Tested QP changes (same facts from my tests)

[eclipse668]

So?

And not true on good builds.

a *good dps build* is a specialist (and won't even have access to QP due to 15 lvls monk being in your way).

this thread is just about mixing up different builds and scenarios until you have a matching picture to project your assumptions on.

[Ayseifn]

I don't get all the posts about how it's better/worse than wizard insta kills when assassin is a more apples to apples comparison. Only thing I take from that is QP is either still way OP, assassinate is garbage or some combo of the two.

[Vanhooger]

I think most of you never played a high DC Qp monk. I did. I tell you something, it's far from overpowered. I was running with a friend Esos centered and compared to my Qp build looks garbage. I kill one mob, he already killed 5 without instakill. If you go for high quivering palm your dps is soo bad, and then try to kill a named on EE with that dps, you probably kill one for next year maybe, while my friend full dps build just eat him in few min.
After that I did a centered kensai build and now EE mobs are way easier to manage/kill. Now tell me what is overpowered.

Nerf the stuipd centered build and Esos + stupid monkchers & shiradi, and then we'll see more build out there.

If they nerf Qp i dont care at all. it's a garbage build.

[Marten]

Marten,

I have been a fan of your ideas and posts over my time here. I am definitely bothered by how the proposed changes would affect your character. Now, I agree wholeheartedly that the changes we are seeing are too harsh. I'd think anyone with half a brain working would agree with you on that.

1st) I am sorry it has taken me so long to reply. When I make posts like the last two in this thread, it takes a lot out of me and I have to step away from the forums. 2nd) I am glad my past posts have been helpful, its comments like this that keep me posting. I try to be fair minded and tend to mostly relay information I have found in my tests so others can make objective suggestions, with occasional suggestions of my own, but mostly I try to educate the player-base and the devs to information that may have been missed. I am happy to have your support that in the first stage of this change has gone too far and further adjustments should be considered.

Yet, I really don't understand how it is that you find having a character with up to 18 dc higher than a completionist, maxed geared Necro Wizard Specialist to be logical. Have you considered this at all?

Might I suggest that a part of your lack of understanding is that you have not played a monk, dedicated, for the last 3 and 1/2 years as I have. Where was the forum out-cry when light monks like myself had no DPS or anything else other than a 1 minute buff that helped save mana and only got in groups for that or because they just wanted a 6th person to fill the slot. While I have advocated for changes and fixes, I cannot recall EVER going to another class' forums or threads asking for them to be nerfed. I don't measure my class and its level of fun it brings me by any other class or build. I support strong builds and fun groups. You will never find "envy" or "hate" based posts by me. The is a game of cooperation! I cannot for the life of me understand why any person would argue for the nerf of a WAI, functional, useful, and fun skill or feat. I hear the word "balance" used a lot, and I continue to ask, "balance" as compared to what?! Some could argue that "balance" is monks having a borked and over-powered ability for the next three years to make up for the last 3 years of being all but useless. I'm sorry to anyone that feels QP of OP and that some how hurts your class, but I again ask, where were you 3 years ago?

This had to change. Two reasons I can cite from my playing experiences sums up why pretty nicely. Firstly, everyone and their Mom were starting to abandon any other type of Monk build in favor of a max wisdom instakiller. The dc's they could achieve completely invalidated completionist arcane and divine casters.

I honestly feel sorry for those that do involve themselves in the class envy debates. Again, I don't get into the envy/class/build quagmire, but I will say that as the game evolves so does the hamster-wheel and what made a build class "uber" at one phase of the game will not always be the same. My time is better spent advocating for changes that make my class better, more fun, and valuable to the group. Period.

Secondly, monks often get offhand attempts off of one ability use - much like two weapon fighting paladins with smites. I've seen monks cleaving and taking out groups of mobs with this ability. This method of play was broken.

I have personally never done this and wouldn't even if I know it was possible. If true, this would be something that seems to be not-WAI and the CD timer of cleave, greater cleave and QP should be linked to fix such an issue.

Do I believe and support the current proposed changes? Heck no. I actually like the suggestions Andoris posted in another thread. And I feel rather strongly as a divine and arcane caster player that melee should not meet or surpass their abilities.

I'm glad you don't support the current change. I have made my own suggestions and have not yet read Andoris, so I cannot comment. You are entitled to your point of view, in this matter, we do not agree. You don't see me arguing that arcane casters shouldn't be running around with more HPs than my monk or having access to equipment based fortification. This isn't PnP, its DDO.

Should it [QP] be viable, and useable in Epic Elite content? Yes.

Glad to have your support on this.

Should it be be so strong that it dwarfs the capabilities of completionist min/maxed builds? No.

I don't agree that it "dwarfs" these builds, but lets say you're right. How do you fix it so that a single life monk and monk splash builds can't reach these levels while someone like me who has dedicated years to his monk can have a useful QP DC. If we follow your logic to its conclusion, the only way to fix this is to change the monk PL feat and possible completionist feat to include a buff to whatever is decided in the end to make up the QP DC. That may be one option that looks easy on paper, but I have experience with the developers and rarely is it the case that what looks easy on paper is easy to adjust in game code. But here is my fix: Move QP to level 20. Make the DC = (Monk level * 2) + Wis mod + (4 * QP fails). You may say that this does not address the single-life-full-monk. I would reply that, "without the extra 4 points to the build, it makes a difference and if someone wants to make a single-life, non-dps, trash-mob slaying build... let them!"

I do empathize with your position on this matter. And I hope that the devs discuss and choose to implement any other of the more reasonable suggestions offered by players with experience in the game. Nonetheless, it's time for melee instakill dc's considerably higher than dedicated casters to go away.

Again, I thank you for your support. I am sorry you feel my current build is unworthy of its current ability and that somehow hurts your game. I would hope that you class empathy grows while your class envy vanishes.

I really need more signature space . . .

EDIT: Whoohoo! it fits!

D*M! I was so hoping it would be me that got quoted! Had I known it was a space issue I would have tried to be more brief!

[Daze]

Having recently played a QP monk with a DC in the mid 70's for the flavor of it (and a monk past life while taking a break from the shuricannon) I feel the need to chime in here. Especially considering that was the 17th life of that toon and took a fair bit of farming to get to that DC ... IE it isn't as easy as you think without completely gimping every other aspect of the build.

Comparing this particular skill DC to others (be they spells or tacticals) in some kind of semblance of caring about balance being broken is BS. Because if balance is your goal you would be asking to unnerf said abilities rather than bring this one down.... other than your personal desire to see monks nerfed (admittedly every high end build these days has some monk in them).

QP works well as it is right now on live servers. I don't think they should change a thing. A DC of 75 is still not a guarantee of success in EE. I'm glad I got to play it and see for myself ... prenerf.




Bottomline though? We are talking about trash mobs! Who really gives a flying **** about the mass death of trash mobs at the hands of our epic avatars after we put the effort into making it feasible in the first place? In all seriousness we are talking about getting to the end fight being a little easier as opposed to the furyshot making the end fight a 20second anti-climax .... and somehow we are discussing balancing issues?

Stop blowing smoke and fix the GD game..... if you need a list of stuff to fix scroll up and page back.

[JOTMON]

I could accept leaving it as it is now but with a cooldown of 5 minutes.
Basically it is a no-fail kill and you should be taxed very heavily on the use of it!

Why so heavy.. Power Word Kill... no save only has a 2 minute cool down.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Power_Word:_Kill

[Marten]

QP 2nd pass, better than I hoped. Thank you.

NEW: Restored general Tactical combat boosts to Quivering Palm (but not Sundering effects specifically).
This is the full text of Quivering Palm:
“Melee Attack: Deliver a fatal attack by sending waves of vibrations through your target. A successful Fortitude save negates this effect. (DC = 10 + 1/2 Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier + Tactics Bonus)

07 Martens on Lamannia - GM Earth GMoF no geared nor ship buffs with Legendary Tatics Twist (2nd pass)

Naked DC is 49

VS

03 Martens on live - GM Earth GMoF no geared nor ship buffs with Legendary Tatics Twist

Naked DC is 49

The CD is still 6 seconds, so with the +4 Perserverance Bonus, it could take up to 4 tries to get back to the DC I had with the wraps since we are losing up to 11 (0, 4, 8, 12). I don't like it, but I can live with it. When this goes live, my QP DC will be 62 with my gear with a way to improve per attempt. This settles the matter for me, I hope it settles the matter for everyone else.

[Marten]

Something kept tickling my brain. Something was wrong with the numbers... it's too high. Sometimes I hate my brain!



So, I went back and found the issue...





...and now have to ask if Mighty Sundering from the Half-Orc tree adding to QP is WAI?

I then wanted to be sure that Shattering items were actually not adding to QP.



So, I added a Shattering Short Sword



So, I can confirm that Shattering items are now not adding to QP, that leaves the first question of Mighty Sundering WAI still standing. I don't want to lose 3 more points, but I also am not going to ignore the issue. That's just not how I work.

[Teh_Troll]

Stupid question . . . with the new formula what's the max DC you could get with a 70 Wisdom?

[moo_cow]

I think most of you never played a high DC Qp monk. I did. I tell you something, it's far from overpowered. I was running with a friend Esos centered and compared to my Qp build looks garbage. I kill one mob, he already killed 5 without instakill. If you go for high quivering palm your dps is soo bad, and then try to kill a named on EE with that dps, you probably kill one for next year maybe, while my friend full dps build just eat him in few min.
After that I did a centered kensai build and now EE mobs are way easier to manage/kill. Now tell me what is overpowered.

Nerf the stuipd centered build and Esos + stupid monkchers & shiradi, and then we'll see more build out there.

If they nerf Qp i dont care at all. it's a garbage build.

Agreed with this, the first paragraph at least :P

I balanced between dps and qp, having roughly a 50 str (Don't have scream or anything), a 81 stunning fist dc and a 77 qp (or something like that). The trash dps is good, just to make it seem as good as it is blitz needs to be nerfed. But the red named damage is bad when you come to a red named monks are bad dps and that's that. Blitzing IMO is what needs nerfing here. Overall though monks are sort of meh dps, decent on trash, bad on red names. Even a maxed str monk wouldn't be good on red names, it just doesn't work, overall monks need a dps boost.

[Teh_Troll]

Agreed with this, I have a 77 qp dc that I run with but I am not maxed, I have a balance so I didn't max wisdom.

So losing 10 from that would still put you 1 away from a maxed PM on a non-maxed monk.

Yeah . . . that's balanced.

I swear will you monks be happy unless you can walk in, press a button, and have everything just die?

You want max insta-killing ability and great red-named DPS on the same toon . . . and you think that's reasonable?

[moo_cow]

So losing 10 from that would still put you 1 away from a maxed PM on a non-maxed monk.

Yeah . . . that's balanced.

I swear will you monks be happy unless you can walk in, press a button, and have everything just die?

You want max insta-killing ability and great red-named DPS on the same toon . . . and you think that's reasonable?

Umm if you read the post I wrote that monks are garbage dps, and they need a boost. I don't recall asking for 80 qp and the bestest dps in the game. Their instakilling and trash beating ability is beaten by everything and the red named dps is worse than everything. Umm what I want is balance, trying reading what I wrote before making statements. All you want is for monks to have bad trash beating ability and bad red named ability. Yea ... that's balanced.

Just throwing it out there but if monks had 80 qp dc and good red names dps, than they would be alright as far as things go. Still fury archer and sorcs would destroy their dps.

[Teh_Troll]

Umm if you read the post I wrote that monks are garbage dps, and they need a boost. I don't recall asking for 80 qp and the bestest dps in the game. Their instakilling and trash beating ability is beaten by everything and the red named dps is worse than everything. Umm what I want is balance, trying reading what I wrote before making statements. All you want is for monks to have bad trash beating ability and bad red named ability. Yea ... that's balanced.

The monks I run with don't have garbage DPS. No it's not as good as a kensai but it sure as heck ain't garbage.

but then again they are good at DDO.

[moo_cow]

The monks I run with don't have garbage DPS. No it's not as good as a kensai but it sure as heck ain't garbage.

but then again they are good at DDO.

Compared to fury archers and sorcs yes they do have garbage dps. Especially blitzing melee's, if you think monk with a 80 qp can keep up with a blitzing melee than you are outright crazy. A kensai will have a **** ton more dps on red names and a **** ton more dps on trash. So neither of these attributes are better than a kensai, so why should people play subpar characters and why are monks over powered, oh plz tell me oh great troll

[Teh_Troll]

Compared to fury archers and sorcs yes they do have garbage dps.

Compare them to the other melees if you want an apples to apples comparison. Monkchers are a broken munckin build (that also should be nerfed) and sorcs are limited by SP (I know . . . we have pots . . . etc . . .)

Or just admit you want to press your "I WIN!" button that kills everything once you walk into a quest. It's okay, it won't lower my opinion of you.

[DrawingGuy]

Stupid question . . . with the new formula what's the max DC you could get with a 70 Wisdom?

Because cutting off all DPS to min max for a single ability that only works on white trash mobs is the best possible way to build. Exactly like how a wizard boosting INT only increases their Necro DCs, which obviously only increases Finger of Death.

Why do people continue to think that a min-max WIS Monk QP DC vs a min-max Wizard Necro DC is a viable bar at which to limit Quivering Palm? Especially using math that the Monk is going to go melee in EE in Water stance where the mob can turn around and plink him for 300+ while the Wiz is at range. Luckily that Wis monk can then go and hit the boss in the sub-100s with his all consuming power that his QP gave him to kill white trash one mob at a time instead of doing 10x the damage to all the mobs and the bosses.

But to answer your question, yes, a Monk could still potentially reach higher than a Pale Master - 73 with all EDs, feats, racial, +6 item. Cry at the sheer unfairness of the Monk QPing the mob you just failed to finger.

You're "great DPS monk friends" are likely not running 6 WIS GMoF. GMoF is a massive DPS loss (though EIN is of course a great white trash killer). Play a WIS based Monk in GMoF. Then look at any other builds (centered kensei, monkcher, fire angels, shiradis). When you can hop down and kill the ENTIRE group of trash mobs without insta-kills in the time it takes the monk to kill one or two (unless he has EIN charged) with the current high QP DCs and then proceed to hit the boss for 5k+ (or in the case of Fury, 20k+). WIS Monk DPS in GMoF is not even on the same planet with DPS, so not sure how you're defining them as "great DPS".


@taurean430 - They REMOVED the ability for QP to trigger off double strike, off hand strikes, or cleaves. You're only ever going to get one kill (assuming you succeed) off that QP. I only ever once got a multi-kill with QP, and that was off sheer luck pre-U19.

[Teh_Troll]

I knwo math never solves anything . . . but . . .

For those of you who are bad at DDO here's a break-down . . .A guildie of mine came up with a 15/3/2 splash build . . . 3 ranger fro 100% off-hand attacks (important for MOAR DPS!) and 2 fighter for tactics and 30% haste-boost (again, MOAR DPS!)

Seriously folks, that 3/2 splash fixes any DPS shortcomings you think you have unless your toon is terrible.

So here is a breakdown of a max QP DC for the 15/3/2 split is . . .

Quivering Palm:
10 base
7 monk
6 exc combat mastery
6 twist
2 epic destiny feat
3 kensei
3 past life
3 grandmaster
x wisdom

So it's 40+ Wisdom mod potential DC. Sure you need some PLs but EVERYTHING good does as well.

My PM has a 74 sustainable INT. This translates to a 68 Necro DC.

A Monk with a 74 Wisdom (which I don't think is possible . . .) could get a 72 QP DC. Which at 100% off-hand the mob will need to make TWO saves to not die (correct me if I'm wrong on that).

A 66 Wisdom (more realistic) will yield the same DC as a 74 INT. Not sure how it translates with divine casters.

So even with these nerfs your potential DCs are STILL HIGHER than a caster at the same level of stats. If you need even bigger easy buttons I'm not sure what I can tell you that won't get me another infraction.

[moo_cow]

Compare them to the other melees if you want an apples to apples comparison. Monkchers are a broken munckin build (that also should be nerfed) and sorcs are limited by SP (I know . . . we have pots . . . etc . . .)

Or just admit you want to press your "I WIN!" button that kills everything once you walk into a quest. It's okay, it won't lower my opinion of you.

I compared them to kensai's, at least kensai's have good trash dps and good red named dps. Monks have good trash dps and bad named dps. (only decent trash dps when you compare it to blitz)

Monkchers may be broken and need nerfing, but sorcs are barely limited by their sp, name a quest where they run into sp issues? You can't unless you don't know how to manage spell points while still killing everything. The only 2 quests in the game where I can see a sorc needing sp pots is breaking the ranks and wgu and that's only if you are soloing. Some people don't care and decide to drink some pots but they are not limited by their spell points.

[Teh_Troll]

Because cutting off all DPS to min max for a single ability that only works on white trash mobs is the best possible way to build. Exactly like how a wizard boosting INT only increases their Necro DCs, which obviously only increases Finger of Death.

Why do people continue to think that a min-max WIS Monk QP DC vs a min-max Wizard Necro DC is a viable bar at which to limit Quivering Palm? Especially using math that the Monk is going to go melee in EE in Water stance where the mob can turn around and plink him for 300+ while the Wiz is at range. Luckily that Wis monk can then go and hit the boss in the sub-100s with his all consuming power that his QP gave him to kill white trash one mob at a time instead of doing 10x the damage to all the mobs and the bosses.

But to answer your question, yes, a Monk could still potentially reach higher than a Pale Master - 73 with all EDs, feats, racial, +6 item. Cry at the sheer unfairness of the Monk QPing the mob you just failed to finger.

You're "great DPS monk friends" are likely not running 6 WIS GMoF. GMoF is a massive DPS loss (though EIN is of course a great white trash killer). Play a WIS based Monk in GMoF. Then look at any other builds (centered kensei, monkcher, fire angels, shiradis). When you can hop down and kill the ENTIRE group of trash mobs without insta-kills in the time it takes the monk to kill one or two (unless he has EIN charged) with the current high QP DCs and then proceed to hit the boss for 5k+ (or in the case of Fury, 20k+). WIS Monk DPS in GMoF is not even on the same planet with DPS, so not sure how you're defining them as "great DPS".


@taurean430 - They REMOVED the ability for QP to trigger off double strike, off hand strikes, or cleaves. You're only ever going to get one kill (assuming you succeed) off that QP. I only ever once got a multi-kill with QP, and that was off sheer luck pre-U19.

So in other news . . . you think it's fair that you can walk into a quest, press your "I WIN!" button, and have all the mobs die before you.

Got it.

[moo_cow]

So in other news . . . you think it's fair that you can walk into a quest, press your "I WIN!" button, and have all the mobs die before you.

Got it.

Nice argument.