Tested QP changes (same facts from my tests)

[Teh_Troll]

Make flurry of blows dodge bonus worked only unarmed; move crit multiplier to tier 4 fire stance (buff other stances a bit at tier 4 too); move monk incorporeal to level 18 ninja spy enhancement; maybe move the bonus feats monks get to say 1,6,11; bring back tactics bonus to qp but keep sundering only item bonuses off, increase cooldown to 45 secs; make dance of flowers destiny enhancement work only unarmed.

Throw in a hjeal and I'll /sign this.

But the whole 10k stars/Double-Shot thingy needs to be looked at as well. I think removing the insanely stupid cooldown from double-shot and this would be fine.

These are just the nerfs, there will need to be a few buffs here and there to help out.

Can we just stop at the nerfs?

[Epitome]

Make flurry of blows dodge bonus worked only unarmed; move crit multiplier to tier 4 fire stance (buff other stances a bit at tier 4 too); move monk incorporeal to level 18 ninja spy enhancement; maybe move the bonus feats monks get to say 1,6,11; bring back tactics bonus to qp but keep sundering only item bonuses off, increase cooldown to 45 secs; make dance of flowers destiny enhancement work only unarmed. These are just the nerfs, there will need to be a few buffs here and there to help out.

Combined those are rather strong but reasonable in addressing the monks splashes. Mostly I'd rather see other classes/builds more viable than to knock monks down to this degree but I guess doing so would reduce the overall challenge this game yet retains.

[xTethx]

Throw in a hjeal and I'll /sign this.

But the whole 10k stars/Double-Shot thingy needs to be looked at as well. I think removing the insanely stupid cooldown from double-shot and this would be fine.




Can we just stop at the nerfs?

Agreed on the double-shot. We could stop at all the nerfs, but there need to be a few buffs to the non-wrap users with all those suggested tweaks.

[maddmatt70]

My argument was that QP does not make a monk a EE solo powerhouse, not even by a long shot. I think losing the sundering item effects is fine (-10 to -13 depending on the wraps/items) but no more than that. I feel that most of the monk OP powerhouses don't even have 15 levels of monk for QP.

I don't see how, as a melee, you can solo say the new optional skelly in haunted halls that hits 450 a swing on a toon with 60 PRR, 26% dodge, displace, incorp without stepping out to heal. Although I would gladly feel corrected if I seen a video of this or other similiar melee solo EE boss fights.

I agree that defensively monks should not be as good as they are (their advantage is strength in avoidance) compared with an armored character.

A melee could have better stats then that defensively. A monk could have 120+ prr, over 30 dodge, incorp and could hit yourself with cocoon and regenerating lay on hands without stepping out to heal or chug those silver flames. Problem is the offense starts sucking at some point when you build up the defenses enough and eventually it takes forever and a day to kill things. I have a character right now that can solo most anything on ee, but not in any sort of reasonable time unlike those shiradi and monkchers which can do things in a reasonable time. Now with a bunch of past lives and all sorts of things I think one of the two handed melee could get there defensively and do quite a bit of offense with Legendary Dreadnaught..

[Raiderone]

Can somebody explain to me why something that is NOT a tactical feat should get a tactical feat bonus?

This is Touch of Death 2.0. Give monks a ridiculous ability to sell monk in the store, then nerf it to hell to correct what should be obvious to anyone reasonable what was a mistake.

PS: A cool-down change would have been fine as well. The insane DCs with a 1 minute cooldown wuld have been fine. It's a 1/week ability in PnP, never should have been a 6-second cooldown in the first place. I strongly expect this is part of a bigger "insta-kill pass" as we have too many people who their DC 55 gimps complaining their spells won't land in EE.

I agree with some stuff...

I never felt that sundering should have been added to QP. Although I do believe QP was always very weak past Heroic. Sundering is a Tactical Feat. QP is not a Sundering feat.
Maybe another type of bonus needs to be applied but not sundering or any other tactical feat.

75 DC with 6sec cool down is way OP. I play monks all the time, have four toons with monk (one pure). But that doesnt keep me from being objective.
Why do Monks get Stunning Fist with a 6sec cool down and Stunning Blow is 15 second cool down? Because Turbine sells MONks???

Even the DC calculations for Stunning Fist are way better than Stunning Blow. So my point is that it's not just QP that is OP. Stunning Fist is too.

And another thing i've noticed..thanks to tactical feats...fighter splashes can have even more DC's...

[Raoull]

I think part of the DC issue is that I doubt the game engine can handle something being a "Tactical Feat" that doesn't count as stun/trip/sunder. Turbine should code in a 4th "generic" tactical feat, where only general bonuses work, and then apply that to QP... and the rest of the Monk finishers/moves with useless DCs.... And Assassinate. Possibly other rejiggering will need to be redone, but then DCs can be figured out while taking into account gear slotting issues. With gear slots, you have a wider arena of conceptual design to play in. A toon could go all out and have an awesome ability, or they could get a more reasonable ability and save a bit of build space or gear space. Or they save both, but the ability will probably end up nigh useless.

SF vs. SB... I do think that SF should be superior, just due to the handwrap constraint, which is a pretty huge factor. The Ki constraint come into play at times as well. And the DC isn't as far off as it seems, as there are quite a few more sources of Str than there are of Wis. That said, both advantages may currently be too high. I don't think there is quite +28 of strength over wis available (although there might be .... Fighter/Pal could get 8 from power surge, maybe 12 from DM and 5 from Scream), and perhaps the 2.5X faster cooldown is too low.

One design piece that hasn't been mentioned much is Ki costs. A higher Ki cost would definitely cut into use. As it stands, on my monk, in a trash fight I'll can run out of Ki just using SF & QP. I'll nearly break even, so if I'm well stocked up the risk is low. But in QMOF, when Drifting Lotus becomes a regular part of the rotation, Ki costs come into play much more. On my toon I haven't made any concessions for Ki other than gear. While I can live within my current Ki restraints, it does mean I switch between trash fighting Ki moves and DPS moves which I'll only really use on bosses. Any increase at all will force me to either lose something else for more Ki (enhancements for example, if I try to fit in Crane), or the cooldowns themselves start to become less important and Ki costs become the main limiting factor.

[LavidDynch]

I agree with some stuff...

I never felt that sundering should have been added to QP. Although I do believe QP was always very weak past Heroic. Sundering is a Tactical Feat. QP is not a Sundering feat.
Maybe another type of bonus needs to be applied but not sundering or any other tactical feat.

75 DC with 6sec cool down is way OP. I play monks all the time, have four toons with monk (one pure). But that doesnt keep me from being objective.
Why do Monks get Stunning Fist with a 6sec cool down and Stunning Blow is 15 second cool down? Because Turbine sells MONks???

Even the DC calculations for Stunning Fist are way better than Stunning Blow. So my point is that it's not just QP that is OP. Stunning Fist is too.

And another thing i've noticed..thanks to tactical feats...fighter splashes can have even more DC's...

so you can take out 1 trash mob every 6 seconds in easy EE, big deal, a good PM can take out 20 trash mobs in the same time.

what happens when that red named dude at the end of each quest shows his face? oh yeah then they are the worst member of the party, by miles...

Reality is, monks in the current state are cute and thats it. (not talking about monkchers or centered kensai etc)

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

so you can take out 1 trash mob every 6 seconds in easy EE, big deal, a good PM can take out 20 trash mobs in the same time.

what happens when that red named dude at the end of each quest shows his face? oh yeah then they are the worst member of the party, by miles...

Reality is, monks in the current state are cute and thats it. (not talking about monkchers or centered kensai etc)

I'll give this whine a 9/10.

[moo_cow]

so you can take out 1 trash mob every 6 seconds in easy EE, big deal, a good PM can take out 20 trash mobs in the same time.

what happens when that red named dude at the end of each quest shows his face? oh yeah then they are the worst member of the party, by miles...

Reality is, monks in the current state are cute and thats it. (not talking about monkchers or centered kensai etc)

I am the world's biggest monk fan, but you're right, they are cute at best and that's non arguable.

I will say this, quivering palm was over powered in its own sort of way that it should never have had such a high dc and low cool down. But any blitzing melee, any kind of caster, any ranged destroy a monks dps, they are weak. Gmof gives monks almost no benefit aside from the +3 tactics and ein, starting next update gmof will be unheard of. Don't get me wrong monks are pretty sweet damage on single target stunned mobs, but now that there is more than 5 mobs at a time and no mob takes more than 5 seconds to kill, they are meh at best even with the current QP dc. Monks need an overall boost, contrary to morons saying they are OP, it's just ridiculous. QP needed a nerf, what is presented looks too heavy to me(just from people's screen shots haven't actually logged on lam) but yes monks overall need an everything boost.

[Certon]

Solution:

1) Get rid of the cooldown on QP (well, make it 1-3 seconds.)
2) Make QP have to charge up via vorpals
3) 10 charges on QP and it becomes available
4) QP is autohit and not affected by doublestrike
5) Leave QP DC as it is on live.

Problem solved.

Or, barring that, make QP like it is on Lammaland, but sprinkle a new suffix in the game that increases the DC of QP and Assassinate.

[Qhualor]

so you can take out 1 trash mob every 6 seconds in easy EE, big deal, a good PM can take out 20 trash mobs in the same time.

what happens when that red named dude at the end of each quest shows his face? oh yeah then they are the worst member of the party, by miles...

Reality is, monks in the current state are cute and thats it. (not talking about monkchers or centered kensai etc)

You either never have played a monk or failed at building one.

[LavidDynch]

You either never have played a monk or failed at building one.

take your well build QP monk and solo EE DQ. comeback and post me the results.

[oweieie]

Teh_Troll, after the customary and habitual (yes, they mean the same thing, that's what makes it funny and they are big words for a troll making it doubly funny!) premature spouts of the mouth, then agrees with me? Oh my... time to rethink my suggested solution! Or, maybe, he found that +10 Int tasty ham I left in his cave Don't worry Teh_Troll, it will wear-off.

The only reason everyone doesn't have Teh_Troll on ignore is because it is hilarious watching him try to count to potato.

[Teh_Troll]

The only reason everyone doesn't have Teh_Troll on ignore is because it is hilarious watching him try to count to potato.

I really need more signature space . . .

EDIT: Whoohoo! it fits!

[stoopid_cowboy]

if you think a melee insta-kill with a 6-second cooldown and a DC 10 higher than a maxed PM was reasonable . . .

I could accept leaving it as it is now but with a cooldown of 5 minutes.
Basically it is a no-fail kill and you should be taxed very heavily on the use of it!

[Qhualor]

take your well build QP monk and solo EE DQ. comeback and post me the results.

I don't have a monk. I just play the class for past lives.

so if I did have a monk, soloing EE DQ would convince you that monks are better than cute?

interesting form of proof you want, but whether I could or not or someone else could or not doesn't change the fact that you obviously have never played a monk or failed at building one.

[LavidDynch]

... or not doesn't change the fact that you obviously have never played a monk or failed at building one.

How can i never have played a monk, if i always succeed to build one... and that was a fact?

[Qhualor]

How can i never have played a monk, if i always succeed to build one... and that was a fact?

if you succeeded at building one than why did you ask me to go solo EE DQ to prove that QP monks can solo it? you should already know. does soloing a EE raid prove anything no matter what build you are playing? if a QP monk only relies on QP than I would say its a weak build. there is so much more they can do besides insta kill mobs. it still sounds like you don't know anything about monks.

[moo_cow]

if you succeeded at building one than why did you ask me to go solo EE DQ to prove that QP monks can solo it? you should already know. does soloing a EE raid prove anything no matter what build you are playing? if a QP monk only relies on QP than I would say its a weak build. there is so much more they can do besides insta kill mobs. it still sounds like you don't know anything about monks.

If you are trying to argue than maybe your idea of good dps isn't all that great. Monks are at the bottom of the list compared to sorcs/ranged characters and even fighters now. Their red boss damage is not all that good.

[Teh_Troll]

If you are trying to argue than maybe your idea of good dps isn't all that great. Monks are at the bottom of the list compared to sorcs/ranged characters and even fighters now. Their red boss damage is not all that good.

So?

And not true on good builds.