How good is the silver longbow?

[Waaye]

Most threads on this forum state that the silver longbow is the best bow for low level players. This did not seem to agree with my experience so I decided to test the claim.

The first experiment was to go to the desert in Demon Sands and kill the the same five mobs while counting the shots needed to bring them down.

The average number of shots for the desert test were:

Silver - 4.0;
Elements (Air) - 4.5;
Thornlord - 3.2;
new bow - 4.2;

In the desert Thornlord worked the best for me and the others were about the same.

Then I tried the same plan with the Duergar in the mine at Atraxia's.

Those results:

Silver - 6.0;
Elements (Air) - 5.2;
Thornlord - 5.6;
new bow - 5.4;

It should be noted that the only bow to have a critical hit in the mine was Elements (Air) which reduced the count slightly. The silver bow had twice the chance of a critical hit but silver won't crit if the arrow don't hit and the silver bow missed more times than the others.

In the mine the +5 bows worked best, followed by the +4 Thornlord, and the +3 silver bow in last place.

My sample size of five is small but still valid. If anyone is interested in the subject then please repeat the experiment and post your results.
Thanks for reading.

[Qhualor]

So good that when people did their math comparisons pre-MOTU that it was in the list with GS and Thornlord. It was considered a top 3-5 in a short list, including epic bows.

[ValariusK]

Here's the thing about the Silver longbow. It has a base crit of 10% for 3x damage. Most other bows are 5% for 3x. It's better than keen BECAUSE it stacks with improved critical. Thus you're talking about 20% crits for 3x damage, which is exactly the profile of a khopesh when you think about it.

This means that any arcane archer toys you have the go off crits (or which CAN crit, like slaying arrow in the middle of your manyshot), will be a lot better than otherwise.

[Raoull]

Improved crit profiles are very hard to rate as general purpose weapons.

If you have no bow str / dex to dam.... you'd look at the silver longbow completely differently than someone with a 50 Str and bowstr. That extra +20 base damage means an extra +5 damage on the silver longbow just due to to crits. Any other sources of bonus damage, including seeker, similarly separate them. In an extreme example, a silver bow will do, on average, 50 more damage with a Slaying arrow than a standard crit profile bow just due to this effect.

[Waaye]

[...] when people did their math comparisons[...]

Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?

[...]This means that any arcane archer toys you have the go off crits (or which CAN crit, like slaying arrow in the middle of your manyshot), will be a lot better than otherwise.

Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit and in higher level quests +5 bows hit more often than +3 silver bows. Can you devise an experiment to test your hypothesis and post the results?

[redspecter23]

Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?


Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit and in higher level quests +5 bows hit more often than +3 silver bows. Can you devise an experiment to test your hypothesis and post the results?

The math was done and it looked legit. You don't have to trust the numbers. If you find that +5 hits so much more than +3, then it may be best to look at other ways of raising your attack value so that element is lessened or removed. Obviously, if you're shooting at non evil or non crittable targets then Silver Longbow loses much of it's punch. As mentioned, the higher your damage mod and crit effects, the more useful the Silver Bow will be. It might be important to mention your character build and level for comparison.


Your sample size seems very, very small making it hard to use as evidence one way or the other. You might have to kill hundreds of mobs with each bow to get some decent numbers in a field test. You're testing a bow which relies on crits, but your sample size was low enough that only one bow scored one crit. Very weak numbers.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

What people forget is that "Holy" is only good for "evil" monsters. Many monsters are neutral.
Plus some have DR to take into account.

Many are also immune to crits.

But if DR is not an issue and the monster is Evil, andcan be critted, the Silver Long Bow does quite well.

Plus I think the new one has a red augment slot as well... (right?)

[Qhualor]

Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?

my searchfu isn't very good. I did try to find some posts that had a good comparison to some of the bows in the game at the time, but you can easily read them yourself just browsing through some of the old threads that talk about the Silver Bow. in every one of those comparison threads, though, that bow is listed along side Thornlord, GS, alchemical, Unwavering Ardency and even when the Silver Flame bow was released. one thing you have to also include is like what some of the others are talking about that can increase damage and boost more crits from bows. some of it will be affected by enhancements, gear and feats that wont always apply to certain builds since they might not have access to them.

in your case, you haven't even said what kind of build you are and that can make a big difference. for the longest time Thornlord was considered THE best bow in the game for archer types.

[Waaye]

The math was done and it looked legit.[...]

Where did they get the formulae? DDO is proprietary and I can not find the equations they are using anywhere. Even without the math did no one ever bother to actually test the claims empirically?

Your sample size seems very, very small making it hard to use as evidence one way or the other.

It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO! More data would be great and that is why I invited everyone to do their own testing and post their results.

Even with my small sample size the bows are working just as would be expected in a D&D-based game. The + of a weapon is important because it increases the chance to hit in addition to adding to the damage. In areas with lower-level mobs like the desert where the bow miss chance is the same Thornlord worked better because of its high base damage and the silver bow could not crit the undead. In other low-level areas the silver bow might be better. It does not matter much because low-level monsters are no great threat to higher-level characters.

In more difficult areas, however, the +5 bows pull ahead of the others because they miss less often. Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.

[...] Silver Long Bow does quite well.

But how well? Can you quantify it? Please devise an experiment and post the results so we can all see how good the bow is.

[redspecter23]

Where did they get the formulae? DDO is proprietary and I can not find the equations they are using anywhere. Even without the math did no one ever bother to actually test the claims empirically?


It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO! More data would be great and that is why I invited everyone to do their own testing and post their results.

Even with my small sample size the bows are working just as would be expected in a D&D-based game. The + of a weapon is important because it increases the chance to hit in addition to adding to the damage. In areas with lower-level mobs like the desert where the bow miss chance is the same Thornlord worked better because of its high base damage and the silver bow could not crit the undead. In other low-level areas the silver bow might be better. It does not matter much because low-level monsters are no great threat to higher-level characters.

In more difficult areas, however, the +5 bows pull ahead of the others because they miss less often. Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.


But how well? Can you quantify it? Please devise an experiment and post the results so we can all see how good the bow is.

Over 20 attacks (assuming the mob takes holy damage and has 0% fort, ideal situation for Silver Longbow)
We'll also assume that whatever you are attacking is hit on a 2 or higher and that you have improved crit: ranged

Silver Longbow 1d10, 17-20 x3

1 - miss
2 - 8.5 dmg (1d10 is average 5.5 damage +3 enhancement bonus)+ str mod +2d6 holy
3 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
4 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
5 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
6 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
7 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
8 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
9 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
10 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
11 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
12 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
13 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
14 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
15 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
16 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
17 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
18 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
19 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
20 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy

= 229.5 + 27(str mod) +133 holy over 20 attacks


Thornlord 1.5(1d8+2) 19-20 x3

1 - miss
2 - 13.75(1d8+2 damage is 6.5 average damage +4 enhancement bonus) + str mod
3 - 13.75 + str mod
4 - 13.75 + str mod
5 - 13.75 + str mod
6 - 13.75 + str mod
7 - 13.75 + str mod
8 - 13.75 + str mod
9 - 13.75 + str mod
10 - 13.75 + str mod
11 - 13.75 + str mod
12 - 13.75 + str mod
13 - 13.75 + str mod
14 - 13.75 + str mod
15 - 13.75 + str mod
16 - 13.75 + str mod
17 - 13.75 + str mod
18 - 13.75 + str mod
19 - 3(13.75) + 3(str mod)
20 - 3(13.75) + 3(str mod)

316.25 + 23(str mod)

Assume a very low str mod of 5 and we get the following average damage per hit

Silver Longbow - 497.5 over 20 attacks or 24.875 per attack

Thornlord - 431.25 over 20 attacks or 21.5625 per attack

Any extra positive modifier to your damage mod or seeker only pulls the Silver Longbow further ahead. It's highly unlikely anyone would have a str mod as low as +5, but even if they did, Silver Longbow is better for targets it does full damage against. If you're using +4 or greater arrows, the Silver Longbow pulls ahead more. If you have any "on crit" effects, the Silver Longbow pulls ahead again due to larger crit range.

The Thornlord has a very nice base damage and will do better against non crittable targets and those that don't take holy damage.

The main point of your concern seems to be the extra "to hit" value associated with the Thornlord or +5 bows. In theory, this might be an issue, but getting a high enough bonus to hit on a 2, at least in mid level content where these bows would be compared, is not hard to do if you invest heavily into it. Accuracy item, max dex boosts, heroism or greater heroism, etc. In my above example, even if you missed on a 1 or 2 with the Silver Longbow (accounting for the -1 enhancement bonus compared to the Thornlord) the Silver Bow is still ahead (23.875 damage per hit on the Silver Longbow compared to 21.5625 on the Thornlord).


*forgive me for any math mistakes as this was done very quickly

Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.

You're suggesting that when you roll a 17+, you're missing the mob? If that's the case, you have bigger issues. It's possible you roll 17+ but then fail the confirmation roll by 1 or 2 points which the other bows wouldn't have an issue with, but seeker bonus should make that a non issue.

[Waaye]

[...]*forgive me for any math mistakes as this was done very quickly

Yes, I read the theoretical stuff and my silver bow must be busted because it never worked that well.

Theory is irrelevant because only actual damage can bring down a mob or a boss.

Of course the only way to test how the bows will work for low-level characters is to actually test them using a low-level character. With high-level characters the chance to miss with the bows will be the same and the silver bow will look better than the +3 bow it really is.

[redspecter23]

Yes, I read the theoretical stuff and my silver bow must be busted because it never worked that well.

Theory is irrelevant because only actual damage can bring down a mob or a boss.

Of course the only way to test how the bows will work for low-level characters is to actually test them using a low-level character. With high-level characters the chance to miss with the bows will be the same and the silver bow will look better than the +3 bow it really is.

Like I said, you don't have to believe the math, but the numbers are accurate. Perhaps your bow is broken. Perhaps the game is broken. Theory math is perfect unless something else in the system has failed. I can only go by what I know. If you feel there is some hidden -10 hit penalty on the Silver Longbow, I can't account for that with my numbers. You'll have to do some more thorough testing to confirm. I won't post in game tests because I don't personally think the game engine is broken in this case. If you feel it is, bug report it. This is a game built on math. All the numbers are there and the results are conclusive.

[ValariusK]

It is very easy as a ranger to basically never miss. That enhancement that does spot, listen and search in the arcane archer tree ALSO does to hit. With that, a respectable dexterity, and the full BAB that you have as a ranger (and the fact that unless you're a tier-5 DWS, you AREN'T taking power attack to hit penalties), means that you're rarely if ever going to miss except on a 1. If you still miss, add a little +attack, there are lots of decent items with a little added as a seasoning (like the goggles of perception). On my cleric, with 3/4 BAB, I found a +6 accuracy item useful. But this isn't pen & paper, hitting isn't usually an issue for serious combatants. By epic levels, you'll pretty much always be walking around with greater heroism anyway and often several other buffs that affect to hit.

[Ancient]

It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO!

While you can take the position any data is valid data, for a sample size that small... any conclusion is invalid.

[Waaye]

[...]Theory math is perfect [...]

Okay, if that is true then it must agree with the observed data. Why hasn't a single response included any observed data?

[Waaye]

While you can take the position any data is valid data, for a sample size that small... any conclusion is invalid.

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

[redspecter23]

It's quite clear you don't want any actual proof that is contrary to your personal anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure what you want us to say other than to agree completely with you that all the numbers in the system and item descriptions are in error and your anecdotal evidence and small sample size is completely correct. That line of thinking would require all logic to be thrown right out the window.

The math doesn't lie. Assuming all values correct, the numbers I've given you are correct. The only other conclusion is that some other variable is incorrect. Be it an error on an item. An error in the combat code or... something else.

[IlmethSoultaker]

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

So your complaint is that you've found something that works better for your character than an item people said is really good? Silver Longbow is good. In different situations, other weapons may be better. There is a lot of this in DDO.

And while you may have posted some results, your sample size is small enough that I'd still trust the math. RNGs, and all that.

[Waaye]

So your complaint [...]

The OP was not a complaint only my observations that the bows were working as they should and curious if others had observed similar performance. So far not a single response has been on that topic which must be some kind of record even for these forums.

[IlmethSoultaker]

The OP was not a complaint only my observations that the bows were working as they should and curious if others had observed similar performance. So far not a single response has been on that topic which must be some kind of record even for these forums.

Then I'll respond to the OP, even though most people DID respond to the title of your thread: Yes, I have seen a weapon that isn't usually as good as another performing better than those others in too-small sample sizes. Considering that probably biggest benefit to the Silver Longbow is its critical profile (particularly with Improved Critical feat) and you completely discounted that by having such a small sample that only ONE of FOUR bows even registered a critical, I'd say it's incredibly likely to have that occur.

Additionally, you've sort of implied that your measure of how "good" something is depends on how many shot it takes to kill an average trash mob. How about the damage done on red names? Did you try things with different sources of DR? What arrows were you using? Did you try it with any +4 or +5 arrows?

Either you've done an incredibly incompetent job testing, or you're practicing some trolling skills, because it sounds like you actually tested for about 30 seconds on some trash just so you could come on the boards and state that everyone is wrong, even though you haven't done a sufficient amount of testing to discredit anything that has been said.