Give Us A Reason to Run the New Raids on EE/EH

[SilkofDrasnia]

My vote is to set all raid chest loot % the same for all difficulties:

EN: 1 chest
EH: 2 chests
EE: 4 chests

Shroud did the incentive system right, so just use that going forward. EE is a much bigger jump from EH than HE is from HH, though, so instead of three chests make it four.

EDIT: This assumes the loot is the same on all difficulties, which I think they should be. It should just be way easier to get the loot you want on EE than it is on EH or EN. Significantly, visibly easier. An increased % isn't visible. Two more chests is visible.

This idea seems quite reasonable unlike some of the other ones I have seen here.

Adding a unique augment to EE would be a good enough reason to get people running it if it's decent. N/H/E loot probably has a very negative effect on players who can't handle EE or feel excluded due to people running it in guilds and channels. Turbine probably has numbers on this which is why they're changing to a system that is more casual friendly... unfortunately at the expense of players looking for reasons to run EE. At any rate, adding unbound augments to EE from this list could help perhaps?

Yellow
Healing Amp 30%, min level 28
Doublestrike 10%, min level 28

Blue
DR 20/-, min level 28
Superior Fortification (150%), min level 28

Red
Your weapon's base critical profile becomes 18-20 x3, min level 28
Your weapon gains improved vampirism (1d6) and drains one level on a vorpal hit

Looks OP to me. Even 3 EPL only give 9% doublestrike, that red one would make weapons have a better crit profile than khopesh. About the part in orange explain to me why you feel this is at the expense of peeps wanting to run EE?

Why do you want to run EE and what is the main reason to run EE? Why do you think "players need to look for reasons to run EE"?

I have heard by most people it is for the challenge and for myself that is why I run EE. IS this true or not for others? If you are not running EE solely for the fun of a good challenge why bother?

This whole thread is showing to me you all want to run EE for the loot as you seem to be saying if the loot isn't better than in EH you will "lose out" and not run EE, that's how I read "at the expense of EE players" anyways.

IF you are running EE for better loot why care if the same loot drops on EE, EH and EN? IF you are running EE for the challenge why care if it doesn't really give any better loot. If you are not running EE solely for the challenge factor then it must be for the loot no? So again why care if the same loot drops across the board?

I would like to add that most people complaining about easy mode or easy buttons are EE players/hardcore players yet you want better loot in EE to make the game even more "easy button"?

Wouldn't that cause even more cries of easy mode?

That said why wouldn't EllisDee37 idea be enough.

Seriously I really get the impression this is more about trying to get better loot than any kind of wanting to "prolong endgame and the life of DDO or of making more EE appear in the LFM panel".

Then why not go a step further and give loot for just logging into game?

No one is saying anyone should get loot free and you continually misrepresent the majority of the the people playing the game which are casuals that play EH.

Lets face it people that play EE are in the minority and this is why changes have happened like they have last couple years. Catering to EE players to the detriment of casual players would not be in Turbine interests at all. The game is old and has a declining players base so they need to cater to that larger portion of the player base.

I feel that some of you are misrepresenting a big portion of EE players, and the impact this will have on the game, like myself who don't care if EE loot isn't better than EH and EN loot.

[slarden]

Giving people higher drop rates is enough incentive to run the raids on higher difficulties.

I think making gear exclusive to EE other than maybe 1 or 2 augments is a big mistake for the game. To me shroud was the perfect model because it kept casual players in the game with something to farm on any difficulty they chose. They could start with Normal and then move up to Hard and Elite once they were comfortable with those difficulties, understood the raid and had the gear to contribute well.

Raids like shroud and festivals are important sources of gear for casual players because there are plenty of groups looking for people and the acquisition method is progressive rather than grinding in hopes of a lucky drop. Festivals are 1-2 level cap increases behind so casual players already lost those. FOT is good enough though the grind for gear on EN is much longer than EH compare to shroud, it's still not too bad.

To be blunt the biggest problem with high difficulty raids isn't the difficulty, it's some of the people you encounter. And you are much more likely to encounter problematic people on higher difficulties vs. an EN raid which tends to be very friendly and cordial. If you make gear EE exclusive that is all people will want to run whether they are capable or not. Why send casual players into a raid situation where they are more likely to be trolled.

Turbine already diminished festivals by not keeping the gear up to date. We need a shroud-like raid in the game to keep casual players here and hopefully bring some back. We need the festivals to be up-to-date.

I will note that prior to U14 there were plenty of elite runs of shroud for 2 extra end chests. And hard runs for 1 extra end chest. That was plenty of incentive right there. If anything raids like FOT are almost too easy on EE because you get the gear immediately upgraded rather than having to run 5-12 more raids to upgraded your item (vs. EH or EN). You are done farming for gear in a few weeks and only continue running for COMs to upgrade CITW weapons.

The game is going the direction of EE or forget about it. If you too strongly incent only 1 playing style - you will start to lose some percentage of the other folks. Shroud was so much better of a model because it worked well for all playing styles.

[slarden]

Shroud took years to get that change in. The whole time upto that elite runs were super uncommon even when normal was super easy for the group because time and reward do matter. Elite takes a non trivial amount of time more so it does need more rewards add in chance of failure increasing (ie no rewards) and you have a much bigger need for rewards.

I would say EN: 1 Chest, EH: 2 Chest, EE: 5 Chests if there is no unique loot in EE. If EE has unique loot then the proposed chest layout seems right to me.

EN: 1
EH: 2
EE: 3

300% drop rate is more than enough incentive.

It worked just fine for shroud and many other quests in the game. I am not sure why we want to reward EE any more than it already is when that demographic will be the quickest to complain there is nothing to do because they will be finished farming for gear too quickly.

[Eth]

I think a shroud mechanism would be fine. More end-chests with crafting mats for higher diffs.

Also - I really don't like the named loot dropping only in the gravity room. Move that chest to the end chests in general and add an extra chest for a second chance on named loot, if you complete the gravity room.

Some rare item that only drops on EE like the draconic soul gem would be some nice extra.

[pHo3nix]

EN: 1
EH: 2
EE: 3

300% drop rate is more than enough incentive.

It worked just fine for shroud and many other quests in the game. I am not sure why we want to reward EE any more than it already is when that demographic will be the quickest to complain there is nothing to do because they will be finished farming for gear too quickly.

Actually it's not fine. When 3 chests for elite were introduced in shroud, pugs for elite shroud were "caster only" cause it was basically autowin with dots, usual pugs were hard or more probably normal (at least on cannith). And when ED were introduced there was basically no reason to not run Elite cause you would autocomplete anyway just taking a little longer than doing it on normal/hard.

So unless the new raids are autocomplete on EE (and i think they are not), running EE, especially in a pug, is not going to have a 100% success rate, so the incentive to try EE shouldn't be just a linear increase from EN/EH, it should justify the resources/time/risk of failure.

I'm in a small guild and we don't have guild raids, if i raid i usually join pugs (and pugs do not run EE 100% of the time ), so I'm not asking for EE to be way more rewarding for my personal interests, i just think that's fair for those that regularly run raids on EE.

OP, i'd really like for EE to be way more rewarding (not only raids, quests too), sadly, as you can see from a lot of posts in this topic, people that do not run EE can't accept the fact that those running it got a fair reward for their efforts. So, knowing how turbine handles these kind of problems, if they buff the rewards for EE by a decent margin, they will nerf EE difficulty in the future after a lot of complaints from people that cannot handle EE but want the rewards from EE.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Actually it's not fine. When 3 chests for elite were introduced in shroud, pugs for elite shroud were "caster only" cause it was basically autowin with dots, usual pugs were hard or more probably normal (at least on cannith). And when ED were introduced there was basically no reason to not run Elite cause you would autocomplete anyway just taking a little longer than doing it on normal/hard.

So unless the new raids are autocomplete on EE (and i think they are not), running EE, especially in a pug, is not going to have a 100% success rate, so the incentive to try EE shouldn't be just a linear increase from EN/EH, it should justify the resources/time/risk of failure.

I'm in a small guild and we don't have guild raids, if i raid i usually join pugs (and pugs do not run EE 100% of the time ), so I'm not asking for EE to be way more rewarding for my personal interests, i just think that's fair for those that regularly run raids on EE.

OP, i'd really like for EE to be way more rewarding (not only raids, quests too), sadly, as you can see from a lot of posts in this topic, people that do not run EE can't accept the fact that those running it got a fair reward for their efforts. So, knowing how turbine handles these kind of problems, if they buff the rewards for EE by a decent margin, they will nerf EE difficulty in the future after a lot of complaints from people that cannot handle EE but want the rewards from EE.

I am having trouble with the logic of this post. Three chests is not okay because you think it will mean caster only EE runs? Am I reading this right?

Also you are assuming those against better loot in EE are unable and do not run EE regularly and therefore putting their personal interest first.

Would it not be logical to think the opposite, that those that do run EE regularly would be more tempted to put their personal interest (at least loot wise) first in the quest for phat lootz?

I am pretty sure many that do play EE on regular basis like I do do not care or do it for phat lootz, even though we like phat lootz and are not averse to it.

What EE should do is make it easier/faster to acquire gear than say EH and EN but better? No I don't think so.

Also some food for thought isnt this

if they buff the rewards for EE by a decent margin, they will nerf EE difficulty in the future after a lot of complaints from people that cannot handle EE but want the rewards from EE.

a good argument to not make loot better in EE as in my opinion those that run EE primarily want a challenge?

[Vellrad]

Also some food for thought isnt this a good argument to not make loot better in EE as in my opinion those that run EE primarily want a challenge?

You do challenge once.
After you've done it, there is no need to run it ever again above normal.
Challenge is no inective at all.

[SilkofDrasnia]

You do challenge once.
After you've done it, there is no need to run it ever again above normal.
Challenge is no inective at all.

Really then why do EN or EH? You do it once and you know, been there done that right? Why play the game at all? I mean do each quest/raid once then move on to another game right as it is once and done right?

I mean you should know this with all the posts you make about unskilled casuals making this game "easy button".

You theory about doing it once then just running norm doesn't fly.

[ishr]

EN: 1
EH: 2
EE: 3

300% drop rate is more than enough incentive.

It worked just fine for shroud and many other quests in the game. I am not sure why we want to reward EE any more than it already is when that demographic will be the quickest to complain there is nothing to do because they will be finished farming for gear too quickly.

you can make your subjective evaluation of what is "enough incentive" all you want. the fact of the matter is Elite Shroud is rarely run. that means that the effort greatly outstrips the reward (whatever form that reward may come in). the CITW experiment showed us that loot is the most important component of that reward and as it currently stands, across the board, Elite/EE is almost never run because the reward is not worth the effort. as a result, 300% is NOT enough, and you picked the HIGHEST difference between normal/elite in the game, so for all the other raids this applies even more.

Also you are assuming those against better loot in EE are unable and do not run EE regularly and therefore putting their personal interest first.

Would it not be logical to think the opposite, that those that do run EE regularly would be more tempted to put their personal interest (at least loot wise) first in the quest for phat lootz

I don't play this game for charity, I play it because I enjoy it. Any argument that tries to criticize people (on either side) of being selfish for seeking out their own form of fun is therefore invalid. Guy who likes collecting cosmetic pets is no less entitled to do this than guy who runs EE content to farm out draconic soul gems.

What is NOT okay is trying to deprive other people of their own corner of fun, which EN-exclusive folks are advocating. I don't get why, as an EN player who swears they will never run EE and never associate with EE players, you are so vehemently and ardently opposed to opening up a small area of the game for EE players to chase their own carrot in peace. The only possibility I can think of is either you want to force EE players into your EN runs so you have an easier time riding other people's coattails, or you can't stand the thought that outside your little world someone else is having fun obtaining something you wouldn't ever get anyway because you would never run it regardless of whether it existed or not.

[pHo3nix]

I am having trouble with the logic of this post. Three chests is not okay because you think it will mean caster only EE runs? Am I reading this right?

No, what i meant was that when 3 chests in elite shroud were introduced, you could already easy button it with all casters with dots and basically complete it no fail with a little more time involved. So Elite wasn't really more difficult with the right party, it was just a little more time consuming.

If the new raids on EE scale as everything we got until now, the jump from EH to EE will be pretty big in difficulty/time/resources. Pretty big means pretty much EH is autocomplete while EE requires better skills/builds and the chance of failure is >0%. That's why there should be a pretty big incentive to run them on EE, otherwise you run them once on EE for favor and then drop to farming them on easy mode where failure isn't even an option, you can complete them way faster and you can even shortman them easily. This big incentive had to be different loot or way higher drop rates on EE.

[Ungood]

you can make your subjective evaluation of what is "enough incentive" all you want. the fact of the matter is Elite Shroud is rarely run. that means that the effort greatly outstrips the reward (whatever form that reward may come in). the CITW experiment showed us that loot is the most important component of that reward and as it currently stands, across the board, Elite/EE is almost never run because the reward is not worth the effort. as a result, 300% is NOT enough, and you picked the HIGHEST difference between normal/elite in the game, so for all the other raids this applies even more.

I think this is a social thing, as I have to PuG raids, I don't have the guild size to static a raid, so, my options are limited, but even with that, when I join a shroud, it's commonly enough done on elite, sometimes hard, but with ED's, elite is easy enough to defeat, and the bonus chests are a nice addition. I have also ran a few elite CitW, and I admit, I was really let down that the extra chests did not mean extra chances at the loot, that was just a kill joy to the whole thing. If they revamped CitW to have the extra chests mean extra chances at the loot, I am sure people would run elite far more often.

Truth is, tho, I have been PUGing TOD's on elite, when doing elite was nothing but a e-peen thing, and did not offer squat, people still did it, they still threw themselves at the raid for that elite completion.

I don't play this game for charity, I play it because I enjoy it. Any argument that tries to criticize people (on either side) of being selfish for seeking out their own form of fun is therefore invalid. Guy who likes collecting cosmetic pets is no less entitled to do this than guy who runs EE content to farm out draconic soul gems.

What is NOT okay is trying to deprive other people of their own corner of fun, which EN-exclusive folks are advocating. I don't get why, as an EN player who swears they will never run EE and never associate with EE players, you are so vehemently and ardently opposed to opening up a small area of the game for EE players to chase their own carrot in peace. The only possibility I can think of is either you want to force EE players into your EN runs so you have an easier time riding other people's coattails, or you can't stand the thought that outside your little world someone else is having fun obtaining something you wouldn't ever get anyway because you would never run it regardless of whether it existed or not.

Well that argument works both ways, the people who are doing EN and EH are not playing for charity either, they are playing for fun as well, and having stuff that is deliberately put out of their range is not fun for them.

You are advocating that the people who run EN be deprived of having the same fun as you. Sorry, by your own metrics that's invalid.

So, now, keep that in mind, NO ONE is paying for someone else to have fun, and then rethink of how to approach incentives.

[ishr]

Well that argument works both ways, the people who are doing EN and EH are not playing for charity either.

Yeah... I said that... I feel like we are speaking in circles... the difference being I am saying EE should be allowed a small carrot to chase whereas EN players are saying this is not acceptable, even though the EN players is unaffected by this change.

[Ungood]

Yeah... I said that... I feel like we are speaking in circles... the difference being I am saying EE should be allowed a small carrot to chase whereas EN players are saying this is not acceptable, even though the EN players is unaffected by this change.

No, they ARE affected by your suggestions, which is where the disconnect is.

You are not affected if they can get the same gear from the raid as you can, and your throwing a tizzy fit Now, if they could get better gear and faster then you, you're telling me you would not feel affected, don't make me laugh.

[slarden]

you can make your subjective evaluation of what is "enough incentive" all you want. the fact of the matter is Elite Shroud is rarely run. that means that the effort greatly outstrips the reward (whatever form that reward may come in). the CITW experiment showed us that loot is the most important component of that reward and as it currently stands, across the board, Elite/EE is almost never run because the reward is not worth the effort. as a result, 300% is NOT enough, and you picked the HIGHEST difference between normal/elite in the game, so for all the other raids this applies even more.

.

Of course my opinion is subjective just as you are making numerous subjective suggestions that benefit you.

Shroud is a level 16 quest - the gear isn't as good as it used to be yet I still see shroud runs on a regular basis - mostly elite and hard. Shroud is still run much more than Abbot, TOD, Titan combined. I am sure Turbine has the data and can verify.

Shroud is run on either hard or elite - I haven't seen normal in a long time.

Between U12 and U14 Shroud was run a lot. Guild runs and static groups were almost always Elite or hard with more casual guilds. PUGS were either hard or normal with some elites. I was there and it was working fine.

Right now I run a mix of EE EH and EN raids and I think having vets run EN sometimes is actually healthy for the game. Will anyone ever run on normal if the rewards are so bad compared to EE? Will EE players get bored because they get all their gear too quick from being over-rewarded?

I can't understand why 300% reward is not enough. Here is the thing I run raids on EE and I am not impressed by an EE completion. It's not hard - it just means not letting new and casual players in and it's a very easy completion. If anything the guilds on Sarlona that run their PUG raids on EN EH and EE are doing something more challenging. Certainly it is much better for the community as a whole.

The problem with CITW was that regardless of difficulty your best chance to get your item was on the 20th list. And the com system grind was ridiculous until FOT came out. Not to mention it's just not that fun of a raid for most people. If CITW had 300% better chance for getting loot on elite that would be plenty and things would be different. There is also an exploit that lets someone looking for favor finish the quest improperly fast and then the whole party doesn't get chests - just completion. I'll never bother with EE anymore after that happened to me twice in a row.

[slarden]

Yeah... I said that... I feel like we are speaking in circles... the difference being I am saying EE should be allowed a small carrot to chase whereas EN players are saying this is not acceptable, even though the EN players is unaffected by this change.

300% increase in reward is more than a small carrot. What you are asking for is an even bigger carrot.

I am not an EN player I run mostly EE quests and EH raids with a mix of EN and EE raids. Pugs are mostly EH and EN. EE FOT raids I join are always invite-only. I haven't seen an EE FOT pug since everyone was using the ledge glitch and even then it was usually invite-only. EE Von 5/6, Chrono and ADQ are fairly easy so those are usually opened to pugs. EE FOT and CITW are usually invite-only.

EN players are not unaffected this by the change you are suggesting because vets will stop or reduce running EN meaning EN raids will have a hard time filling and will be less organized. If you over-reward one playstyle you do impact the other playstyles.

FOT is a great example. Sometimes it is "difficulty up to the group". The other day we had nobody that could tank on EH except me and I was needed for healing. So someone volunteered to tank for first time and made a few gear ED changes to try it out on EN. They were successful and the next time he planned to try tanking on EH. Right now an EN/EH FOT pug is usually some mix of vets, first-timers and casual players. If more vets leave the LFM pool the raiding scene will get worse for casual and new players.

[bloodnose13]

a thought.

maybe every raid in game should have a set of unique auguments in it, 4,5+, each of those auguments unique to certain raid, but to make it even more insteresting each of augs would have more powerful variants for higher difficoulties?

i think that would give a good reason to run and rerun even the older, now less played raids, if there was sometihng in them similar to shroud crafting materials.

[Impaqt]

a thought.

maybe every raid in game should have a set of unique auguments in it, 4,5+, each of those auguments unique to certain raid, but to make it even more insteresting each of augs would have more powerful variants for higher difficoulties?

i think that would give a good reason to run and rerun even the older, now less played raids, if there was sometihng in them similar to shroud crafting materials.

no thanks. Tiered loot is tiered loot.

Not to mention the fact that getting the devs to go back into old raids and add stuff at this point is never going to happen.

[Thar]

Raids have historically been avoided on EE, because for the majority of raids loot has never scaled. Like CITW and FOT, the two new raids are going to be doomed to an EN/EH stomp fest unless you give us a reason, however small (may even be something like the draconic soul gem, except it's something useful) to run EE. As it currently stands EE loot is only trivially better than EN, but by scaling loot turbine can generate lots of interest from the player base to keep coming back to a raid and progressively attempting higher and higher difficulties, all the while purchasing TP for ETR/ITR/TR to improve their toons and other buffs/augments. As it is right now the endgame is simply a cakewalk on EN, with groups formed without regard to ability or strategy. On lamannia the new raids are insanely easy on EN, and this is made even more incredible by the fact that character copy is not working, so these raids are being taken down by gimped toons to begin with. That's all fine and dandy for EN, but for EH and EE please offer some kind of unique challenge coupled with an incentive (unique reward). That incentive doesn't have to be huge, just enough to give us some reason, ANY REASON, to attempt these raids on EH/EE. This small change stands to generate turbine a great amount of revenue from increasing the raid's replay value, and increasing TP purchases for the purpose of improving toons to be able to tackle these harder difficulties, as well as in the form of AS to buy these EE items from each other. The disruption to the casual crowd can be minimized by making the number of EE-unique items small (like only a fraction of the total) and only marginally better than EN (which has always been the case).

The FOT upgrade system is fine where you save comms by having items upgraded on higher difficulties.

to who wanted the 20th completion removed. - veto... this was the only thing that makes DQ and other raids bearable. don't even joke about that.

[SilkofDrasnia]

you can make your subjective evaluation of what is "enough incentive" all you want. the fact of the matter is Elite Shroud is rarely run. that means that the effort greatly outstrips the reward (whatever form that reward may come in). the CITW experiment showed us that loot is the most important component of that reward and as it currently stands, across the board, Elite/EE is almost never run because the reward is not worth the effort. as a result, 300% is NOT enough, and you picked the HIGHEST difference between normal/elite in the game, so for all the other raids this applies even more.

I think the problems with citw and shroud not being run lie elsewhere as they are not run much at all on any difficulty. Same can be said of many other raids.



I don't play this game for charity, I play it because I enjoy it. Any argument that tries to criticize people (on either side) of being selfish for seeking out their own form of fun is therefore invalid. Guy who likes collecting cosmetic pets is no less entitled to do this than guy who runs EE content to farm out draconic soul gems.

I agree, I play it because I enjoy the game and selfishness criticism is invalid for both sides. Thing is though the guy that likes to farm soul gems can keep farming them on EE even if they drop in EH or EN, hell he can farm them on any difficulty. Choosing one difficulty over the other doesn't take away anything from the person that wants to farm them on a different diff than you choose, I am glad you understand about we are "entitled" to enjoy the game!


What is NOT okay is trying to deprive other people of their own corner of fun, which EN-exclusive folks are advocating. I don't get why, as an EN player who swears they will never run EE and never associate with EE players, you are so vehemently and ardently opposed to opening up a small area of the game for EE players to chase their own carrot in peace. The only possibility I can think of is either you want to force EE players into your EN runs so you have an easier time riding other people's coattails, or you can't stand the thought that outside your little world someone else is having fun obtaining something you wouldn't ever get anyway because you would never run it regardless of whether it existed or not.

No EN players are not advocating that at all, what they are advocating is having access to the same gear regardless of what difficulty you choose, with it being perhaps longer to acquire running EN less so in EH and even less so in EE. Everyone having access to the same gear but being able to play on the difficulty they enjoy or are able to handle takes away nothing from anyone and goes to what you said in the part where you speak of the selfishness criticism. I challenge you to quote me anywhere saying I run EN exclusively matey! On that note maybe practice what you preach heh!

I do not run EN. I run HE and EH/EE only. I do not ride anyone coattails and duo most content with my wife and EE when I get a party of 4 or more. As for raids I don't bother running them lower than EH and join EE pugs when I see them and I am not on timer. Ofc there is some content you can solo on EE but I am not counting them.

I will tell you what though since your throwing the selfishness criticism out there, the only ones being selfish here are the entitled EE players that for some reason want to be sure no one but EE players can get certain loot. I run EE quite a bit and I know how selfish some of the EE players can be, just look at the dang marketboards and that is why I farm my EE gear nowadays especially since the RLM ASAH has been introduced.

I think the difference between some of you and some like me is that even though I play EE I know some people that play EN and EH and don't look down on them and even I tend to help them realize running EH is not that much of a big deal and I don't care at all if they get "EE gear". I am able to look past what I want and try to be more objective so I can see what would be "fair" for everyone.


Heh you think about that before throwing bogus claims about me and edging in on personal attacks cause surely I will defend myself from em.

Replies in orange.

No, what i meant was that when 3 chests in elite shroud were introduced, you could already easy button it with all casters with dots and basically complete it no fail with a little more time involved. So Elite wasn't really more difficult with the right party, it was just a little more time consuming.

If the new raids on EE scale as everything we got until now, the jump from EH to EE will be pretty big in difficulty/time/resources. Pretty big means pretty much EH is autocomplete while EE requires better skills/builds and the chance of failure is >0%. That's why there should be a pretty big incentive to run them on EE, otherwise you run them once on EE for favor and then drop to farming them on easy mode where failure isn't even an option, you can complete them way faster and you can even shortman them easily. This big incentive had to be different loot or way higher drop rates on EE.

If you really believe this how do you think better phat lootz exclusive to EE will help? People will just stop running EE, by your argument, when they get what they want? Also I would like to point out you bring up a point I made earlier about EE loots and "easy mode".

Of course my opinion is subjective just as you are making numerous subjective suggestions that benefit you.

Shroud is a level 16 quest - the gear isn't as good as it used to be yet I still see shroud runs on a regular basis - mostly elite and hard. Shroud is still run much more than Abbot, TOD, Titan combined. I am sure Turbine has the data and can verify.

Shroud is run on either hard or elite - I haven't seen normal in a long time.

Between U12 and U14 Shroud was run a lot. Guild runs and static groups were almost always Elite or hard with more casual guilds. PUGS were either hard or normal with some elites. I was there and it was working fine.

Right now I run a mix of EE EH and EN raids and I think having vets run EN sometimes is actually healthy for the game. Will anyone ever run on normal if the rewards are so bad compared to EE? Will EE players get bored because they get all their gear too quick from being over-rewarded?

I can't understand why 300% reward is not enough. Here is the thing I run raids on EE and I am not impressed by an EE completion. It's not hard - it just means not letting new and casual players in and it's a very easy completion. If anything the guilds on Sarlona that run their PUG raids on EN EH and EE are doing something more challenging. Certainly it is much better for the community as a whole.

The problem with CITW was that regardless of difficulty your best chance to get your item was on the 20th list. And the com system grind was ridiculous until FOT came out. Not to mention it's just not that fun of a raid for most people. If CITW had 300% better chance for getting loot on elite that would be plenty and things would be different. There is also an exploit that lets someone looking for favor finish the quest improperly fast and then the whole party doesn't get chests - just completion. I'll never bother with EE anymore after that happened to me twice in a row.

Right on!

300% increase in reward is more than a small carrot. What you are asking for is an even bigger carrot.

I am not an EN player I run mostly EE quests and EH raids with a mix of EN and EE raids. Pugs are mostly EH and EN. EE FOT raids I join are always invite-only. I haven't seen an EE FOT pug since everyone was using the ledge glitch and even then it was usually invite-only. EE Von 5/6, Chrono and ADQ are fairly easy so those are usually opened to pugs. EE FOT and CITW are usually invite-only.

EN players are not unaffected this by the change you are suggesting because vets will stop or reduce running EN meaning EN raids will have a hard time filling and will be less organized. If you over-reward one playstyle you do impact the other playstyles.

FOT is a great example. Sometimes it is "difficulty up to the group". The other day we had nobody that could tank on EH except me and I was needed for healing. So someone volunteered to tank for first time and made a few gear ED changes to try it out on EN. They were successful and the next time he planned to try tanking on EH. Right now an EN/EH FOT pug is usually some mix of vets, first-timers and casual players. If more vets leave the LFM pool the raiding scene will get worse for casual and new players.

Is good to see someone that is looking past their own interests.

The FOT upgrade system is fine where you save comms by having items upgraded on higher difficulties.

to who wanted the 20th completion removed. - veto... this was the only thing that makes DQ and other raids bearable. don't even joke about that.

Aye I am oky with this as things remain accessible to all playstyles with time being the only factor between EN and EE.

[EllisDee37]

the fact of the matter is Elite Shroud is rarely run

What a bizarre claim. This position hurts your credibility.