The Half-Track: a Self-healing DEX-based Tank

[geoffhanna]

---

The Half-Track: a Self-healing DEX-based Tank

Halfing Wizard 17/Rogue 3

---

Unlike most of my builds, this one has a single purpose: tanking. All of the other stuff is there to promote the ability to dive into a batch of bad guys and hold their agro, with or without a healer.

Tradeoff discussion

• Being a Halfling means losing the DPS advantages of a Strength build, but in return the build gets greater AC, excellent reflex saves, and the Dragonmark of Healing.
• Having Evasion means giving up on heavy armor's PRR but it more than pays off in elemental damage avoidance.
• Being a 17th-level wizard means less hitpoints but in return you will always be Hasted, Raged, Blurred, Displaced and Fireshielded, and you will be fighting in a cloud of Acid Rain or Ice Storm. The Eldritch Knight enhancements make for one badass wizard.
• Damage was so minor, even when in a crowd, that I could keep myself up just using the Halfling dragonmarks. I could even get rid of my own Negative levels! I have an endless mug of rum too but often forget to use it; the dragonmarks are usually enough.

Epic Discussion

I feel like this character's best main destiny would be Unyielding Sentinel. Then probably Legendary Dreadnaught. The normal wizard destiny Magister doesn't have much for this build beyond spell points. The normal rogue destiny Shadowdancer seems meh too, maybe because this is not a normal rogue. Twisting Healing Spring and Rejuvenation Cocoon on this character should apply more than enough additional self-healing to stay up through the Epic levels.

Stats as of level 20:

This was not a well-geared character, she just grabbed whatever was available in her completionist TR bank. Some of it is nice (+8 CON and DEX) but others not so much, for instance I don't think she had anything on her head at all. She has 10 past lives, and those certainly help, but most of these stats are pretty raw and will only get better as one applies the right equipment.

But even so, they (the stats, not the equipment) are pretty good for level 20:

STR    10/22
DEX    22/44
CON    16/32
INT    16/26
WIS    10/15
CHA     8/13

HP       471
BAB       20
DblStrike  5

Fort      31
Reflex    39
Will      27

AC        73
PRR       22
Dodge      0 
Max Dodge 12

SP      1555
Pos	 139 
Neg       61
Force    113
Repair    57
Sonic     44
Other     83

Skills

Balance        6/51
Concentration 23/55
Heal           5/17 
Spellcraft    23/39
UMD           23/32 **

* I put 18 ranks into Search which was a mistake. They should have gone into Heal, meaning the Positive spellpower would be higher too.

** I am torn between pumping up UMD as I did, versus Intimidate which I did not, and often missed having on this character. If you are going to be tanking a lot, take Intimidate. If you are going to be backup healing a lot, take UMD.

Feats

Combat Expertise
Empower
Enlarge ***
Extend
Improved Critical Pierce
Improved Mental Toughness
Least Dragonmark of Healing
Maximize
Mental Toughness
Weapon Finesse ***

*** Enlarge was used but only rarely. Weapon Finesse needed to apply DEX damage mod to rapiers. Other combinations to consider: Dodge + Mobility for dodging percent, or Shield Proficiency + Shield Mastery for PRR

Halfling Enhancements

Halfling Luck (x3)
Dexterity (x2)
Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (X3)
Lesser Dragonmark of Healing
Break Out the Leaches
Greater Dragonmark of Healing

Assassin Enhancements

Knife in the Darkness
Dagger in the Back
Shiv (x3)
Poison Strikes (Ice Chill)

Eldritch Knight Enhancements

Eldritch Strike
Spellsword (acid)
Spellsword (flame)
Spellsword (shock)
Toughness (x3)
Battlemage (x3)
Improved Mage Armor (x3)
Improved Shield (x3)
Light Armor Proficiency
Arcane Barrier (x3)
Dexterity (tier 3 & tier 4)
Critical Accuracy
Critical Damage
Medium Armor Proficiency ****
Shield Striking (x3)
Tensor's Transformation
Eldritch Shield
Still Spell (x1)
Doublestrike (x3)
Eldritch Tempest (x3)

**** Not sure how this got here since an Evasion build is never going to wear medium armor. I may have had to take it to satisfy a point-send requirement? Or maybe I just screwed up and should have put these two points elsewhere.

---

So, what did I miss? There's always something that can be tweaked to make the build better. Thoughts? Comments?

[WanderingGrump]

It would be interesting to see what your end game saves were geared out but I suspect they would be far lower than you would really want for a tank. I suspect that Wizard build will end up with between 700 and at most in the low 900s as far as HP goes but what would be worry some to me would be what your final saves would end up. If you managed to get them in to 50s I would be surprised and it's amazing just how much damage migration you can get over a lousy 5-10 points on your saving throws. I do know a few people running Dex based tanks and they tend to be either Monks or Thief Acrobats (12 Rogue/6 Monk/2 Paladin or 8 Rogue/6 Monk/6 Paladin). Going that route lets you not waste a feat on Weapon Finesse as you can get there with Enhancements, plus you get access to the Shintao ability Ki-Shout which is a concentration to intimidate mechanism.

I have a Wisdom based Monk that has far more Dex than Strength and in Unyielding Sentinel I top out at 1050HP moderately geared and my saves are in the upper 50s to upper 60s with Reflex hitting 64. That's enough to easily tank the Reaver in FoT and the toon generally keeps healed with just Rejuvenation Cocoon and the odd self heal scroll (it's a H-elf with the cleric dillie).

A guild mate is running a Dex based Thief Acrobat that hits between 1100-1200HP with saves in the upper to mid 70s and finds that more than an adequate to tanking.

Also if your going to make a 3 level splash why not go Monk and light path for self buffing Align the Heavens and the bonuses to saves over Rogue. You would still get evasion and the ability as well to give yourself Grasp of the Earth Dragon's Anti-stun effect isn't something to sneeze at either for tanking bosses. You'd loose the rogue skills but gain far more I think given your stated goal of tanking.

Some things to ponder.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I have made myself some strange tank builds but i have to say, nothing i see here screams tank... Nothing at all.

Your hp, prr, saves, dodge, hate amp. are all on the low side. You use positive self healing so no wraith form for incorporability. Self healing is nice, but halfling dragonmarks are expandable and on this build you will have very little use out of lessers and leasts. You will see results from your ac in EH content, tho you will never be able to compete with defenders. In EE your ac "might" get you 15-20% miss chance with considerable investment, don't expect more.

Displacement is one of the best overal defences atm yes, but relying on it as only real defence is not something a tank should do. There are mobs with true seeing and most if not all raid bosses have it as well.

Your hate generation seams like the biggest problem. Consider an army of earth stance dps monks you need to deal with. It's not easy to maintain agro with 0 hate amp. It has been working for me on my gaxe toon by cycling insult+adrenaline, intollerant blows, furry epic moment all the time. It works ok but relaying on clickies interupts your attack sequence a bit frequently. And still i managed to loose agro in a few occasions which was not a problem since i have >90 intim. Without intim... i could have found myself in an awkward situation.

And now i hear they are about to nerf intolerant blows, if you are going s&b don't count on beeing able to keep agro.

You can invest in intim, but on a cha dumped toon, you might have a hard time getting it high enough.

I'm not saying it can't work, but bladeforged and monk would make it twice as good there is no doubt about it.

[Teh_Troll]

What is this think meant to tank?

[geoffhanna]

The numbers are low because this is a level 20 character with a random assortment of gear. The build gives up some things because it is Halfling but none of them are AC or saves. Dodge and PRR will require gear. PRR will not match that which can be achieved with Defender stances but ought to be able to match anything else. And the shield helps too, I did not include blocking PRR but there is some.

I have some ideas for a pure rogue Halfling DEX tank (or rogue/monk) but I wanted to try the Eldritch Knight first. I am hoping to generate hate with persistent AoE spells, it has worked brilliantly through the Heroic levels, but I will not know how effective it is in Epics until I try it. I am sure I will still lose agro to super-DPS builds (although I think every tank does if the DPS is super enough).

What I am really looking for here is ideas on how to make this build better.

p.s. She also looks cool

[Teh_Troll]

What I am really looking for here is ideas on how to make this build better.

Don't pretend to be a tank.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

I need to agree with the troll...

[geoffhanna]

or ...

[Teh_Troll]

or ...

Be wrong?

[redspecter23]

If you're looking for ways to improve your character, I have to ask. What difficulty do you plan on playing at?

If the answer is EN and EH, then you don't need to make any changes. You'll be fine.

If the answer is EE, then you'll need to change your character from the ground up and change your build concept. Tanking is both poor and unnecessary in EE.

On to some constructive thoughts.

Drop combat expertise. It's terribly weak both in cost and opportunity cost. With this on, you don't get to use power attack. Power attack also opens up the cleave line. If you're in the middle of a pile of mobs, what better attack to use than cleave, great cleave, eldritch strike over and over again?

Just because you are a "tank" don't throw away DPS that's otherwise not that costly to obtain. Instead of getting into the pile of mobs and simply holding aggro, why not get in there and actually kill them?

Sentinel is a very bad destiny, even more so for an actual tank. Due to diminshing returns on PRR and AC, someone already invested in that gains less than someone that hasn't. Besides a bit of holy and good damage, you gain very, very little here. Dreadnaught offers more defense simply because of the 25% dodge while blitzing. If you're in light armor at end game, you should be able to make full use of that 25%. Don't fall into the Sentinel trap. A blitzing dreadnaught is infinitely more dps than Sentinel AND more defense while blitzing. I'm not saying it feels right, but that's how it is.

I'd recommend Draconic as a good second choice destiny. You know what goes really well with getting in the middle of a pile of mobs and rotating 3 cleaves? Energy Bursting as well. No arcane spell failure here and from level 27+ the Stormhorns goggles with fire power, fire crit and a slot is all you need to make fire draconic work for you.

Halfling and dragonmarks seems decent until you compare it to bladeforged and free reconstruct. Halfling may be a flavor choice you've made, but power wise it just doesn't compare to what you get from bladeforged. More hp, more self healing, power attack bonuses and a +20% damage clickie that also ramps up your energy bursts and heals. Weapon attachment rounds out the amazing set of bonuses here.

Rapier isn't a horrible choice for weapons, especially if you're set on going dex based with finesse. If you can be convinced to go strength based instead, consider bastard swords. You get a decent amount of extra damage from glancing blows. I'm positive that even on a halfling you could swap to a strength base and do more damage than a dex base due to bonuses like rage that add strength bonuses and not dex. Most people would say that adding a level or 2 of cleric/fvs/paladin opens up the amazing divine might line which tips the scale in favor of strength by a large margin.

Hopefully this info comes across as helpful and not disruptive as it's not meant to be negative.

[geoffhanna]

Hopefully this info comes across as helpful and not disruptive as it's not meant to be negative.

Very nice. Thank you.

I was thinking Sentinel exactly for the PRR, but I see your point.

[Teh_Troll]

If the answer is EE, then you'll need to change your character from the ground up and change your build concept. Tanking is both poor and unnecessary in EE.

Can you name ANY situation in EN/EH where a tank adds any value to a group either?

First off . . . this build is no tank. An tank can hold aggro over anything, be very hard to kill, and very easy to heal. I can't see this build holding aggro over anything that isn't terrible.

With that clarified a tank is needed in EE LOB and is nice but not needed in a few other EE situations. In all other difficulties pretty much anything can 'tank' it.

Maddmatt has what looks to be an excellent Halfling Dex-based tank that is actually useful in real content. Start by taking a look there.

[redspecter23]

Can you name ANY situation in EN/EH where a tank adds any value to a group either?

First off . . . this build is no tank. An tank can hold aggro over anything, be very hard to kill, and very easy to heal. I can't see this build holding aggro over anything that isn't terrible.

With that clarified a tank is needed in EE LOB and is nice but not needed in a few other EE situations. In all other difficulties pretty much anything can 'tank' it.

Maddmatt has what looks to be an excellent Halfling Dex-based tank that is actually useful in real content. Start by taking a look there.

It depends on how you define tank and what your goals are. I spent my last few lives as a sword and board "tank" and was completing EN and EH quests with the exact same speed I was completing those same quests on more traditional offensive melee. In DDO terms, tank is not really needed outside of raids. I took it the OP was talking more about a sword and board type character. A defensively minded character that uses a shield. I would not expect the OP to be tanking raid bosses with this toon at all.

A sword and board character can be just as fast at clearing EN and EH as most other tier 2 toons (it won't match a caster or any type or your tier 1 toons, but it works just fine). Pretty much pick up a weapon and swing it at things til they die. All the defensive aspects mean pretty much nothing as the mobs don't hit hard enough or live long enough to matter.

[geoffhanna]

A "tank", to me, is able to gather agro and hold it, from a boss when needed but usually from a group of adds, thereby allowing the rest of the party to select targets for DPS or perform other specific tasks needed to complete a quest. It is a form of crowd control, and as a bonus, one that allows others to get sneak attacks.

There are very few quests in DDO that require a tank. But very many quests where a tank can be helpful. Note that I could say the same thing about most other build templates: ranged attacks, DoT caster, dedicated healer, etc. None required except in rare quests, but each helpful in most situations.

I believe this build will be able to fill this role in level-appropriate quests. When properly geared (and gearing a tank is arduous) I believe it will be able to fill this role in any quest.

But I am an optimist.

p.s. I think dropping combat expertise and enlarge for either (shield proficiency and shield master) or (dodge and mobility) is an improvement. But which?

[redspecter23]

p.s. I think dropping combat expertise and enlarge for either (shield proficiency and shield master) or (dodge and mobility) is an improvement. But which?

Ideally, it would be great to get the shield proficiency for free. Whether this is from splashing a level of fighter/paladin, etc. or by using something like a Madstone Shield/Aegis though that ruins your max dex bonus so tower shields are probably not an option. This is part of the problem I was speaking about when I talked about changes from the ground up. Your build would really benefit from shield mastery and improved shield mastery, but not having the general shield feat from a martial class is a huge penalty as it's another feat lost to take it on your toon.

If you're looking for mobility, which seems to be a bit more beneficial to heavy armor wearers, you can craft it. I had mobility boots of true seeing with yellow and colorless slots that I used on my S&B toon. It filled in some gaps. Definitely not worth a precious feat slot. For your situation, I wouldn't bother going for shield mastery or shield proficiency even though they would be great on the build you're trying to make. You've already stated your goal and your restrictions so work within those paramaters. I'll list what I'm thinking you're after

goals
- must be halfling
- must be dex based
- evasion is needed (light armor max)
- must use finesse (attack and damage)

restrictions
- lower prr potential due to light armor use
- lower AC due to light armor and lack of a defensive tree option (paladin/fighter)
- no shield proficiency without losing a feat for it, less PRR and doublestrike potential as a result
- no dwarven axe/bastard sword which synergizes well with shields due to finesse, no glancing blows
- no cleave, great cleave, overwhelming crit reducing AOE melee. Focus seems to be on spells for damage

So with these goals and restrictions I have to ask, what does 17 levels of caster get you that you NEED to accomplish your goals? What does the 3rd level of rogue add that levels in paladin or fighter wouldn't do, but better? You can fill out the entire useful parts of the EK tree with just 5 levels of wizard. That's the sweet spot for a tank. 7 levels adds some useful spells but what do more levels after that add as far as achieving your goals for this build? Dropping wizard down to 12 or 13, but adding 4-5 levels of fighter or paladin opens up huge options for a sword and board character. As it's not specifically mentioned in your build breakdown, how would say 5 paladin levels negatively affect your goals compared to what you gain?

pros
entire sacred defender tree access to tier 4 (5 isn't really necessary)
extra hp
extra ac
extra threat
defensive stance
shield proficiency to open up shield feats
extra saves from divine grace
fear and disease immunity (well kinda disease immunity, that's a bit wonky)
access to divine might if you choose to go strength build (this ability alone could probably bring your str score up above your dex, making finesse less necessary)

cons
lose access to level 7+ spells many of which start to be DC based for max effectiveness. no necessary buffs at this point
loss of some spell points
not much else

That's how I'm seeing it I suppose. If you want to S&B and dance in an ice storm/wall of fire (which is very questionable dps in EE, even maxed) what are you gaining with those extra wizard levels that pally or fighter doesn't do better? A twisted energy burst puts wall of fire/ice storm to shame in epic levels and you can do that with minimal levels of wizard. You don't even need max/empower for it as it doesn't use them.

[geoffhanna]

I went for all 17 levels of wizard to get the full spell book. The 3rd level of rogue is needed to get DEX mod to damage.

Some paladin would be helpful, no argument, but I feel like I would need 6 levels of it so I'd get defensive stance. So only 11 levels of wizard, capping the build at 6th level spells. Is that a worthwhile tradeoff? I dunno, I'll have to think about it. It's not a bad thought. It's just a very different thought.

[redspecter23]

I went for all 17 levels of wizard to get the full spell book. The 3rd level of rogue is needed to get DEX mod to damage.

Some paladin would be helpful, no argument, but I feel like I would need 6 levels of it so I'd get defensive stance. So only 11 levels of wizard, capping the build at 6th level spells. Is that a worthwhile tradeoff? I dunno, I'll have to think about it. It's not a bad thought. It's just a very different thought.

The tradeoff is something I would do. It really depends how you play the build. I envision it as a melee focused build with caster buffs and a few offensive spells, typically with no save. In my mind, you gain little from the extra wizard levels. That being said, if you play it more like a caster with a shield, then your build makes more sense. I'm assuming this is how you see it. In that case, I would question the need for any sort of weapon and the dex to attack/damage focus. This is why I'm trying to narrow down your personal goals for the build. When posted on an open forum, players can typically tell someone how to make the build more powerful or more efficient, but when it comes to personal flavor choices for any particular build, the community can't help with that. It's whatever you want it to be.

[geoffhanna]

Thinking about it over the weekend, I've come to the conclusion that posting this build as an end game build without actually projecting end game stats and gear was a mistake. It leaves me in a position of defending something that doesn't even exist yet, which is really indefensible.

So, a mistake. My bad.

The consensus seems to be that Eldritch Knight is not end game viable. The whole tree. Except as maybe a splash-in portion of a build that is otherwise drawn from superior enhancement trees.

I am not totally conceding that this build would not work as intended, but I am totally conceding that I have not proved my point. And further, that I won't be, since I am not in the end game right now, and when I am back in I won't be on this build, I'll be modernizing previous end game builds for a strategy fighter, an enchanter, a DPS barbarian, and a DPS tempest assassin.

There is also an implied sentiment in this thread that I am not qualified to comment on any end game build because I am not playing end game. And in truth, I am not currently playing the end game. With emphasis on the word "currently". Somewhere around the time MotU came out I started focusing on my completionist and guild runs exclusively. I feel like the years I spent in end game prior to MotU give me standing to comment, but if you disagree I am not going to convince you.

I do like this build. I'll get back to it eventually, but it is pretty far down the queue.

So there you go. A mea culpa for declaring this to be an end game build without first building it up through the end game. Again, my bad.