Give Us A Reason to Run the New Raids on EE/EH

[maddmatt70]

There is already enough "Incentive" for EE.

1: Its more challenging. Isnt this whats really wanted? I see people claim this constantly.... But then we see threads like this pop up. So I'm guessing the challenge really is secondary?
2: Higher XP

3: Higher Drop Rate of named items.

4: the everlasting admiration of all the casual gamers that are in awe at your ability to complete quests on EE!

You are not adding much to the conversation. Pretty obvoius that there has not been much incentive to run elite compared to normal which takes a lot less time to complete then elite. Perhaps you can actually come up with an argument why you think normal should provide far more incentive to run then other difficulties not really seeing but whatever.

[SilkofDrasnia]

There is already enough "Incentive" for EE.

1: Its more challenging. Isnt this whats really wanted? I see people claim this constantly.... But then we see threads like this pop up. So I'm guessing the challenge really is secondary?
2: Higher XP

3: Higher Drop Rate of named items.

4: the everlasting admiration of all the casual gamers that are in awe at your ability to complete quests on EE!

Sounds about right, when our guildies run EE raids it's for the challenge not loot. There have been some people that keep claiming there's not enough incentive because of "unskilled casuals" but I think that has more to do with who you play with and your guild or circle of friends in game.





I feel kind of sorry for those that keep saying this as it indicates to me they need these "unskilled casuals" to do their EE raid runs. Sad indeed!

As for incentives.....

normal: the incentive is less challenge, easier run in a shorter time frame
hard: the incentive is a little more challenge, a little harder to do but a little longer to complete
elite: much more challenge, much harder than normal but takes more time.

Each difficulty has it's advantages and disadvantages beyond that it is more about trying to force people to run how you want them to run for some obscure reasons.

[taurean430]

Sounds about right, when our guildies run EE raids it's for the challenge not loot. There have been some people that keep claiming there's not enough incentive because of "unskilled casuals" but I think that has more to do with who you play with and your guild or circle of friends in game.

I feel kind of sorry for those that keep saying this as it indicates to me they need these "unskilled casuals" to do their EE raid runs. Sad indeed!

I think you are partially correct in that assertion. Perhaps what you're not considering is the sheer number of changes that have lead to player attrition from the vet playerbase. One of the big issues indeed was reward for bigger challenges (Epic Elite). And with that attrition came the vacancies in raid parties.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I think you are partially correct in that assertion. Perhaps what you're not considering is the sheer number of changes that have lead to player attrition from the vet playerbase. One of the big issues indeed was reward for bigger challenges (Epic Elite). And with that attrition came the vacancies in raid parties.

Consider people do not like being told what to do and how to do it... so if there are that many players that can be considered "unskilled casuals" and we try to force them to into playing EE so to speak will that fix the lack of raids in the lfm or lower the attrition rate or will it perhaps increase it?

[taurean430]

Consider people do not like being told what to do and how to do it... so if there are that many players that can be considered "unskilled casuals" and we try to force them to into playing EE so to speak will that fix the lack of raids in the lfm or lower the attrition rate or will it perhaps increase it?

This reads to me like a tantrum. Could you clarify your point please to something I can understand and respond to?

[SilkofDrasnia]

This reads to me like a tantrum. Could you clarify your point please to something I can understand and respond to?

I dunno where your getting tantrum in my post?

If some people do not run EE because they feel it is too hard or they don't have enough play time or etc they wont run it simple as that.

I don't know you or your playstyle so it's difficult for me to explain in a way YOU will understand.

If your a flower sniffer will you let the zergers dictate how you will play the game? If your a zerger will you let the flower sniffers dictate how you play the game?

If you play endgame will you let the TR fans decide for you if you stay at cap or not and vice versa?

The point, which I think was pretty clear, is that people in these forums tend to want to dictate to others how they should be playing the game and having fun and if someone doesn't agree with them then the crackpot theories of why such and such shouldn't be allowed because of XYZ and it hurts the game and is bad for it start up. I wont even go into the veiled insults that invariably start up either.

There already is incentives to run each difficulty, the problem is those in a particular group that like a particular difficulty would like to force others via "incentives" to play how they like it.

You can't force people to be your friends and in the same manner you can't force people to enjoy the game as you do and trying to do so will just run them off eventually.


Personally in pugs I tend to run raids on EH and when I want a challenge I organize a guild raid night and run EE. I do it this way because it's convenient for me and that's how I like it.

Now if others want to run EN only or EE only it is no skin off my back and I wish them well, you surely will not see me trying to start a crusade trying to make them play differently and you surely will not me see me putting them down for it.

[Ivan_Milic]

+6 tomes only on ee (and only chance at +5 on 20th), there, now everyone would want to run it.

[ishr]

There already is incentives to run each difficulty, the problem is those in a particular group that like a particular difficulty would like to force others via "incentives" to play how they like it.

You can't force people to be your friends and in the same manner you can't force people to enjoy the game as you do and trying to do so will just run them off eventually.

Now if others want to run EN only or EE only it is no skin off my back and I wish them well, you surely will not see me trying to start a crusade trying to make them play differently and you surely will not me see me putting them down for it.

Giving better rewards on EE for a greater challenge doesn't "force" anyone to do anything. Everyone can still do whatever difficulty they choose. The only way you will feel "forced" is if you ABSOLUTELY MUST have the minimally better EE reward but refuse to take on more challenge to achieve it. Also, the biggest flaw in your argument is that can be applied in the reverse, under your description, in the current situation, challenge-seeking players are being FORCED into EN. It is effectively an invalid argument. The difference here is that EE offers nothing more in the way of incentives than EN, save for an infinitesimal boost to loot drop rate in exchange for an insanely harder run.

[Kamode_Corebasher]

So I gotta comment here...
This first post of yours is belittling players who pug out (or in to) EE raids and EE quests...then transitions into "Challenge is all that's needed for my community to run in EE".

Sounds about right, when our guildies run EE raids it's for the challenge not loot. There have been some people that keep claiming there's not enough incentive because of "unskilled casuals" but I think that has more to do with who you play with and your guild or circle of friends in game.

I feel kind of sorry for those that keep saying this as it indicates to me they need these "unskilled casuals" to do their EE raid runs. Sad indeed!

As for incentives.....

normal: the incentive is less challenge, easier run in a shorter time frame
hard: the incentive is a little more challenge, a little harder to do but a little longer to complete
elite: much more challenge, much harder than normal but takes more time.

Each difficulty has it's advantages and disadvantages beyond that it is more about trying to force people to run how you want them to run for some obscure reasons.

And then there's this second post, where the last words in your last sentence contradict your sentiment from your above post. This should be kind of a wow moment for you.

I dunno where your getting tantrum in my post?

If some people do not run EE because they feel it is too hard or they don't have enough play time or etc they wont run it simple as that.

I don't know you or your playstyle so it's difficult for me to explain in a way YOU will understand.

If your a flower sniffer will you let the zergers dictate how you will play the game? If your a zerger will you let the flower sniffers dictate how you play the game?

If you play endgame will you let the TR fans decide for you if you stay at cap or not and vice versa?

The point, which I think was pretty clear, is that people in these forums tend to want to dictate to others how they should be playing the game and having fun and if someone doesn't agree with them then the crackpot theories of why such and such shouldn't be allowed because of XYZ and it hurts the game and is bad for it start up. I wont even go into the veiled insults that invariably start up either.

There already is incentives to run each difficulty, the problem is those in a particular group that like a particular difficulty would like to force others via "incentives" to play how they like it.

You can't force people to be your friends and in the same manner you can't force people to enjoy the game as you do and trying to do so will just run them off eventually.

Personally in pugs I tend to run raids on EH and when I want a challenge I organize a guild raid night and run EE. I do it this way because it's convenient for me and that's how I like it.

Now if others want to run EN only or EE only it is no skin off my back and I wish them well, you surely will not see me trying to start a crusade trying to make them play differently and you surely will not me see me putting them down for it.

And to be somewhat constructive with this post, I don't believe adding loot incentives that *may* entice more casual players to make the jump into learning how to contribute and survive EE content as a negative (negative = forcing them to play with us).
And its late and I'm tired and I'm still just gonna post this

[taurean430]

I dunno where your getting tantrum in my post?

If some people do not run EE because they feel it is too hard or they don't have enough play time or etc they wont run it simple as that.

This has nothing to do the original point made in the discussion. We are not talking at all about people that don't wish to run epic elite, due to time constraints, or any other reason. The discussion is focused on people who can, and would like to run epic elite, but do not due to reasons stated in post one in this thread.

I don't know you or your playstyle so it's difficult for me to explain in a way YOU will understand.

I run epic elites, frequently tr, lead raids, do teaching runs, and only do epic hard/norm for xp purposes. Does that help?

If your a flower sniffer will you let the zergers dictate how you will play the game? If your a zerger will you let the flower sniffers dictate how you play the game?

If you play endgame will you let the TR fans decide for you if you stay at cap or not and vice versa?

The point, which I think was pretty clear, is that people in these forums tend to want to dictate to others how they should be playing the game and having fun and if someone doesn't agree with them then the crackpot theories of why such and such shouldn't be allowed because of XYZ and it hurts the game and is bad for it start up. I wont even go into the veiled insults that invariably start up either.

You are wrong. Oh, so wrong man. Nobody in this thread has attempted to force their playstyle onto other people. The whole point of the thread as I've understood it has been that the incentive to run epic elite is absent. And that there needs to be an incentive worth considering. Following that are different interpretations of what that reward should be. Since a change to epic elite difficulty rewards wouldn't affect anyone not willing to run it, I don't get your point. At all... It's why I asked for clarification.

There already is incentives to run each difficulty, the problem is those in a particular group that like a particular difficulty would like to force others via "incentives" to play how they like it.

Could you detail then what you believe these incentives are? That might help...

You can't force people to be your friends and in the same manner you can't force people to enjoy the game as you do and trying to do so will just run them off eventually.


Personally in pugs I tend to run raids on EH and when I want a challenge I organize a guild raid night and run EE. I do it this way because it's convenient for me and that's how I like it.

Sorry, are you suggesting here that since you run in a particular fashion that the game should cater to your style specifically? And if so, isn't that doing what you are suggesting others - are when in fact they are not?

Now if others want to run EN only or EE only it is no skin off my back and I wish them well, you surely will not see me trying to start a crusade trying to make them play differently and you surely will not me see me putting them down for it.

That's the point isn't it... that no one is doing that? What people within this thread are asking for is better reward/incentive to run quests in the game on the most difficult setting. A person running epic elite anything can swap to lower difficulties if they wish. A person running epic normal or epic hard can swap up to epic elite if they feel they can handle it. People still play as they wish to.

The reason I figure you are seeing more and more of these types of threads is due to the imbalance in rewards for running the highest difficutly the game offers. And although I don't agree with some of the suggestions in the thread so far, it's clear by this time that the rewards are unfair by comparison. Something should be done. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

[Impaqt]

I believe this was a "Tongue in Cheek" post...but its a good jumping-off point for me.
Yes, the challenge is wonderful and also the admiration, but how do we get the majority of newer players with character builds that dominate in EH and flounder in EE to make the jump. How do we get these EH players to ask "how do I make my build better" or "what tactics should I be using that will allow my character to survive this or that" ...by loot incentives.

And if there's incentive, the PUGs will fill :-)

Maybe a little T&C.. maybe not. The bottom line is that this is a game for most folks. not a job.

You are not adding much to the conversation. Pretty obvoius that there has not been much incentive to run elite compared to normal which takes a lot less time to complete then elite. Perhaps you can actually come up with an argument why you think normal should provide far more incentive to run then other difficulties not really seeing but whatever.

Sorry matt. I'll try to add more.

the funny thing is, the argument isnt mine to come up with. I'm already on the winning side. this is quite obvious because Turbine got rid of the silly tiered loot. It is you that failed to show turbine the extra work really was worth it. that if they built it, you would come. folks obviously didnt come enough.

on Epic, Normal just doesnt get run very often. the game revolves around Hard difficulty with EE thrown in there for favor and sagas. the gap between Hard and Elite is just too great for most folks.

in the end, adding hundreds of thousands of hit points to trash mobs and raising saving throws exponentially doesnt make quests more fun... Shocking I know.... It doesnt even make them that much harder. Just more tedious to the point where every freakin difficult EE run I see(EE FoT in particular) is filled with self healing Manyshotting 10k monkachers, Arti's and AA's.

Its so dumb. "We want more challenge", but then all the people who want a challenge start playing the toons with the least risk.

Very few people really want more challenge. and those that do, arent concerned about the loot.

[SilkofDrasnia]

This has nothing to do the original point made in the discussion. We are not talking at all about people that don't wish to run epic elite, due to time constraints, or any other reason. The discussion is focused on people who can, and would like to run epic elite, but do not due to reasons stated in post one in this thread.

Oh it has everything to do with it, you are claiming people that can and want to run elite need some kind of special incentive to run on elite. Don't you see how that contradicts itself. Furthermore I do run elite often enough and when my guild and myself do so it's because we want to and we don't need any kind of special snowflake loot to do so. Even if you try and couch it in a different way this is what it comes down too.

I run epic elites, frequently tr, lead raids, do teaching runs, and only do epic hard/norm for xp purposes. Does that help?

So pretty much like myself except I don't bother running EN and don't really do teaching runs (in pugs) even though I pug often enough. I used to lead guild raids every weekend and I am always willing to teach guildies.


You are wrong. Oh, so wrong man. Nobody in this thread has attempted to force their playstyle onto other people. The whole point of the thread as I've understood it has been that the incentive to run epic elite is absent. And that there needs to be an incentive worth considering. Following that are different interpretations of what that reward should be. Since a change to epic elite difficulty rewards wouldn't affect anyone not willing to run it, I don't get your point. At all... It's why I asked for clarification.

I do not believe that I am wrong, I also do not believe the incentive to run elite is gone at all. Elite is meant to be run for the increased challenge and difficulty and that's is it. Elite is like running epics like back when there was no EN and EH but only "epic". If some people need a "special incentive" to run elite then maybe they should look to themselves and think hard on if elite is really for them.

All these "we need a special reward for doing something we want to do already" does affect others as invariably the game will be "balanced" around it, like the cov droprate etc. I will even go one further and say that many that run elite seem to feel those that run EH or EN should be penalized for some reason. I often see the attitude that "unskilled casuals" feel "entitled" to this and "entitled" to that and it's their fault for making the game easy mode... what I am seeing though is a bunch of people that run EE trying to say they feel "entitled" to a "special shiny golden carrot" and then trying to somehow blame casuals if they decide not to run EE because there isn't one past the satisfaction of defeating content at a higher difficulty.

Could you detail then what you believe these incentives are? That might help...

I already did a couple posts back, as I glance back I see that I was in the process of editing that post while you replied to it so maybe you missed it. Beyond the incentives I post in that post we also have loot in tiers EN/EH and EE loot. I really don't think any incentives past that is needed.




Sorry, are you suggesting here that since you run in a particular fashion that the game should cater to your style specifically? And if so, isn't that doing what you are suggesting others - are when in fact they are not?

Did you not read my post at all? I am saying the exact opposite.





That's the point isn't it... that no one is doing that? What people within this thread are asking for is better reward/incentive to run quests in the game on the most difficult setting. A person running epic elite anything can swap to lower difficulties if they wish. A person running epic normal or epic hard can swap up to epic elite if they feel they can handle it. People still play as they wish to.

You say, "People still play as they wish to." yet argue they need a better "reward/incentive" to run elite, do you not see how asinine that is? Your saying people will run as they want to but then say they wont run elite even if that's what they want because there's not enough reward/incentive (shiny special loot) for it. lol

The reason I figure you are seeing more and more of these types of threads is due to the imbalance in rewards for running the highest difficutly the game offers. And although I don't agree with some of the suggestions in the thread so far, it's clear by this time that the rewards are unfair by comparison. Something should be done. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

See I don't agree with this, I don't think there is an "imbalance in rewards for running content at the highest difficulty the game offers" as I feel the reward should be the satisfaction of defeating said content at a higher difficulty period. I do not think this is "unfair". When I run elite it is because 1- I want to 2- I want the challenge of it and 3- I have the time for it. Now if loot is slightly better like the EN/EH and EE tiers system we already have welp ok I don't really have a problem with that, it's a nice bonus but the key word is "bonus".

Likewise if there isn't slightly better loot I also do not have a problem with this as the "bonus" is not why I run elite, I feel elite is there for people that want to challenge themselves and for myself that's all the incentive I need.

See in red

So I gotta comment here...
This first post of yours is belittling players who pug out (or in to) EE raids and EE quests...then transitions into "Challenge is all that's needed for my community to run in EE".

I think you maybe didn't read the whole thread or just didn't understand my post. I am not belittling people that pug EE quest or raids I do so myself often enough. I was agreeing with Impaqt's post.

I think maybe the "unskilled casuals" comment, which was in reference to another post in this thread, confused you. I mention it because the person that brought this up keeps going on and on about unskilled casuals and how everything bad in this game is their fault and this is something I do not agree with at all.




And then there's this second post, where the last words in your last sentence contradict your sentiment from your above post. This should be kind of a wow moment for you.

IF you understand the first part of that post, which I hope I have made clear enough for you now, you will find you the one having a WOW moment.



And to be somewhat constructive with this post, I don't believe adding loot incentives that *may* entice more casual players to make the jump into learning how to contribute and survive EE content as a negative (negative = forcing them to play with us).

I simply do not believe a loot incentive will get them to run EE if they are not interested in EE in the first place.
And its late and I'm tired and I'm still just gonna post this

Yes after some rest maybe you'll read my post and understand it better.

[taurean430]

See in green

In case you weren't aware, I cannot read green text. Mind putting that into another color?

[Ivan_Milic]

See in green

Ugh, why green, its so hard to read.

[taurean430]

Ugh, why green, its so hard to read.

because I have a red/green colorblind deficiency. Nor would I intentionally type a response to someone in a way they couldn't read it.

[SilkofDrasnia]

In case you weren't aware, I cannot read green text. Mind putting that into another color?

Hows red?

Ugh, why green, its so hard to read.

I have this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ylebot-Changes installed so green looks good to me and is easy for me to read.

because I have a red/green colorblind deficiency. Nor would I intentionally type a response to someone in a way they couldn't read it.

Welp believe it or not I am not up to date with every persons physical problems that comes to post in these forums so sorry!

What color would be acceptable to you? Choose one so I don't have to keep editing in a new color.

[ishr]

the funny thing is, the argument isnt mine to come up with. I'm already on the winning side. this is quite obvious because Turbine got rid of the silly tiered loot. It is you that failed to show turbine the extra work really was worth it. that if they built it, you would come. folks obviously didnt come enough.

You have no evidence to support this argument, you use an a posteriori argument to prove causation which is faulty logic, there is much more at play than just loot when it comes to how dev's decide to structure new content. Furthermore, "this is how it's been done" is not a valid argument for why it should continue to be done (kind of the whole reason lamannia exists in the first place). If every new idea was met with the rebuttal "but that's not how it was done in the past, and that proves that we shouldn't try it in the future," there would be no need for feedback.

in the end, adding hundreds of thousands of hit points to trash mobs and raising saving throws exponentially doesnt make quests more fun... Shocking I know.... It doesnt even make them that much harder. Just more tedious to the point where every freakin difficult EE run I see(EE FoT in particular) is filled with self healing Manyshotting 10k monkachers, Arti's and AA's.

Its so dumb. "We want more challenge", but then all the people who want a challenge start playing the toons with the least risk.

I think you are confusing poor raid design with poor loot design. This misses the point of this thread. Nobody is asking for a crappy EE raid, in fact nobody is even talking about changing the CONTENT of the EE version to begin with (by all accounts on lamannia so far the raids themselves are quite fun!). What we are asking for is a MINOR change to the incentive system to encourage players to pursue EE/EH instead of just the normal EN beatdown, and if lamannia is any indication, EN is definitely going to be a cakewalk once this hits live and all the fully-geared, correctly built characters have at it. We aren't asking for EE to be handing out hammers of Thor, we just want a perk here or there, really ANY reason to reward the extra effort. The hope being that ultimately it will give the raid more staying power and maybe even encourage some players to become more invested in the game than they previously were... $$$

Hows red?

HAHAHA changing from green to red for a color blind person! This is either the most cruel mega-trolling I've seen on these forums yet, or you need to read this.

[Ungood]

Gear Scaling with Difficulty is Moronic. Why Turbine gave in and put this in the game, I will never know, all it does is invalidate the lower difficulties, in the same way that Bravery Bonus invalidated doing anything less then elite.

[DogMania]

On lamannia the new raids are insanely easy on EN, and this is made even more incredible by the fact that character copy is not working, so these raids are being taken down by gimped toons to begin with. That's all fine and dandy for EN, but for EH and EE please offer some kind of unique challenge coupled with an incentive (unique reward).

You seem to have forgotten that the build on Lamannia is ALPHA and is not (according to the devs) anywhere near finished. I would wait to see the Beta build before you make this kind of comment.

[blackdoguk]

Myself and others have posted this in Dr Octo's thread but I'll repost here for visibility. I think the credit for the original spark goes to Sirgog. For me there should be an incentive and reward for playing more challenging content - I loved the notion of EE only augments or things in that vein. It's important not as an ego stroking device but as an aspirational goal.

That said I feel strongly that any player who wants to achieve a certain gear set up should not be restricted from doing so just because they don't have 11 EE ready raid buddies. It's important to not to open too wide a rift between hardcore and casual players in terms of power creep. For that reason please heed the request to make the ML of items LOWER on harder difficulties perhaps EE as ML 25 EH as 26 and EN 27.

"Scoff!" I hear you exclaim, but consider the current stretch to 28 (ML of the current raid loot, I believe H Halls is 26 and explorer area 27). That's between 5 and 6 Million xp before we EVEN GET NEAR our new loot. To chalk that up we're running every quest we can before we even get to enjoy our new loot any time we ETR, which, if I'm not mistaken, is the current endgame.

"Well end game loot is end game loot you shouldn't have it at level 24/25/26..." Ever make a greensteel weapon on a heroic character at 20 cap? You did didn't you, and you rightfully enjoyed the fruits of your labour from the von series right through to Amrath. Give us the same bang for buck in the new loot, please.

I'm not arguing for anything but a ML adjustment by difficulty - that way a player who regularly runs EN can obtain exactly the same setup over a bit more time, and once he has then he can shoot for the harder difficulties and rewards. I really hope it's not too late to adjust this Turbine, as it's one of the best ideas I've seen input wise on these forums in some time. I think you disregard it at your own risk.