martial Arts: +1[1d6], or +3.5 damage per hit on average.
• Vorpal Strikes: +100 damage on a natural 20, or +5 damage per hit on average. Plus, it will sometimes instantly kill enemies once you get them under 1000 HP and breaks zombie DR.

The only drawback of Vorpal Strikes is that it requires 23 Wisdom, which may be hard to get for some builds.

[Requimatic]

• Monk Past Life Feat: +1 step on the unarmed combat chart, which is 0.5[1d6], or +1.75 damage per hit on average.
• Improved Martial Arts: +1[1d6], or +3.5 damage per hit on average.
• Vorpal Strikes: +100 damage on a natural 20, or +5 damage per hit on average. Plus, it will sometimes instantly kill enemies once you get them under 1000 HP and breaks zombie DR.

The only drawback of Vorpal Strikes is that it requires 23 Wisdom, which may be hard to get for some builds.

Taking both would mean 5.25 damage on average, without needing to rely on RNG for the Vorpal effect to happen.. which, by the time enemy health was low enough for it to be useful, if a caster is around, they're going to just nuke and be done. Probably well before the 1000 mark, considering how hard they can hit these days. But if you're soloing, then yeah, it'd be worth it.

Breaking zombie DR, though.. how relevant is that in current content? Seems that one could just as easily equip a pair of Disrupting kama and have at it while staying centered. I haven't been to anything in U21 though, so I can't speak for that content.

I dunno! I'd like to take both OC and VS, but apparently the margin of damage between say 36-40 STR is pretty massive on red named, somehow, despite it only accounting for 2 damage per strike (before multipliers, etc.). I could manage a build with both, but it'd require at least a +4 tome in either STR/WIS.

Bleh. The amount of stuff Monks (and Rogues, too, seemingly, for a competent Assassin/Trapper build) have to juggle to perform well is overwhelming when you're limited in the tome/funds department(s).

What it boils down to is: I want to take OC for the obvious massive increase in damage, but I don't want to destroy my Monk DCs in the process.

[Munkenmo]

What it boils down to is: I want to take OC for the obvious massive increase in damage, but I don't want to destroy my Monk DCs in the process.

Dump Con.

You're going to be running around with improved evasion, 20+ dodge, add in earth stance which gives con and decent prr.
You could shed a point from dexterity and still qualify for all the twf feats.


I couldn't tell how many build points you had from the op, so assuming 32points + your tomes:

18base str+3 levels +2 tome = OC
15base dex+2 tome = feat pre reqs met
9con = good enough.
17base wisdom + 3tome + rest of levels.

Con is not the important stat it once was, my monk is a bladeforged with 11base con, at cap I'm sitting on over 900hp in gmof

[Requimatic]

Dump Con.

You're going to be running around with improved evasion, 20+ dodge, add in earth stance which gives con and decent prr.
You could shed a point from dexterity and still qualify for all the twf feats.


I couldn't tell how many build points you had from the op, so assuming 32points + your tomes:

18base str+3 levels +2 tome = OC
15base dex+2 tome = feat pre reqs met
9con = good enough.
17base wisdom + 3tome + rest of levels.

Con is not the important stat it once was, my monk is a bladeforged with 11base con, at cap I'm sitting on over 900hp in gmof

Whoa, people are dumping CON these days? That's news to me. Before my Monk's TR, before it was even 20 (it was 18? at the time I believe), I had some angry Cleric message me after an E-Shroud run because I died to 5? blades spawning on top of the melee when all the devils were killed in one spot during P4, before Harry dropped. So I was under the assumption that CON was still pretty important. I guess no so much now compared to 2009, before the first expansion.

But a bit over 900HP is pretty respectable. That'd work fine for me. But since my OP, I managed to get +3 tomes across the board, and TRed once. With that.. if I dump CON a bit I could actually manage a build that had all three OC, VS, and IMA. From stats, I'd be at a -2 DC (-4 WIS; -2 at creation and -2 from levels being put in to STR intsead) on Monk DCs without counting gear or EDs at all.. which would even out if I took the Tactician ED feat.

I think I might give that a try. If not this life, on my next.. at which point I could put the +2 points from it in to CON.

[Snarglefrump]

Taking both would mean 5.25 damage on average, without needing to rely on RNG for the Vorpal effect to happen.. which, by the time enemy health was low enough for it to be useful, if a caster is around, they're going to just nuke and be done. Probably well before the 1000 mark, considering how hard they can hit these days.

I think you misunderstand how vorpal works (alternately I misunderstand what you're trying to say, in which case I apologize). On a roll of 20, monsters with less than 1000 HP die instantly, but that's just the gravy. On a roll of 20, monsters with more HP take 100 damage instead; that's the meat and potatoes. You don't have to wait for the monster to have less than 1000 HP for Vorpal to have a useful eff