Haunted Halls of Eveningstar XP

[Grimlock]

[QUOTE=sephiroth1084;5266451]Yes, loot is a concern, but so is XP, and with Epic True Reincarnation representing the bulk of DDO's "end game" at this point, XP is going to trump loot, if for no other reason than the loot eventually gets obtained, or something better comes along, while you're going to need tens of millions of XP if you really intend to work on the ETR hamster wheel. If players were running from 1-28 and staying there, XP would be not quite as important, but that's not the case.

I must disagree with you here Seph. There is an ample amount of XP to go around from 20-28. So much in fact I have yet to ETR on my main completionist and have been able to max out my PrimalSphere karma, and over 4 million karma for the martial sphere with 400k or so also in Divine for purposes of twisting Divine Might. That journey took maybe a month and change with very little quests being repeated aside from VoN 3 for seal farming, and VoN 5 for shards. I do not find myself grinding the same quests over and over again like we used to do before the introduction to Forgotten Realms. I do not see any issues with going from 20-28 and doing any more grinding than some do while leveling heroic lives.

Do I think the Epic XP/quest ratio is utter **** compared to Heroic XP/quest? Yes. Do I think we need to make this the main topic as opposed to selecting new content or loot? No. Our focus should be turning the development team away from the abysmal Three Barrel Cove trash on to more Forgotten Realms high level content. This constant mistake of re-inventing the wheel like they did in the Gianthold Epic quest line is a waste of man hours that could be spent fleshing out NEW content rather than playing the same quests over and over again while giving mobs more hit points and ED's.

The concerns people have are loot, XP, Commendations of Valor, favor (to a lesser degree), and enjoyment. The last of these will draw players to repeat a quest a few times, but after a while, repeating static quests loses a lot of its luster--you know what's going to happen, which makes the challenges less challenging, unless you move to a higher difficulty level (and for most players, running EE just isn't enjoyable), or develop a new goal (like how fast you can complete the quest). XP remains the enduring factor--look at what players run when Heroic TRing...it's not quests for loot, they already have that stuff, and it's not often their favorite, or most memorable quests, but rather the best XP/min quests, because their goals have shifted from seeing what the next level holds, to acquiring their past lives, or getting back to cap to hit epic content again (to work on loot, or ETRing).

Again we differ in our opinion of how the game should work. Rather than make TRing easier by drastically increasing the XP/min I feel as if they should develop new content to keep you playing those higher level quests rather than 'ding' at 28, then Epic TR only to pick up a crappy past life feat that provides a slight bonus to gameplay that is more of a "nice to have" than it is a necessity. I do not agree that a majority of players spend their time racking up Epic past lives over and over again. I would venture a guess to say a majority of the player base might Epic TR once - maybe twice then call it good and farm out gear and optimize their character(s) as best they can.

On top of that, the last look we had at the loot from Haunted Halls still left much to be desired--it appeals to only a very small niche of the community, which further limits the longevity of the drive to run the quest for its loot.

I agree with you entirely. I hope the new(?) loot dev will step up his game and come up with some fresh ideas as an alternative to the Comm. system.

It could be an awesome quest, but if it's taking an hour plus to complete, and the XP is terrible, and the loot is undesirable, it's not going to get run very often, which I believe is a waste of such an ambitious and unique project.

All of this is true with the exception that people will run it to get a completion and hopefully a massive quest arc end reward + saga completion.

[Thrudh]

Uh...go read what you just wrote again.

You skip having to run each at-level quest 3+ times...by rerunning the biggest XP quests available, which you've probably been running since level 21 or 22, every day. So, you replace running a "fresher" quest by repeatedly running quests worth 2-4 times as much XP every day, and quests which we've had to run for 4 years.

Now go read what you wrote again. You said we have to repeat every epic quest 3 times, and it's too grindy.

Running ONE high-exp quest a day is not grindy... I can go from 20-28 in about 3 weeks, so in those 21 days, I run VON 5 seven times, VON 3 seven times, and Wiz King seven times. One quest a day that's a little bit boring (All three of those are still in my favorite quests list though). I do those in an off-destiny too...

The rest of time, I run whatever I want, in my favorite destiny...

So not a grind.

You're not forced to run all epic quests 3 times each to level from 20-28...

[Thrudh]

I must disagree with you here Seph. There is an ample amount of XP to go around from 20-28. So much in fact I have yet to ETR on my main completionist and have been able to max out my PrimalSphere karma, and over 4 million karma for the martial sphere with 400k or so also in Divine for purposes of twisting Divine Might. That journey took maybe a month and change with very little quests being repeated aside from VoN 3 for seal farming, and VoN 5 for shards. I do not find myself grinding the same quests over and over again like we used to do before the introduction to Forgotten Realms. I do not see any issues with going from 20-28 and doing any more grinding than some do while leveling heroic lives.

This.

I do not agree that a majority of players spend their time racking up Epic past lives over and over again. I would venture a guess to say a majority of the player base might Epic TR once - maybe twice then call it good and farm out gear and optimize their character(s) as best they can.

This again.

Both heroic and epic TRing is very front-loaded which is nice... 2-3 heroic TRs gets you 80% of the benefits, 3-6 epic TRs gets you 70% of the benefits.

What they really need is awesome rare loot to keep the powergamers busy. People ran epics all the time when the cap was 20 and no needed exp searching for shard/seals/scrolls.

[sephiroth1084]

I must disagree with you here Seph. There is an ample amount of XP to go around from 20-28. So much in fact I have yet to ETR on my main completionist and have been able to max out my PrimalSphere karma, and over 4 million karma for the martial sphere with 400k or so also in Divine for purposes of twisting Divine Might. That journey took maybe a month and change with very little quests being repeated aside from VoN 3 for seal farming, and VoN 5 for shards. I do not find myself grinding the same quests over and over again like we used to do before the introduction to Forgotten Realms. I do not see any issues with going from 20-28 and doing any more grinding than some do while leveling heroic lives.

Do I think the Epic XP/quest ratio is utter **** compared to Heroic XP/quest? Yes. Do I think we need to make this the main topic as opposed to selecting new content or loot? No. Our focus should be turning the development team away from the abysmal Three Barrel Cove trash on to more Forgotten Realms high level content. This constant mistake of re-inventing the wheel like they did in the Gianthold Epic quest line is a waste of man hours that could be spent fleshing out NEW content rather than playing the same quests over and over again while giving mobs more hit points and ED's.

Remember, the topic for this thread is the XP for Haunted Halls, for which there is a concern about it being too low, and and my reply was sparked by a comment from a dev about thinking that 60,000 XP for 20 minutes of game time in a level 26 quest was perhaps too much, and that it should be scaled downward if that's shown to be the case for more than just the uber power gamers.

Look, if XP were made to be a non-issue in that with most quests being standardized to about the same XP/minute, which should mostly shake out to being fairly balanced as easier quests will tend to be faster, in turn yielding less total XP, players will have a little more freedom in running the quests they like. I've seen plenty of quests that I enjoy get passed by when leveling because no one wants to run them, usually because they are both too difficult and not worth enough XP to justify the time spent running them.

Rebalancing XP properly doesn't necessarily take away from development of other facets of the game--it would likely be different people working on it.

Anyway, we're not going to dissuade the devs from epicifying 3BC. Something you have to realize about the development here, is that most of the stuff is underway to some degree before we ever hear about it, and Turbine will bend only so far regarding an idea they have. 3BC is coming, whether some people like it or not. All you can do is try to direct that development a little with some constructive comments for making the whole thing better than it is currently.

As for giving epic status to existing quests...while I'd prefer all new content as well, I imagine it takes for less time and energy to bump something to epic than it does to create something brand new. That, I suppose, means more time spent on other stuff. I happen to like Gianthold enough that the addition was welcome.

Again we differ in our opinion of how the game should work. Rather than make TRing easier by drastically increasing the XP/min I feel as if they should develop new content to keep you playing those higher level quests rather than 'ding' at 28, then Epic TR only to pick up a crappy past life feat that provides a slight bonus to gameplay that is more of a "nice to have" than it is a necessity. I do not agree that a majority of players spend their time racking up Epic past lives over and over again. I would venture a guess to say a majority of the player base might Epic TR once - maybe twice then call it good and farm out gear and optimize their character(s) as best they can.

Sure, of course they should develop new content, but what we've seen in the game is that new content that offers ****** rewards doesn't get run. When loot gets out-classed, if the XP is no good, the content goes unused. Look at the LFMs up most of the time--very few are for quests that offer poor XP, especially with so much of the named loot from quests of the past year or so becoming obsolete due to the random loot gen changes.

The CoV thing needs working on, too, as it works directly against the primary leveling mechanic of the game--XP, but adding an additional gate that appears arduous to many folks.

Now go read what you wrote again. You said we have to repeat every epic quest 3 times, and it's too grindy.

Running ONE high-exp quest a day is not grindy... I can go from 20-28 in about 3 weeks, so in those 21 days, I run VON 5 seven times, VON 3 seven times, and Wiz King seven times. One quest a day that's a little bit boring (All three of those are still in my favorite quests list though). I do those in an off-destiny too...

The rest of time, I run whatever I want, in my favorite destiny...

So not a grind.

You're not forced to run all epic quests 3 times each to level from 20-28...

I don't want to be running the same quests every week for a month, and I'm not alone in that. You don't have to do that when running through a heroic TR. Why do you bother with VoN 3, VoN 5, and Wiz-King so much? Because they offer extraordinary XP/minute (or at least total XP), and you enjoy the quests, but if other quests were offering comparable XP, you'd have more options there, and wouldn't be looking at so much repetition. You may not feel it's a grind, but many people do and largely for this very reason. If they spend their time running different quests, and not wanting to repeat stuff, leveling takes much longer, and repeating quests 7 times, even spread out over a few weeks, becomes kind of a drag.

If you don't want to repeat the super-XP quests over and over again, then you do have to repeat at-level quests 2-3 times each to level. You can't argue that my point isn't valid when you're demonstrating a corollary to it.

[BOgre]

<<all good points>>

I hate the fact that 90% of the time I try to give +1's, I get a message saying "You must spread it around". Anyhoo, I'm saying I agree with you completely, except for one minor niggle:

Look, if XP were made to be a non-issue in that with most quests being standardized to about the same XP/minute,

Instead of a standardized XP/minute, I'd prefer a scaling XP/quest. As in, you need X number of at-level quests to advance to the next level, X being constant from 1-30. I'd even accept a gentle slope from 20-30. That way XP COULD be a non-issue.

[Therrias]

One additional kind of gating that isn't mentioned here is flagging. I know it's not as important for What Goes Up, but it is relevant when looking at the differences in XP between quests like Shadow Crypt (requires flagging each run, but can be "red boxed"), Litany (requires flagging and cannot be "red boxed"), and What Goes Up, which needs to be flagged once to unlock it. Another mechanic to think about in this regard is the one used in quest advancement chains, like Catacombs and Delera's. If there are gates outside of the quest, then they should be worth more experience commensurate with the strength of the gate.

If that is true, then the base XP on Caught In The Web should be the highest in the game by a long margin.

[Sokól]

If that is true, then the base XP on Caught In The Web should be the highest in the game by a long margin.

I agree CitW needs a serious xp buff, I actually like this raid excluding the worm part...

we got 17 raids and only 2 or 3 got decent xp!

[sephiroth1084]

I hate the fact that 90% of the time I try to give +1's, I get a message saying "You must spread it around". Anyhoo, I'm saying I agree with you completely, except for one minor niggle:

Look, if XP were made to be a non-issue in that with most quests being standardized to about the same XP/minute,

Instead of a standardized XP/minute, I'd prefer a scaling XP/quest. As in, you need X number of at-level quests to advance to the next level, X being constant from 1-30. I'd even accept a gentle slope from 20-30. That way XP COULD be a non-issue.

Well, what I mean is scaling XP by quest level, where all the quests of a given level have roughly the same XP/min, and the total XP for all quests of a given level add up (on hard) to just a little shy of the XP needed for the next level--you'd have some room to repeat a couple of quests, or do some explorers, or just run other stuff to gain your level on hard, while elite would basically get you the next level once and done, and normal would require quite a few more completions. Or, if the devs really want us repeating more, it could be closer to 2 runs of each quest to get to the next level for hard, a bit less on elite, and a bit more on normal.

My overall point is that if we didn't have disparities like one quest that takes 40 minutes to run and grants only 20,000 XP (500 XP/min) and another quest of the same level taking 20 minutes to run and granting 80,000 XP (4,000 XP/min), we'd probably see some more diversity in the LFMs. If they both granted about the same amount of XP/min, but one stayed 40 minutes (probably bumped up to 120,000 XP), and the other 20 (dropped to 60,000 XP), it would be a choice between which quest you prefer running, because the XP would be a non-issue: you could run the short quest twice to get the same amount of XP as the long quest, rather than what we have in the game currently, where running the shorter quest twice almost always yields 50% to 200% more XP than running the longer quest once.

The problem is that the devs are far too conservative about their XP assignments in some cases. Honestly, I think what needs to happen is the team should offer some rewards for people completing quests on Lamannia and tracker their completion times, then assign XP to all the quests in the pack, and 2 or 3 times a year, a pass should be done on quests of a given level or levels, based on whatever metrics the devs have available to them (maybe encourage players to post their completion times for quests regularly) and then rebalance XP again based on the time it's taking the average player some months later. For instance, VoN 3 used to be a 40+ minute quest, but now it's a 10-20 minute quest, even on EE for some groups. Meanwhile, VoN 5 is almost always going to be at least 40 minutes, and is often longer, unless you're running with an excellent group that can split up well (that is, get everything done without too much confusion or centralized direction; no one standing around), and is often an hour, which means that it should have 2-3 times as much XP as VoN 3 (and probably even more than that due to it requiring flagging and the added hassle of picking up 11 other people instead of 5 others, plus the traps, Wis, and Str requirements).

[Kambuk]

Wouldn't it be great if the best XP in the game came from running a fun quest as a full group with everyone splitting up and doing different optionals?
With a dragon fight at the end?
And if the odd person died and needed to be rescued the XP/Min would still be OK so nobody would get too stressed about it?
It would promote grouping and teamwork rather than people just soloing the best XP/Min quest they can handle which is what is tending to happen now.

If the base XP was up near 40-50K that would be this quest.

Where the XP is now it will get run for loot for a while and then for favour only.

Kambuk

[Chai]

Now go read what you wrote again. You said we have to repeat every epic quest 3 times, and it's too grindy.

Running ONE high-exp quest a day is not grindy... I can go from 20-28 in about 3 weeks, so in those 21 days, I run VON 5 seven times, VON 3 seven times, and Wiz King seven times. One quest a day that's a little bit boring (All three of those are still in my favorite quests list though). I do those in an off-destiny too...

The rest of time, I run whatever I want, in my favorite destiny...

So not a grind.

You're not forced to run all epic quests 3 times each to level from 20-28...

More like groundhogs day.

By now they should be able to datafarm these older quests for average completion time and balance accordingly. Looks like theres an initiative to do so but its happening in bursts rather than all at once.

[Ivan_Milic]

We'va tracked some 25-30 min completion times on lamannia. But as Knockback has already posted, most of the XP is in the optionals, not the base. This makes sense for HH because most of the dungeon is optional, not required for completion.

If you spend 2 hours in there doing optionals, you'll get XP\min similar to other dungeons.

And if you do the optionals more times will you get 0 xp?
Like I get in tor for dragons on ee.

[Ivan_Milic]

I agree CitW needs a serious xp buff, I actually like this raid excluding the worm part...

we got 17 raids and only 2 or 3 got decent xp!

What worm?

[harry-pancreas]

I have zero concerns about the xp in the game. Getting XP has never been a challenge - even with Epic content.

I think our concern with XP in Haunted Halls, or other quests is not nearly as important as the content itself that is being rolled out. The justification for doing a quest is and always has been about the loot. So far, I am not impressed with what they are planning on rolling out in U21 - although I am sure we have only seen just a small portion of what they plan to roll out.

Let's face it. Turbine will constantly have analysts and people pouring over XP/quest data and continue to search for that sweet spot to keep people in the game as much as possible. Just like in Vegas - the more you keep playing the more money they make. And I really don't care as long as the new content keeps getting rolled out, and there is the enticing element of new loot introduced to the game. Hopefully Turbine will keep rolling out more Forgotten Realms content, which certainly saved this game from an early death.

I also want to add in a personal thank you for getting Ed Greenwood on board. For those of you who do not know Mr. Greenwood is the very heart and soul of Forgotten Realms and after meeting him in person last year at Gencon is an extremely kind soul. He has poured his entire life into building out a world we get to experience first hand. I would love to see Ed do more with DDO as perhaps an outside consultant who can review content and discuss future quests/story arcs and how they can be rolled out to build upon existing content. Since hitting Epic's and taking my main toon through FR I actually find myself reading the flavor texts, where previously in Eberron I could care less what was going on.

as a former FR fan i tell you this advice: read about eberron, read the flavour texts of some places (lordsmarch, GH, reaver's refuge, the vale, shavarath) and you will love it.
Just felt like recommending what i did to another fellow "reader"

[soloist12]

What they really need is awesome rare loot to keep the powergamers busy. People ran epics all the time when the cap was 20 and no needed exp searching for shard/seals/scrolls.

Get out of my head!