Comm increase with XP Pot, Shrine or VIP Bonus

[Bargol]

My point wasn't VIP's aren't special, or Premiums should get more.

My point was 20% is too much and any solution should be the same for everyone.

Can you point to some VIP who spends $100 a month of TP and a VIUP sub....probably. However I am sure you could find examples of Premiums who drop $200 a month on the game.

The real issue is that the comm drop rate vs. 4200 number is bad and should be fixed. This latest band-aid is not a real fix.

In the end drop the comm rate required by 25 to 30% or increase comm drops by that. That would make it more in line with what you will likely get going from 20 to 28 without only running the highest comm drop quests.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

My replies in green.

I would even say what must be done is when it comes to drops and thing like com/gear etc etc the drop rate should be equal for both groups and balanced for both groups. Once that is achieved THEN you sweeten the pot for vips.

There are many ways to make vip better first would be to stop selling content to them under the name of xpacks. As a premium I expect to have to buy new "adv packs or xpacks" if you want to use shifty wording and races etc but I don't think vip should have to buy this, they should get it free and races etc etc too.

I don't disagree with most of your ideas about how to fix/adjust/sweeten things, you know. I'm not sure about making things equal or balanced.
All I care about is the product I pay for, which is essentially a different packaging and experience of the same game. It's far too cost prohibitive for me to go premium and keep everything I currently enjoy this point. I would lose a lot of things I can't have as Premium (e.g. I maxed out purchasable shared bank space, but I'd lose the VIP space).
As I am somewhat disgruntled with the state of the game, spending that much money and losing conveniences in a game that I ponder quitting every time my VIP premiums are coming due, it ain't going to happen unless DDO undergoes a Renaissance (that would have to be DDO 2.0 at this point).
So, yeah, call me selfish. I'm only worried about the product I pay for and don't have a lot of concern for Premium content or the value they receive for their money.

The only real commonality between the two products is that they need to keep the game fresh and fun.

With my product, I continue paying as long as I'm happy (or not miserable enough to quit). They're just going to keep billing my credit card until I cancel. So there is what I have paid, and what I will pay (assuming continued subscription), and what more I might pay when shopping for conveniences and P-ing2W.
With VIPs and Turbine our continued business is more like a medieval trading of hostages. They have control over the lion share of our inventory, characters, game access and conveniences, but we're holding our metaphorical purse of gold over the edge of a ship.

With the Premium product, there's what you have paid, and what you can be sold; i.e. what you might pay.



With both products, what we have paid means little to the company. It's not even "what have you done for me lately?" it's "what are you doing, and what will you do for me now and tomorrow?" (In other words, "how much more can we get you to spend?")
Past revenues are great, maybe even greatly appreciated, but it's not about what you spent 3 years ago, it's about what this, or next quarter's, or the year's ends revenues are going to be.

Premiums may "own" their content but for the the F2P/Premium business model, it should be expected that everything that can be made so that Premium players will want, or feel compelled to, spend more money in the game will be made this way.
Yeah, I can see how this could surprise a lot of Premium players, and it doesn't do anyone any good to say they shouldn't be surprised. But if you've read this, you have no excuse for being surprised in the future.

I can't imagine a good medieval metaphor for Premiums, except for maybe a gang of mercenaries who, after promising to leave peacefully after having had your women-folk, have had your wife are now eyeing your house and your livestock, and you have a sinking suspicion as to who will be sleeping in the barn tonight. Which, while feels right, isn't as accurate an analogy at all.





BTW SilkofDrasnia:

I would like to point out that when a person responds to dispute a statement or suggestion of inequality, the phrase "at least as..." is usually hyperbole.
It's a statement that the person does not accept any suggestion, without further evidence, that the one is likely to be any less than the other.
It's a rhetorical device intended to back-foot the maker of the first statement, it simply posits that it is possible, according to known facts, that not only is it extremely unlikely to be less than, but it could even exceed the other.

However, unless further case is made for the one being greater it is not implied that it is a necessary conclusion.

No less than, and could possibly be more (but not necessarily more, unless more evidence is given). Right?


I, in no way, stated or implied unequivocally that a group "spent less." I merely made a case for my group not likely spending less and the possibility, not likelihood, of it being more, which I suppose from the other POV means that the other group is possibly, but not necessarily, less.
I gave my reasoning (or some of it) for this, and further added that there was no concrete data available to the argument.

If, by "bigoted," you mean that I am intolerant or feel contempt for the repeatedly asserted opinion of many premium players that they spend more than VIP players, perhaps I am.
It's old, it's tired, no one has ever presented data, and it usually seems to be a premium player trying to make the claim that they spend more. So yeah, intolerance and contempt for an old poor argument is what I have.
So maybe I am a bigot; (does that mean that I need to start more conversations with the phrase "I'm not a racist, but..."?).

You seem intelligent enough. I'd state, unequivocally that your reading comprehension is at least average, and very probably above average. But look how you've jumped to conclusions that I did not present.
If we were to start calling each other names, what do we call a guy who gets extremely defensive/aggressive against statements not actually made?
You weren't being intolerant of a mere suggestion, were you?






I'm going to bow out on this subject, and not hijack this thread any further. I've had at least one of mine badly hijacked, and I apologise to the OP. If people really want to dig into this issue, start a thread in General: "Who spends more?"





Back on Topic:
It's not a bad thing, XP bonuses increasing CoV rates, anything is better than the current situation, but I don't think it's a full solution either.

As I said before, it's the first thing that makes my VIP XP bonus less than completely lacklustre.
But it probably wasn't designed this way to please VIPs. It's more likely that the game mechanics are such that it's enough of a bother to exclude VIP bonus (not to mention it would annoy us), that it's just more expedient, and a better idea to sell it as being a VIP perk.

It's probably been said already, but it's probably not about pleasing us by giving us more Comms. It's about ensuring that sales of XP products don't flag (who's to say this isn't a reaction to seeing just that as soon as people realised XP boosts and being able to farm enough Comms to ETR/ITR within a reasonable time after capping.
Consider that a good number of XP shrines are purchased with AS, it's possible that some guilds would decide that a shrine purchased with platinum would be fine as no one running Epics wanted to use it.


Considering that CoVs are also going to be used as crafting ingredients and used for purchasing items &c, and way the Devs have spoken about watching how CoVs develop (yet I can't recall them ever saying anything that would directly imply a willingness or intention to permanently adjust the rates themselves), and this new development, it seems clear that CoVs are intended to be the new product that brings home the bacon.

I can imagine a conversation like this:

Dev or Bean Counter (or Bean-Counting Dev): "They're really unhappy with the CoV rates, boss. We're not seeing nearly as many sales of ETR and ITR hearts as we expected. Fewer newly-rolled characters are Iconics too. It's almost like some percentage are refusing to do anything that needs the CoVs. There's also been a dip in the sales of XP products. We have to do something."

Producer: "Well, we can't just increase the rates, it ain't gonna happen. It might mollify them, but it'll hurt the revenue stream. Let's put this on the agenda for this upcoming meeting. We'll have to brainstorm ideas to give them more CoVs and still make them pay for reincarnations in the end. While we're at it, we have to think up ways to get the sales of XP products back up. I know there's a solution in there somewhere. I know I don't have to remind you, McGullicuddy, but let's remind the staff that their year end/Christmas bonuses are relying on this new model to increase our revenues."

Dev or Bean Counter (or Bean-Counting Dev): "Shubert, sir."

Producer: "Huh? You're still here? Shubert what?"

Dev or Bean Counter (or Bean-Counting Dev): "My name, sir. You called me McGillicudy."

Producer: "Of course it is! Sorry about that Mc... Shubert."

Dev or Bean Counter (or Bean-Counting Dev): "No problem, boss! And I'm just getting some ideas now, but I'll save them for the meeting to see if it can work."


Producer: "Good man McGill! Now off you go. Shut the door behind you, I've got a conference call to make."

I'm just surprised that they haven't made an Elixir of Commendations Boost yet. Please Devs, when you do, make sure they show up on the Daily Dice rolls, and at least twice as frequently/plentiful on Gold rolls.

[SilkofDrasnia]

My point wasn't VIP's aren't special, or Premiums should get more.

My point was 20% is too much and any solution should be the same for everyone.

Can you point to some VIP who spends $100 a month of TP and a VIUP sub....probably. However I am sure you could find examples of Premiums who drop $200 a month on the game.

The real issue is that the comm drop rate vs. 4200 number is bad and should be fixed. This latest band-aid is not a real fix.

In the end drop the comm rate required by 25 to 30% or increase comm drops by that. That would make it more in line with what you will likely get going from 20 to 28 without only running the highest comm drop quests.

Pretty much what I mean by saying the game can be balanced for both vip and premiums and that we can talk about such things without being at one another throats but alas Turbine seems good at the whole "divide and conquer" thing, I mean while we are bickering we are not standing on the bridge are we.

I think 10% is plenty but I think some other things need to change for vip such as them being charged for xpacks which is wrong. Things like drop rates in game should be balanced for both groups though even if vip may have a small perk that sweetens the pot so to speak.

They shouldn't balance the drop rate around running EE or the fact that vip have an extra 10% drop.

....snip...

If, by "bigoted," you mean that I am intolerant or feel contempt for the repeatedly asserted opinion of many premium players that they spend more than VIP players, perhaps I am.
It's old, it's tired, no one has ever presented data, and it usually seems to be a premium player trying to make the claim that they spend more. So yeah, intolerance and contempt for an old poor argument is what I have.
So maybe I am a bigot; (does that mean that I need to start more conversations with the phrase "I'm not a racist, but..."?).

You seem intelligent enough. I'd state, unequivocally that your reading comprehension is at least average, and very probably above average. But look how you've jumped to conclusions that I did not present.
If we were to start calling each other names, what do we call a guy who gets extremely defensive/aggressive against statements not actually made?
You weren't being intolerant of a mere suggestion, were you?

Actually I am not jumping to any conclusion perhaps you didn't mean to come across as so but you did. You are guilty of doing the exact same thing as those premium you say repeatedly assert their opinion that premium spend more.

This is what makes you just as bigoted as they are, just from the other end of it. Am I being defensive or intolerant? Not at all.

You have made very clear you don't care about premium or the balance between vip and premium players and that is fine. Advocate for vip to improve their lot but leave the premium bashing out of it, it doesn't help your case at all.

Take Bargol for example he made a statement, gave an opinion about 20% being too much and he did it without any bigoted little commentary in the guise of reasoning.

Why didn't you do the same?

I'm going to bow out on this subject, and not hijack this thread any further. I've had at least one of mine badly hijacked, and I apologise to the OP. If people really want to dig into this issue, start a thread in General: "Who spends more?"

If only you had done this from the start heh!

[Oxarhamar]

some other things need to change for vip such as them being charged for xpacks which is wrong. .

Off topic:
Expansions packs are never free to subscribers in any mmo that's how it Xpacks bring in revenue. Now weather or not the newest Xpack was an Xpack or not is a whole different issue.

On Topic:
Yes CoV bonus tied to Xp pots is another money grab but, I guess its what everyone asked for.


Players "XP pot not worth it anymore. I earn less CoV"
Turbine "Here have this CoV bonus with Xp pot"
Players "TAKE MY MONEY!"

[SilkofDrasnia]

Off topic:
Expansions packs are never free to subscribers in any mmo that's how it Xpacks bring in revenue. Now weather or not the newest Xpack was an Xpack or not is a whole different issue.


No really! Glad my point came across.

On Topic:
Yes CoV bonus tied to Xp pots is another money grab but, I guess its what everyone asked for.


Players "XP pot not worth it anymore. I earn less CoV"
Turbine "Here have this CoV bonus with Xp pot"
Players "TAKE MY MONEY!"

Players asked for it? Really?

That's funny because in most threads about covs people are either saying it's fine run EE or lower the 4200 number but I guess you can say players asked for anything if you use made up conversations. lol

[Gizeh]

Don't be stupid, people.

VIP is FOR SURE moneyz, premium is MAYBE money. Every game/company makes sure to make VIP more attractive than premium because with VIP they know they can count on X money, was already paid and done for. If a VIP paid for a year, it doesn't matter that he suddenly has less time to play and must barely touch the game 1-3 months. If a premium doesn't have the time, doesn't like how that new quest pack looks, doesn't feel like it... he just doesn't log for 1-3 months and doesn't spend.

[...]

Nonsense. I've just spent money on a twelve month subscription, and yet there is no guarantee at all that I'll ever spend another cent on the game. Thus the money I spent to be VIP is just as reliable (or unreliable) as the money of a Premium player who just spent money on Turbine Points.

[EllisDee37]

And when you have to many bonuses running your reward might go over 100 and you don't get any coms?

This was my immediate thought as well.

[Oxarhamar]

Players asked for it? Really?

That's funny because in most threads about covs people are either saying it's fine run EE or lower the 4200 number but I guess you can say players asked for anything if you use made up conversations. lol

You sure you have read all the threads on CoV one of the biggest complaints outside of TOO MANY was that using XP boosts was detrimental to gaining enough CoV by Cap along with not stacking in bag. .

Please do try to keep current with the topics.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ot+boost+valor

In this thread OP explains how XP pots among other things are detrimental to CoV by Cap. 3rd response is a prediction of the XP pot CoV boost. The topic goes on and off the topic of XP pots boosting CoV. That's only the first thread I found and quite an old one with Dev communication on it. There are many more but, I don't have time to search them all for you.

[SilkofDrasnia]

You sure you have read all the threads on CoV one of the biggest complaints outside of TOO MANY was that using XP boosts was detrimental to gaining enough CoV by Cap along with not stacking in bag. .

Please do try to keep current with the topics.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ot+boost+valor

In this thread OP explains how XP pots among other things are detrimental to CoV by Cap. 3rd response is a prediction of the XP pot CoV boost. The topic goes on and off the topic of XP pots boosting CoV. That's only the first thread I found and quite an old one with Dev communication on it. There are many more but, I don't have time to search them all for you.

Let me spell it out for you, it was pretty obvious to pretty much everyone they would probably do this, no one really asked for it though. People asked for the cov required to be reduced not for a p2w solution.

Much of the grumble was because we all pretty much expected Turbine to go this route instead of reducing the cov number.

Please try to have a clue and stop replying to me telling me things I already know. It's pretty common knowledge that xp isn't the problem 20-28 and that Turbine were cutting their own throats this way, I even posted such somewhere in one of the threads.

Oh fyi that thread you linked was pretty funny btw seeing as XP pots were never needed for lvl 20-28 as it's easy as all hell to go from 20 to 28.

Go troll someone else to try and appear clever wont ya! Try and start a conversation with someone else, I really have no interest anymore in what you have to say, ty.


Your my very first forum squelch..wow!

[Oxarhamar]

Let me spell it out for you, it was pretty obvious to pretty much everyone they would probably do this, no one really asked for it though. People asked for the cov required to be reduced not for a p2w solution.

Much of the grumble was because we all pretty much expected Turbine to go this route instead of reducing the cov number.

Please try to have a clue and stop replying to me telling me things I already know. It's pretty common knowledge that xp isn't the problem 20-28 and that Turbine were cutting their own throats this way, I even posted such somewhere in one of the threads.

Go troll someone else to try and appear clever wont ya! Try and start a conversation with someone else, I really have no interest anymore in what you have to say, ty.

I could say the same to you for it was you who replied to my post.

You don't want to have a conversation then don't respond to posts your not interested in following through with.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I could say the same to you for it was you who replied to my post.

You don't want to have a conversation then don't respond to posts your not interested in following through with.

Just to set the record straight you initiated conversation with me by quoting me and going on with a ridiculous reply.

Good day and

/squelched

[Oxarhamar]

Just to set the record straight you initiated conversation with me by quoting me and going on with a ridiculous reply.

Good day and

/squelched

For the record the exact thread I link does in fact have players asking for the XP pot CoV change.

While your the most aggressive sarcastic poster on this thread insulting others and calling any fact contrary to your opinion either anecdotal or made up you sure get your feeling hurt when someone proves you dead wrong.

[Grecan]

Tomes don't work as some rough and quick calculation in the above thread. Not fully tested but imho, how they worded it, they are planning to not make Tomes work. They clearly stated which bonus work. Also, there is a thread just right above this one. I'd say let's keep the discussion in one place. NVM: Saw this was moved from General.

Did some tests on lamaland, posted on the other thread:

A break in the Ice Epic Elite:

Base (wiki): 60
Shrine: 3 (5%)
Voice: 3 (5%)
VIP: 6 (10%)
Tome: 6 (10%)
Pot: 18 (30%)
Total: 96

Reward: 89

The Deal and the Demon Epic Elite:

Base (wiki): 40
Shrine: 2 (5%)
Voice: 2 (5%)
VIP: 4 (10%)
Tome: 4 (10%)
Pot: 12 (30%)
Total: 64

Reward: 59

So... tome doesn't count and we are loosing 1 CoV somewhere.

If this is true, it's totally unfair! Because it excludes one type of xp boost from the extra Comms. And it's simply against the reasoning for the change (more xp = more comms, so that you're closer to ERing with Comms when you reach level cap). And in general, i agree with the reasoning behind the changes, this seems like a move on the right direction.

it would add more value to the epic tomes and people would be more likely to buy them if they were also considered as one of the items you can use for increased Comm rewards. hint hint

That's true

And when you have to many bonuses running your reward might go over 100 and you don't get any coms?

Heh, i hope they've figured a way to overcome this.

of course they already have your money for buying that why would they want to increase the value of something they have already sold? To sell more? it would have to be a significant increase for coms to get people to bite on epic tomes of xp.

If they have based a decision to exclude Epic Tomes of Learning from the formula on some cunning calculations about how profitable those tomes are, disregarding reason, fairness, and consistency, then i have to say: shame on them!
The latter qualities i mentioned are what i respect in life in general, and that includes games as well, in contrast with myopic short-term money-grabbing calculation schemes.

[Shadow7375]

Well, any increase is nice and welcomed, at least by me :-)

But what I thought is most important, is that CoV belong inside the end chest like tokens used to be and not on the end reward list.

This should change too !!!!

[Grecan]

Well, any increase is nice and welcomed, at least by me :-)

Well, by me, too

And in general, i agree with the reasoning behind the changes, this seems like a move on the right direction.

So, kudos for moving towards the right direction, but that should be a given, unlike making incomplete/inconsistent changes. And that's why the overall tone of my post is kinda harsh.

It looks to me kinda like someone seeing an old-lady drop her wallet on the street by accident without noticing it, and picks it up with the noble intention to give it back to her, but first takes a good portion of the money for himself! xD rofl

But what I thought is most important, is that CoV belong inside the end chest like tokens used to be and not on the end reward list.

This should change too !!!!

I tend to agree with this.