why is completionist a feat and epic completionist not

[Standal]

I do feel like completionist and epic completionist should be autogranted to you upon achievement. Its not like either is easy to do.

I have fully ground out 8 lives on my completionist character, and the more i think about it, I feel like I deserve to be autogranted the feat. I've used xp pots, but I haven't skipped any levels with stones. Likewise with epic completionist, you have to put in a lot of work to earn the feat. Just the thought of doing all those quests another 4-5 times makes me question the worth of +2 to all stats, if I have to sink a feat into it. That amounts to an extra +1 spell DC or +1 damage, which isn't all that terrific.

Asking people to grind out Demon Sands and Gianthold for the umpteenth time seems worth of a feat. I work at my own pace and generally do Threnal for the crafting bits. Just doing the full Threnal chain 14 times is worth a special feat. Coyle is a serious jerk to deal with. Can I get my choice of +/- 10% stacking threat after dealing with that a$$hole?

It makes more sense to autogrant the feat rather than clog up limited feat resources on the build you plan to finish with, given the time, resource and money expenditure required, is amazingly expensive. I've never done the math to total up the points and real world money I've put into the game on my quest for completionist, but it has to be worth at least one free feat.

The past life feats are ok, but nothing to really write home about considering you're forced to run only elite past life 3. I've been debating the effort vs payoff ever since my fifth life, and at this point, I feel like I should focus on end game equipment over earning a pretty decent feat that I still have to pay for.

Full, triple completionist should definitely have its own feat. +6 to all stats, or +4 to all stats and skills would be a decent reward for all the work involved, and would reward all the players that have stuck with DDO through thick and thin to achieve the feat. Sometimes you ask a lot of us just dealing with terrible management choices over the years.

Completionist TR has been my goal, but I'm starting to rethink the worth now that I've passed the halfway mark and realized what an investment it really is. (Threnal anyone?) I feel like I've earned a passive +2 overall stat boost with 6 lives. Make it +5 and I'll spend a feat on that. The completionist feat should be autogranted, or add heroic versions of epic-only quests. You wouldn't believe how excited I was to see the lvl 9 Haunted Halls bug. I would be all over that for level 11 elite.

The Troll can say some dumb **** at times, but I think he's on the mark with this point. Overall, I think he's a valuable asset to where the game should be headed.

Nobody ever mentions what this feat is worth. Some builds can't use it well and shouldn't take it. On a Cetus type build, this feat is worth around 21 build points. It seems reasonable to spend a feat for that. On a caster build, it replaces a DC feat and gives stat bonuses as a free plus. There's nothing wrong with completionist being a feat. One of the problems this game has is that vets have huge advantages over newbs in builds and gear. You can pretend it's all player skill but tomes, past lives, twists and destinies all matter a lot. I'm a terrible player, but I have a lot of the stuff grind gets you. That gives me a huge leg up. Giving completionist for free just makes that worse.

[MangLord]

Nobody ever mentions what this feat is worth. Some builds can't use it well and shouldn't take it. On a Cetus type build, this feat is worth around 21 build points. It seems reasonable to spend a feat for that. On a caster build, it replaces a DC feat and gives stat bonuses as a free plus. There's nothing wrong with completionist being a feat. One of the problems this game has is that vets have huge advantages over newbs in builds and gear. You can pretend it's all player skill but tomes, past lives, twists and destinies all matter a lot. I'm a terrible player, but I have a lot of the stuff grind gets you. That gives me a huge leg up. Giving completionist for free just makes that worse.

I completely agree with your comments about the haves and have nots. I did a fighter12/cleric8 slplit for my fighter life, which was 6 lives in. I had absolutely no trouble kicking ass all the way up to 20. Since I liked it so much, I decided to do an iconic morninglord with the same build, only this time with a maul, since morninglord can get racial bonuses with it. I needed something for level 16 or so, when friends want to play that level. My first life morninglord is way less effective than my 6th lifer. I don't know if it's build points, tomes, gear or a combination of everything.

I still feel like a year or two worth of effort (I've spend almost 2 years getting into my 8th life, with various breaks building up other characters) should be rewarded appropriately. Getting completionist feat for free seems like a reasonable request for the amount of work involved in the endeavor. Some builds and classes are a little starved for feats, so squeezing in completionist can be difficult on, say, a rogue who has a lot of feats to take.

[Llewndyn]

Nobody ever mentions what this feat is worth. Some builds can't use it well and shouldn't take it. On a Cetus type build, this feat is worth around 21 build points. It seems reasonable to spend a feat for that. On a caster build, it replaces a DC feat and gives stat bonuses as a free plus. There's nothing wrong with completionist being a feat. One of the problems this game has is that vets have huge advantages over newbs in builds and gear. You can pretend it's all player skill but tomes, past lives, twists and destinies all matter a lot. I'm a terrible player, but I have a lot of the stuff grind gets you. That gives me a huge leg up. Giving completionist for free just makes that worse.

I think the disconnect here, is that as a completionist I WORKED for that feat. I, personally, suffered through paladin, rogue, bard, and artificer to attain that feat. I was a newb/ noob once too. I got where I wanted by working for it. GIVING me the completionist feat in recognition of all the time invested playing this game is not out of line IMHO. In a perfect world, they would know if I Otto's boxed or something and things would change based on that, but as it sits even people that spent 400 dollars to buy completionist should be able to get the feat for free.

The "huge leg up" comes from skill + tomes + past lives + twists, that's true, but none of those are just handed to you. I don't know many people who didn't outright buy +5 tomes say they got them all handed to them because they hit completionist... they had to grind Mabar, or run EE quests, or farm tomb of Gerard Dryden.... they DESERVE those items. What it feels like you are saying is that because someone brand new to the game isn't as powerful as someone playing for 7 years, the gap should be lessened. I say that is wrong. If I get completionist, if I've farmed until I got all GS clean loot or raid loot or alchemical loot upgraded or what have you, it SHOULD be a benefit that those who did not farm don't have. If I put the time in to run up 3 wizards and 3 sorcs and 3 fvs and 3 clerics and then run some crazy build, it SHOULD be better than someone brand new to the game rolling up their first caster. There should be a very clear difference, because there's a very clear difference in the time and energy invested in attaining that goal. Lessening that goal means the longer you play the game the more water you tread, and who wants to do that?

Just my 2cp

[Standal]

I think the disconnect here, is that as a completionist I WORKED for that feat. I, personally, suffered through paladin, rogue, bard, and artificer to attain that feat. I was a newb/ noob once too. I got where I wanted by working for it. GIVING me the completionist feat in recognition of all the time invested playing this game is not out of line IMHO. In a perfect world, they would know if I Otto's boxed or something and things would change based on that, but as it sits even people that spent 400 dollars to buy completionist should be able to get the feat for free.

The "huge leg up" comes from skill + tomes + past lives + twists, that's true, but none of those are just handed to you. I don't know many people who didn't outright buy +5 tomes say they got them all handed to them because they hit completionist... they had to grind Mabar, or run EE quests, or farm tomb of Gerard Dryden.... they DESERVE those items. What it feels like you are saying is that because someone brand new to the game isn't as powerful as someone playing for 7 years, the gap should be lessened. I say that is wrong. If I get completionist, if I've farmed until I got all GS clean loot or raid loot or alchemical loot upgraded or what have you, it SHOULD be a benefit that those who did not farm don't have. If I put the time in to run up 3 wizards and 3 sorcs and 3 fvs and 3 clerics and then run some crazy build, it SHOULD be better than someone brand new to the game rolling up their first caster. There should be a very clear difference, because there's a very clear difference in the time and energy invested in attaining that goal. Lessening that goal means the longer you play the game the more water you tread, and who wants to do that?

Just my 2cp

Didn't you know that you were not going to get the completionist feat for free the entire time you were grinding for it? If not, you should have. You are getting exactly what you worked for. You are getting the opportunity to take a very useful feat.

I don't think the gap between you and newbs should be lessened; I don't want either of our characters to be nerfed down closer to newb level. What I am arguing against is even more power creep for the players who need it least.

[MuleAxe]

I do enjoy the + 2 to all stat points, but how about you just take away the feat altogether, and instead get a 25% bonus to your skill points, and a new "completionist" enhancement tree.

[Llewndyn]

Didn't you know that you were not going to get the completionist feat for free the entire time you were grinding for it? If not, you should have. You are getting exactly what you worked for. You are getting the opportunity to take a very useful feat.

I don't think the gap between you and newbs should be lessened; I don't want either of our characters to be nerfed down closer to newb level. What I am arguing against is even more power creep for the players who need it least.

I absolutely knew that. The whole point of this thread is would it be a good thing to change it. I responded that I think it would. This is how things change, people follow the rules, but wonder if maybe there is a better way. How is getting the feat free going to cause that much more power creep? Adding 2 to my stats doesn't all of a sudden make me unstoppable, and with all the nerfs to builds and weapons and abilities going on, a small perk would go a long way.

[Llewndyn]

I do enjoy the + 2 to all stat points, but how about you just take away the feat altogether, and instead get a 25% bonus to your skill points, and a new "completionist" enhancement tree.

Enhancements are already spread thin as it is. I would rather shell out for the feat than have to spend enhancements on completionist boosts.

[Powskier]

so why do completionist? Heroic completionist feat, will take a diff feat away from a character..it shouldnt be a tradeoff. Ill never even think about heroic completionist untill I hear it is granted Free after aquireing it.

[grandeibra]

so why do completionist? Heroic completionist feat, will take a diff feat away from a character..it shouldnt be a tradeoff. Ill never even think about heroic completionist untill I hear it is granted Free after aquireing it.

Will you ever think about epic completionist until you hear it's granted for free? Since taking it precludes you from maxing the levels for your existing three slots. So also a tradeoff, not for free.

Personally I've never understood this whole debate. Power players get an absolutely incredible feat from heroic comp. They have to decide which of the crappier feats they replace. Why is this an issue? Only for an extremely feat-starved build with possibly 2 specific feat-chains needed would I ever consider not taking completionist over another feat.

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

Idk why epic completionist doesn't cost a slot. I think it should, just like heroic... They are too good to be free.

Do you think TR'ing 12 times is "free"?

Both should come as a perk, not something you trade a feat to get, some builds are already feat-starved as it is.

Carry on.

[Cathimon]

I'm against it, and I got 2 completionist characters myself. I used to be in favor of it being auto-grant, but that was before otto's boxes. You already get a huge advantage over the first lifer when you've got several H-PLs/E-PLs. And I've yet to figure a build in which I wouldn't take the completionist feat.

[Oxarhamar]

I'm against it, and I got 2 completionist characters myself. I used to be in favor of it being auto-grant, but that was before otto's boxes. You already get a huge advantage over the first lifer when you've got several H-PLs/E-PLs. And I've yet to figure a build in which I wouldn't take the completionist feat.

all the more reason to be for it.

I've a natural complitionist and I don't care how many Ottos box completionst there are. If Ottos box keeps the lights on then so be it!

Completionist feat should be free there is no reason to punish completionist players by forcing them to take a feat to gain what they have earned.

[Oxarhamar]

Will you ever think about epic completionist until you hear it's granted for free? Since taking it precludes you from maxing the levels for your existing three slots. So also a tradeoff, not for free.

Personally I've never understood this whole debate. Power players get an absolutely incredible feat from heroic comp. They have to decide which of the crappier feats they replace. Why is this an issue? Only for an extremely feat-starved build with possibly 2 specific feat-chains needed would I ever consider not taking completionist over another feat.

it doesn't preclude you from maxing the levels for your existing slots you can earn more fate points easy enough.

I'd much rather be able to take a feat I want than take Completionist and have to multiclass to pick up other feats needed to get all the feat required for certain builds.

And we know they made epic completionist an auto grant to make more players want to obtain it.

[Loriac]

Quite honestly, the completionist feat is too strong for the cost of a single feat, all the past lives you may have done notwithstanding.

I find it risible that the people clamouring for it to be free don't want to recognise this fact.

The only way it could be made free would be to water it down a lot, at which point you'd see a lot of rage quits from current completionists.

Perhaps however turbine should change it. Take away all the benefits it currently gives, and instead change it to provide a single free feat slot. This would make it comparable to the epic version. Then, if they're really being generous, they could reinstate completionist but make it cost 2 feats (though this would probably require it to be split into 2 feats, with the first feat giving +skills and the second feat the +attributes). Maybe that would be worth it to stop the continual resurgence of these threads begging for power creep on the toons that least need it in the game.

[grandeibra]

it doesn't preclude you from maxing the levels for your existing slots you can earn more fate points easy enough.

I'd much rather be able to take a feat I want than take Completionist and have to multiclass to pick up other feats needed to get all the feat required for certain builds.

And we know they made epic completionist an auto grant to make more players want to obtain it.

It DOES preclude you from maxing your existing slots since there is a specific limit to how many fate points you can get on a toon. To get the 4th slot activated you spend 4 points , which could be used to for example get a tier 3 on your second slot instead. So no it is not autogrant.

Completionist feat should be free there is no reason to punish completionist players by forcing them to take a feat to gain what they have earned.

And we know they made epic completionist an auto grant to make more players want to obtain it.

There is no punishment and no forcing and no auto-grant. Heroic completionist merely gives you the option to use a feat slot for an absolutely superb feat if you want (instead of another feat) . Similarly epic givs you the option to use 4 fate points for a twist of your choice (instead of using a higher tier twist for one of your earlier slots), Both involve choices, neither punishes you in any way.

[Oxarhamar]

It DOES preclude you from maxing your existing slots since there is a specific limit to how many fate points you can get on a toon. To get the 4th slot activated you spend 4 points , which could be used to for example get a tier 3 on your second slot instead. So no it is not autogrant.

There is no punishment and no forcing and no auto-grant. Heroic completionist merely gives you the option to use a feat slot for an absolutely superb feat if you want (instead of another feat) . Similarly epic givs you the option to use 4 fate points for a twist of your choice (instead of using a higher tier twist for one of your earlier slots), Both involve choices, neither punishes you in any way.

And each 4th ETR grants 1 fate point giving you the ability to vary your twists much more. The slot is free what you do with it is up to you.

Heroic Completionist certainly does force you to take a feat if you want to use the feat that you earned doing a minimum of 14 HTR punishing you in the loss of a standard feat slot for standard feats. While I agree heroic Completionist feat is great there are many built type feat chains that get very tight and sacrafices need to be made unordered to fit in Completionist. That should not be the case a Completionist should not get 1 less feat that a standard build to use the feat that they have earned.

While many of the standard feats alone do not stand up to heroic Completionist it becames a difficult feat to fit in when you need to fit in all the prerequisite feats unlock other feats and enhancements or to make combat styles viable.

[dunklezhan]

Neither should cost a feat.

Teh Troll Tells Teh Truth.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Do you think TR'ing 12 times is "free"?

Both should come as a perk, not something you trade a feat to get, some builds are already feat-starved as it is.

Carry on.

TR is rewarded and that's why you did it.

Carry on.

[Ryethiel]

How about something a little dirty?...

Make Heroic Completionist auto-grant, so long as you have Epic Completionist!

*Hides*

[grandeibra]

And each 4th ETR grants 1 fate point giving you the ability to vary your twists much more. The slot is free what you do with it is up to you.

Heroic Completionist certainly does force you to take a feat if you want to use the feat that you earned doing a minimum of 14 HTR punishing you in the loss of a standard feat slot for standard feats. While I agree heroic Completionist feat is great there are many built type feat chains that get very tight and sacrafices need to be made unordered to fit in Completionist. That should not be the case a Completionist should not get 1 less feat that a standard build to use the feat that they have earned.

While many of the standard feats alone do not stand up to heroic Completionist it becames a difficult feat to fit in when you need to fit in all the prerequisite feats unlock other feats and enhancements or to make combat styles viable.

They don't get one less feat. They get the same only they have the option to use one of them on the super Completionist feat.

Every 4 eTRs adds one fate point but not in perpetuity so there is a ceiling. And once again, those extra fate points can be used to grab higher level twists OR to open up the 4th slot. Similar to heroic completionist the player has an option. I would guss that for most builds they pick the Completionist feat and the 4th twist slot. One of my own builds will not select the 4th slot, instead opting for higher level 2nd twist since it fits her build better. And yet I won't whine about the slot not being unlocked for free when I finish the epic copmpletionist. .