Proposed DDO Community Guidelines Changes (February 2014)

[geoffhanna]

Personally, I like non-vindictive good-bye posts. Ones that are hateful are already restricted by other rules; you do not need a farewell post ban to deal with the hateful ones.

A thoughtful goodbye hurts no one. They ought to be acceptable.

[Havok.cry]

'The customer is always right'

This statement is wrong. If the customer was always right, I would get paid to shop at any store I went to, rather than pay for stuff.

[Drwaz99]

Personally, I like non-vindictive good-bye posts. Ones that are hateful are already restricted by other rules; you do not need a farewell post ban to deal with the hateful ones.

A thoughtful goodbye hurts no one. They ought to be acceptable.

I do too. I think this is more to stem the responses to the goodbye posts (even the most positive ones). Almost immediately after a person says goodbye, people start trolling.

[Missing_Minds]

Personally, I like non-vindictive good-bye posts. Ones that are hateful are already restricted by other rules; you do not need a farewell post ban to deal with the hateful ones.

A thoughtful goodbye hurts no one. They ought to be acceptable.

I imagine that as much as they want to foster "community" they want to nix any possible flames and dissension before it happens. This gives them clearance to do what they want. It is the same as us telling a government they can't do something, to which the government turns around and makes a new law to say "yes we can."

However, this is one of the few cases where I'm certain they realize it is pointless.

I expect they will continue to do as they have. Lock a thread and forget about passing out infractions to someone who is no longer there.


Look at it this way. On these private gaming forums, they know full well, that some percentage of people are going to be rules lawyers. (face it, it comes with the game.) So to handle and in essence empower these types of personalities, they have created an abundance of rules. When in reality, these.. what? 20 rules? (Hush Steve Martain) can be limited down... 4?

1. Follow the ToS, copyright laws, EULA, etc.
2. Be respectful on the forums and watch the profanity usage. If someone "attacks" you. Report it and ignore the person. It is our job to deal with such, not yours.
3. Do not pad your post count. /like, /signed, /hatethisstupididea, etc. counts as such. Be more verbose about about why if you are inclined to want to treat the forums like Facebook..
4. Advertisements about other businesses and vestments are not allowed. There must be a direct link to DDO, LOTRO, AC, or Turbine Inc. for it to be permissible. Some cases, such as charities, may be given permission but only on a case by case bases.
5. The spirit of the rules are what shall be followed, not the written letter as these are a privately held forum. Our say is final. Any perceived abuse of these forums shall be delt with accordingly.

Ok, so five. *shrugs*

[Cordovan]

Please note that this thread is not an invitation to debate whether you feel moderators do their work well. Stick to the topics of the rules clarifications and revisions.

I see a lot of questions in this thread that can be answered with: Common sense also applies.

very strongly disagree with this one.

I feel like if someone wants to say goodbye to their server, as they have run with them for years, and they find it easier to make a post on the forum rather than sending many people individual tells, why not?

The issue is not someone legitimately saying goodbye to friends. Rather, it's people who use alleged "goodbye" threads to violate the rules, cause drama, and troll others. We have never permitted people to say goodbye on the forums. This is not a change, nor anything new.

Does Turbine think they are stronger than Facebook? Because that is what /signed behavior is from. "Liking" something.

And as such, does Turbine intend to remove their self from Facebook as that, per community guidelines, it would now earn infractions for "liking" something posted on Facebook should Facebook account ever become associated to a Turbine account.

No. Common sense also applies.

Have you carefully considered the dangers and various other factors of implementing something such as "We reserve the right to take appropriate actions if we feel any post, thread, or comment is, in the sole discretion of the Turbine Community team, inappropriate for our forums or sites, even if it is not specifically called out in these guidelines."? I feel that this is just a wide open door to abuse of some sort by the forum moderators. I do realize that most, if not all forum moderators probably won't abuse this rule because they tend to be good aligned, but I feel that even without the abuse, this rule will do nothing but add unneeded work on behalf of the moderators, whether it is for a good cause or a tool of evil.

This too is nothing new. From the current Guidelines: "Because every situation is different, all moderation of the Community Sites is at the discretion of the Turbine Community Team. These rules are subject to change without notice; please review them regularly." It basically aims to tell you that attempting to rules-lawyer your way out of an infraction is probably not going to work.

I have a problem with this. When I read this I take it to mean that nothing outside of DDO may be discussed, at all. Am I interpreting this right? If so, that is insane. Here is why:
Tech Support from fellow players on software issues not directly associated with DDO: not permitted
Talking about snacks, if any specific brand is mentioned: not permitted
Talking about Turbine's other games: not permitted
(This one is especially significant as it would disallow quoting from LotRO forums when there is an issue at headquarters and turbine only posts there with news)
In fact this could disallow (as they are not directly related to DDO):
-Discussing paper and pencil dungeons and dragons
-Discussing Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro
-Discussing Warner Brothers

Maybe I am reading this wrong though. If I am please state so clearly.

Again, Spam falls under common sense, too. Making a post in Off-Topic asking people to talk about their favorite candy bar is fine. Creating 100 threads linking to a place to earn free candy and spamming the forums with it is not okay.

After breaking access to the forums with my original account "Fedora" when Turbine migrated to this horrible new forum (I am still typing this as black on gray in IE because we cannot use Firefox at work, and I still need to right click and "open in new tab" to use the edit function) thus forcing me to create a second game account (ftp) in order to create a new Forum account "Fedora1", I will be granted a pardon on this rule?

I know there are many others in the same boat.

The main thing to know about the One Person, One Account rule is that the issue isn't the having of a second account (after all, many of us have a spare free account, some dualbox, etc.) The issue is using that second account for trolling or other violating behavior.

There's no actual way of seeing how many expired infraction points you have, correct?
Can we get a little more transparency on this?

Also I'm unsure about the 2010 date mentioned here...

I don't think the tech is there to allow this, but I will look into it. I think you are correct on the 2010 date; I think it was earlier for DDO.

Personally, I like non-vindictive good-bye posts. Ones that are hateful are already restricted by other rules; you do not need a farewell post ban to deal with the hateful ones.

A thoughtful goodbye hurts no one. They ought to be acceptable.

We have never allowed these posts for numerous reasons. I agree that a thoughtful goodbye is probably fine, but historically, time and again, it has been proven to us that we can't allow these posts, because a thoughtful goodbye often becomes a thread to bash Turbine or players, debate who's better than who, cry "doom!" over some change or another, etc. While I appreciate the sentiment of allowing a thoughtful goodbye, we also have to base the rules on actual behavior, and that behavior tells us to not permit goodbye posts.

[Cordovan]

I imagine that as much as they want to foster "community" they want to nix any possible flames and dissension before it happens. This gives them clearance to do what they want. It is the same as us telling a government they can't do something, to which the government turns around and makes a new law to say "yes we can."

However, this is one of the few cases where I'm certain they realize it is pointless.

I expect they will continue to do as they have. Lock a thread and forget about passing out infractions to someone who is no longer there.


Look at it this way. On these private gaming forums, they know full well, that some percentage of people are going to be rules lawyers. (face it, it comes with the game.) So to handle and in essence empower these types of personalities, they have created an abundance of rules. When in reality, these.. what? 20 rules? (Hush Steve Martain) can be limited down... 4?

1. Follow the ToS, copyright laws, EULA, etc.
2. Be respectful on the forums and watch the profanity usage. If someone "attacks" you. Report it and ignore the person. It is our job to deal with such, not yours.
3. Do not pad your post count. /like, /signed, /hatethisstupididea, etc. counts as such. Be more verbose about about why if you are inclined to want to treat the forums like Facebook..
4. Advertisements about other businesses and vestments are not allowed. There must be a direct link to DDO, LOTRO, AC, or Turbine Inc. for it to be permissible. Some cases, such as charities, may be given permission but only on a case by case bases.
5. The spirit of the rules are what shall be followed, not the written letter as these are a privately held forum. Our say is final. Any perceived abuse of these forums shall be delt with accordingly.

Ok, so five. *shrugs*

Frankly, almost all of these rules could be narrowed down to one rule: Wheaton's Law. Since it includes profanity, I'll leave it to you to Google it.

[Teh_Troll]

Frankly, almost all of these rules could be narrowed down to one rule: Wheaton's Law. Since it includes profanity, I'll leave it to you to Google it.

So don't insult people or be a jerk and we're fine?

As we still allowed to be racist towards halflings?

[Mahalko128]

I think you could chalk most of the posts after Cordovan's initial as, "Rules?! Nooooo!"

[Fedora1]

The main thing to know about the One Person, One Account rule is that the issue isn't the having of a second account (after all, many of us have a spare free account, some dualbox, etc.) The issue is using that second account for trolling or other violating behavior.

Okay thanks for the clarification.

[alancarp]

Community Guidelines
11. Polls and Petitions.
While we consider this spam, we felt we should explain why. First, several pages of /signed and /unsigned doesn’t really offer us much in the way of actionable feedback. Second, they usually turn into something unpleasant. Instead we recommend a well-considered suggestion posted in the appropriate area that would allow for meaningful contributions and opinions to be shared by all members of the community.

It doesn't?? Seriously? Isn't that a MUCH more succinct way of saying "I agree with everything you said"? The 'actionable feedback' is the original statement being quoted and /signed by subsequent posters. The 'well-considered suggestion' you seek is most likely post #1 of the thread. I would certainly think it would be a lot easier for y'all to see a topic, count the up or down 'votes' and then decide if a popular topic has actual merit for inclusion in the game.

In terms of a topic turning into something unpleasant, well, heck: isn't the point of the forums to express ideas, suggestions, and opinions... include opposing views? Respectfully, of course (that's the evident point of THIS topic thread), but the unpleasantness aspect is the responsibility of the posters. /signed and /unsigned designations actually would serve to keep the civility.

[stubby68]

Your house; your rules. I can live with that.

I think that all Turbine is asking of us is to act maturely, honorably, and to use common sense.

Everything after that is to give us a common list of expectations on how we should govern ourselves publicly.

We have all clicked on that little "I agree" box when we started playing.

[jalont]

It doesn't?? Seriously? Isn't that a MUCH more succinct way of saying "I agree with everything you said"? The 'actionable feedback' is the original statement being quoted and /signed by subsequent posters. The 'well-considered' suggestion you seek is most likely post #1 of the thread. I would certainly think it would be a lot easier for y'all to see a topic, count the up or down 'votes' and then decide if a popular topic has actually merit for inclusion in the game.

In terms of a topic turning into something unpleasant, well, heck: isn't the point of the forums to express ideas, suggestions, and opinions... include opposing views? Respectfully, of course (that's the evident point of THIS topic thread), but the unpleasantness aspect is the responsibility of the posters. /signed and /unsigned designations actually would serve to keep the civility.

The topic or suggestion can be seen in the first post. Turbine can then decide if it is a good game design idea. 100 people then putting signed or unsigned doesn't change if the idea makes sense gamewise.

[Grosbeak07]

I think you could chalk most of the posts after Cordovan's initial as, "Rules?! Nooooo!"

If they were all enforced evenly, I think people would have a lot less issue. But Turbine has a track record of hitting those who don't agree with them harder than those who do (like not at all).

But as another poster put it above, "Their house, their rules."

[jalont]

If they were all enforced evenly, I think people would have a lot less issue. But Turbine has a track record of hitting those who don't agree with them harder than those who do (like not at all).

It's funny that you have this opinion. I'm of the opinion that the devs here don't police at all unless it's very blatant like a rude tirade full of name calling.

[alancarp]

The topic or suggestion can be seen in the first post. Turbine can then decide if it is a good game design idea. 100 people then putting signed or unsigned doesn't change if the idea makes sense gamewise.

In assigning priority of changes and updates, it's a darn good idea to see how many people are on board with an idea. Even if something makes sense gamewise, it won't be implemented quickly if the players don't agree that they would approve and make use of the idea. Polls are useful... heck, that's effectively one purpose of the Player's Council - to bounce ideas around and see who likes them.

Furthermore, the policy statement actually wants those opinions and ideas conveyed... just not in this nice, compact, convenient succinct /signed/unsigned format. But sometimes... not often enough (blush)... I don't have anything more to say.

[enochiancub]

Well if nothing else I'm all for the idea of you guys improving moderation. It's been sorely lacking to be sure.

[Cordovan]

The topic or suggestion can be seen in the first post. Turbine can then decide if it is a good game design idea. 100 people then putting signed or unsigned doesn't change if the idea makes sense gamewise.

It doesn't?? Seriously? Isn't that a MUCH more succinct way of saying "I agree with everything you said"? The 'actionable feedback' is the original statement being quoted and /signed by subsequent posters. The 'well-considered suggestion' you seek is most likely post #1 of the thread. I would certainly think it would be a lot easier for y'all to see a topic, count the up or down 'votes' and then decide if a popular topic has actual merit for inclusion in the game.

In terms of a topic turning into something unpleasant, well, heck: isn't the point of the forums to express ideas, suggestions, and opinions... include opposing views? Respectfully, of course (that's the evident point of THIS topic thread), but the unpleasantness aspect is the responsibility of the posters. /signed and /unsigned designations actually would serve to keep the civility.

For feedback, even if the OP has a well-considered suggestion, it is valuable for the team to hear other voices and opinions on the subject, or at the very least others re-iterating why such a change or idea is important to them. Simple /signed threads just don't offer much of value when it comes to feedback. That said, I'll be honest, we have very rarely had to engage in moderator activity over this rule, and I'd expect that to continue.

[rest]

There's no actual way of seeing how many expired infraction points you have, correct?
Can we get a little more transparency on this?

Access your profile by clicking your name where it says "Welcome, Stretchicus" in the upper right corner of the forums. On that page, there are 4 tabs at the top labeled "My Activity", "About Me", "Friends", and "Infractions". Click the "Infractions" tab and it will bring up all the infractions and warning you have received over the course of your entire DDO Forum career. This is helpful for people who have more than 5 warnings/infractions.

[jalont]

Access your profile by clicking your name where it says "Welcome, Stretchicus" in the upper right corner of the forums. On that page, there are 4 tabs at the top labeled "My Activity", "About Me", "Friends", and "Infractions". Click the "Infractions" tab and it will bring up all the infractions and warning you have received over the course of your entire DDO Forum career. This is helpful for people who have more than 5 warnings/infractions.

I don't have one of these infractions tab. Perhaps it spawns when you receive an infraction?

[rest]

I don't have one of these infractions tab. Perhaps it spawns when you receive an infraction?

That is likely correct. I don't personally know the answer to that question.

This is what my profile looks like, and it is probably what people who have received a warning/infraction will see on their profile.