How good is the silver longbow?

[Oxarhamar]

Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.

You bullied you own self by attacking those experienced players who know the ins and outs of the game.



Silver longbow hands down is better if you properly gear in most situations. If there was a better bow the experienced players would be using it.

[sephiroth1084]

Every equation posted in this thread without anything to show that Turbine is using those calculations in DDO.

6 X 9 = 42 is also an equation but there may be something fundamentally wrong with it.

What?! What does this even mean? We're not making up the game mechanics--I've offered examples of how the game actually works. I'll add two more:

Critical hits are determined by the d20 (or converted to a straight percentage), with every point representing a 5% chance to crit. Thus, a 20/x3 weapon crits 5% of the time, a 19-20 crits 10% of the time, and a 17-20 crits 20% of the time. That's how the thing works in DDO.

Also, when you make attack rolls, your character cycles through an iterative attack progression of +0, +5, +10 (I can't recall whether it's +0, +0, 5, 10, or 0, 5, 10, 15, because I don't pay all that much attention these days). Additionally, when you attack while moving, you also suffer a -4 penalty on to-hit. For a melee character, the iterative attack bonuses are easier to notice because they come attached to your attacks in the chain, but with a bow, all of your attacks look the same, so the only ways to tell which are getting which bonus is to look at the die rolled on your screen or view your combat log.

This can result in your having a skewed sense of what is missing more often: if you need to essentially roll a 15 to hit your target with a +0 bonus, and roll an 11, you'll miss. If you then roll the same number on your next attack, but have the +5 iterative attack bonus, you'll hit.

Your small sample set is irrelevant because of its size, because you simply aren't looking at enough examples to get a sense of the larger trends that can be showing up: a 20% chance for something to occur may or may not pan out over 5 attacks, but over 100 you should be seeing something in that area, and over 1,000 you should be seeing something very close to 20%. If you're talking about misses, you need to be recording what your total rolls were; simply saying one thing missed while another hit isn't useful, because you may have just "rolled" poorly for one and well for the other. And, again, we're talking about a variable of more than 20 digits, which really needs several times that number in test cases before yielding any sort of reliable figure.

Why is no one taking a few minutes to go into the game with a L10 character and try the different bows to see how they compare? Then they can post the results and we can all look at some actual data and stop debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whatever.

Of course that probably happened quite some time ago and nobody wants to post their results. How odd.

Because none of us feel the need to go and physically test something that we've tried and observed over years of playing just to satisfy the guy on the forums being unreasonably obtuse for no reason?

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size.

WHAT? By whom? For what? 5 is nowhere near statistically relevant for almost anything. Certainly not for stuff like we're talking about here. There are better statisticians than I on the forums who have performed rigorous testing for many facets of DDO that didn't work out as expected at 100 tests, or even 500, but at 1,000, or in some cases 10,000, the overall trends became apparent. If an effect triggers 2% of the time, do you think 5 tests will make any sort of determination about that? You'd need at minimum 50 tests in order to have any sort of idea whatsoever, but really would needs hundreds, or thousands, to pin down that figure.

Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done.

What does this even mean? Being new or not to DDO is totally irrelevant to how often your weapon scores a critical hit. The only questions are whether you have Improved Cirtical (ranged) or not, and rolling enough to-hits to see the trend to some reliable degree. That's it. Your percentage doesn't change just because you've been playing the game longer, and it doesn't change with any other gear, really. There are a few bows in the game that have a base 19-20 crit range, like the Silver Bow, and a few abilities that can expand that besides Improved Critical (tier 5 Fighter Kensei enhancement, an epic destiny ability), but that's it. If I take your bows, they'll function the same way for me as they do for you, mechanically speaking.

Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

Really, why are you being so stubbornly wrong? Are you 10 years old? Are you paranoid? Do you think numbers are out to get you, or that everyone who presents numbers are just trying to pull one over on you?

If you want to prove something, go clear out the entire Desert once with each of the different bows, excluding the undead side, recording every attack roll (what the numbers are for that die roll: with the actual roll, and the bonus being added to it), whether you hit or missed, whether you crit or not, how many attacks it took to kill the creature, and what creature it was specifically (a drow acolyte is going to be different than a drow stalker, etc...). That'll be a few hundred creatures you'll have killed.

[jalont]

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

What to say.

1.) Never believe advice from these forums. It's sort of an in-game joke that forum posters don't actually play the game because what they say is the opposite of reality.

2.) Theory math is always correct unless there is a breakdown in the system.

3.) Honestly, the enhancement bonus shouldn't make much of a difference, even at low level. I would think if you're noticing a difference then it's a badly built toon. That being said, even if you have a badly built toon, the math has already been shown.

4.) Your sample size is entirely too small.

[MartinusWyllt]

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size....

Please cite this so that for my next plant infection experiment (measuring via disease index, generally comparing a mutant pathogen to wild-type) I can claim that I don't need to do 100 plants per treatment...I could do 20 times more treatments that way with the same number of plants!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So use +5 arrows.

Edit: Use whatever bow you want to.

Experiment on your own.

I do not crunch numbers, and I take other people's numbers with a grain of salt.
I believe... other people's numbers, but I also know that few statistics take into account all of the variables.

I have a pretty good understanding of most DDO aspects. I have played extensively for years.

I do not claim the Silver Bow is the best, but it is very nice.

I typically do not use it for neutral monsters, or undead.

If I have a smiter, disruptor...greater bane...etc. I use that instead.

Try both.
Use whichever you like best.

But I have been playing long enough to know that critting often usually means more DPS. (but not always)


I also understand that people miss more often than the number crunchers admit to. But fo rbows, you have to take the arrows into account too. And Enhancements.

Level of character as well.

Too many variables to give you a one size fits all answer.

But go test it on your character and decide which one you like best.

[Krelar]

A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range.

The word you're looking for is outlier. But if you only heard someone say it once and never saw it written down I can see how it could sound like "flyer".

If you'd like to see a good example of how to test things I would look at this post for weapon and guard proc rates. Pay special attention to the sample size.

No one is going to test it for you because no one else has any reason to believe there is anything wrong at this point. You can either do a proper test yourself and post the results, or you can stop worrying about convincing other people and use whatever weapon you feel like.

[Ancient]

It just wasn't possible

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. Even if you relied only on cannith crafting to build everything but the silver bow... you could still be equipped well enough the silver bow comes out ahead, and you could kill at a faster rate.

If on the other hand, you are asking for people to collect data on the bow performance on intentionally undergeared toons... I can sympathize with the majority that seems uninterested in participating, or in the results.

[Saekee]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

[cdr]

Bows are terrible in heroic, especially at low/mid levels. Don't use them.

/thread

[MartinusWyllt]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I like that bow, I just forget sometimes to swap it out until after I get confused when I fail to find a trap box...generally have my +search item in my trinket slot, too, rather than the symbiont.

[Lonnbeimnech]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

[FAQ]

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

Don't you be hating on plant bane

[Saekee]

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

+1

[Munkenmo]

Bows are terrible in heroic, especially at low/mid levels. Don't use them.

/thread

Ninjad

[PhotoRob]

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size.

Ok, you have now revealed yourself to be either thoroughly ignorant of statistics or flat out trolling. (As if there was any serious doubt before this.)

There is no statistician on the planet that would consider five data points sufficient when testing a random system. 500 would be considered barely acceptable. And regardless of what the minimum acceptable data size is, more data is *ALWAYS* better.

[AtomicMew]

[QUOTE=Waaye;5242532]

A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range.

One of those most epic self-pwns I have seen on these forums. You've just made it clear to everyone that you don't understand the concepts you're trying to pretend to.

To be more specific, 5 is clearly not an acceptable sample size for the effect size you're looking for. It is possible to define an acceptable sample size based on an estimated effect size. Show this calculation. Otherwise, don't state as a fact things you know you are just making up. If you're actually interested in learning, there are many free online statistics courses.

[sephiroth1084]

The word you're looking for is outlier. But if you only heard someone say it once and never saw it written down I can see how it could sound like "flyer".

If you'd like to see a good example of how to test things I would look at this post for weapon and guard proc rates. Pay special attention to the sample size.

No one is going to test it for you because no one else has any reason to believe there is anything wrong at this point. You can either do a proper test yourself and post the results, or you can stop worrying about convincing other people and use whatever weapon you feel like.

MAN! I'd forgotten just how big a sample size Vanshilar too. Hundreds of thousands of tests per proc! Days of footage to sort through.

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I haven't checked my Bow of Sinew in a while...is it 1.5[d8] these days? If it's not, the Silver Longbow with a +4 Seeker item is about even with Sinew, and with a +6 Seeker is ahead of it at low base damage values (I tested with a 20 base), and still only slightly behind Sinew at a high base damage (I tested with a 50 base). That said, Sinew can more easily bypass more types of DR, although there aren't all that many creatures with DR that Silver Longbow + metal-typed arrows or the AA's Metalline Arrows can't handle.

[Pala-forged]

There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear

OP, 7/10. You got a fair few posts and were a convincing troll, good job.

As for everyone else, come on - nobody could be that ignorant.

[Pala-forged]

I haven't checked my Bow of Sinew in a while...is it 1.5[d8] these days? If it's not, the Silver Longbow with a +4 Seeker item is about even with Sinew, and with a +6 Seeker is ahead of it at low base damage values (I tested with a 20 base), and still only slightly behind Sinew at a high base damage (I tested with a 50 base). That said, Sinew can more easily bypass more types of DR, although there aren't all that many creatures with DR that Silver Longbow + metal-typed arrows or the AA's Metalline Arrows can't handle.

Just 1d8, but it's +8 seeker. (at least according to wiki).
More to the point, it has +1 crit multiplier on 19-20, which makes it useful. Ish.

Regardless of the fact OP is trolling, what ever happened to the good ol' lit II longbow? D:

[Myrddinman]

So a Dwarf walks into a bar, with a Silver Longbow, a Thornlord, and a Bow of the Elements(Air)...