Suggested Balance Changes

[DrawingGuy]

Time to create a popcorn thread.

What I think should have been done instead of screwing QP over to help balance:
- REMOVE Monk Forms as a selectable feat and make it auto-grant ONLY at the appropriate Monk levels. This shaves off some of the crit profile of Centered Kensei making monk splash more of a survivability choice rather than survival AND DPS.

- Fix Fury Epic Moment to only build with melee like the description states.

- Increase the "shared" cooldown of Manyshot and 10k Stars from 30s to 60s. This effectively takes the overpowered uptime of multishot with only 10 or 30s gaps to 30 or 40s gaps (IE 50s of multishots in a 2 min span instead of the current 1 min 20s in a 2 min span).

- Take a close look at all classes capstones. Many are just pulled from the old capstones that have since been made (or always been) weak and negligable by the power creep. Some classes' capstones are so bad, such as the Barbarian Frenzied, they are actually detrimental and make your character WORSE. A cross class should NOT be able to do what a pure class is designed to do better than that pure class. I have a thousand ideas on how they could be buffed, or completely scrapped and redone... but the key factor is they need to be worked on.

- Pull the Class Enhancement tiers further out of reach - preferrably doubling past the first (so 1 > 4 > 6 > 8 > 10 levels in that class). Part of what made cross classing so immensely more powerful is that you can reach many of their powerful abilities with just a little splash, leaving only a few core moves as the incentives of staying pure. Yes it's true that as you level up you could no longer dive straight through a single tree with minimum level investment... but why is that a bad thing? Diversify a bit and hit what helps you as you level and then respec once you unlock that tear - we've done it for years in the old enhancement pass as we waited for expensive specializations to be unlocked the respending. This change won't kill diversity in builds or multiclassing, it instead would make multiclassing a choice of utility/purpose rather than required since all the power is low hanging fruit.

[Therrias]

TL;DR: You're a hater and you hate multiclassing.

[DrawingGuy]

Yep, which is why every single character I have is or will be multi-classed with the exception of characters that I haven't played since the enhancement pass. Pre-U19 it was about 50/50.

[Qhualor]

1. yes. they should be auto granted according to monk levels.

2. I need to go back playing my barb because I don't remember this being a problem.

3. I say detach 10k stars from zen archery.

4. some capstones need buffing. some need rework. some are fine. overall, the capstones isn't whats deterring players from playing pure, its the low hanging fruit.

5. I assume you mean prestige tree core enhancements? there are no class enhancements which I think is what we really need to make pure more attractive. class trees would help a lot more and some of the enhancements that are in prestige trees that players choose with their splashes wouldn't be able to get them if its too high up the tree or too costly. more choices is better and it creates a better balance with pure and mix builds.

[Sonos]

A common thread on these kinds of posts are always to "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy" rather than "buff my toon or lower incoming EE dmg for melee huggy bear toons".


This should change.

[Teh_Troll]

A common thread on these kinds of posts are always to "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy" rather than "buff my toon or lower incoming EE dmg for melee huggy bear toons".


This should change.

Nah, monk tears are glorious. Nerf 'em some more.

[Sonos]

Nah, monks are glorious. Barb constant forum tears:Nerf 'em some more.

ftfy

[DrawingGuy]

A common thread on these kinds of posts are always to "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy" rather than "buff my toon or lower incoming EE dmg for melee huggy bear toons".


This should change.

See this is where the dilemma is - the current metas are so powerful that they can solo EE content with little difficulty. It's not a factor of "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy", but taking putting what trivializes content in check. Now if things were on the level where you're effective but not tear-through-solo-on-your-construct, then it should be the goal of bringing other things to that point. There are plenty of things that need buffing - assassinate DC items, unarmed DPS (like making Monk Past Life and Improved Martial Arts do a die size instead of a die step), S&B, Paladins, etc. But how far do you buff them? If it's not to the level of the current massive disparity, it's still a case of "that which makes my toon look gimpy"... but if they go that high, it'll be EE like EN. So on top of my suggested power shaves, here are four boosts:

- Paladins: Give them 3 class feats where they can pick from martial or their diety, granted at 3, 12 and 20. Have "Smite Evil" work on any non-good target... though this touches into the option of a new Prestige for Paladins: Fallen Paladin. Cores that turn your Aura into an Aura of Evil (likely capstone) that lowers all enemies saves instead of raising allies (same amount). Aura of Courage that turns into an Aura of Fear lowering saves against Fear (and enchantment if coupled Chalice Courage of Heaven). Some fear inducing attacks in the tree. Allow "Smite Evil" to work on any target. A Fallen Paladin would still be Lawful Good, they just have a twisted view of the world, and would be a fun thing to add to the game to give Paladins extra utility and power.

- Unarmed Attack: Make wraps count as a melee weapon for the purpose of enhancements and EDs. Change the Monk past life from a pitiful .5 die step back to the original die size increase. Improved Martial Arts the same (so a Monk could potentially have 2d6 unarmed with 1d6 base, 1d8 enhancement from Shintao, 1d10 past life, 2d6 Improved) though leave the centered weapon bonus at .5. The poor base crit profile of 20/x2 will keep the damage in check while helping pull it out of the gutter.

- Assassinate DC items: There needs to be new assassinate weapons/items that reach +5, and should keep up with the spell DC item bonus increases. Also melee items that can utilize INT (other than just staves - so daggers, kukris, rapiers, and all other finessable weapons) as their attack and damage modifiers. Basically tools that allow them to be their potential utility without being as far left in the dust DPS wise as STR builds.

- Shield and Board: Tanking capstones (Sacred Defender and Stalwart) have a Hate Power bonus. Apply a 1 damage boost per 5s that you're at the top of a mobs hate list. Must have Shield equipped. All stacks removed after 5s if you're not the target of a mob, or instantly if shield is removed. Stacks capped at 25. This here solves multiple issues with S&B - increasing their lack luster DPS while also concurrently increasing their holding power as increased damage is compounded with hate gear/enhancements. Cap can always be decreased/increase for balance. If the case is such that an enhancement can't be coded by hate, it then can instead be triggered off being hit/missed, though I find that slightly less flavor fun.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You didn't mention shiradis...

[DrawingGuy]

Pretty sure they were covered with "tear-through-solo-on-your-construct". But EDs are a whole 'nother can of worms. Only reason to leave LD, Fury or Shiradi is if you're min-maxing DCs or tanking (and even that is questionable)... to do otherwise is a major loss and shouldn't be done unless you're ED grinding. Luckily twists allow you to pull the utility you need so you don't have to have a massive DPS loss. Yay! I don't see this changing unless they do a major revamp on either the DPS destinies or boosting the DPS options of the other EDs... and that's something they have already said they're not going to do. I'll write a book of opinions if they even hint they're thinking about it.

[Wipey]

I'll write a book of Pinions if they even hint they're thinking about it.

ftfy

[Sonos]

See this is where the dilemma is - the current metas are so powerful that they can solo EE content with little difficulty. It's not a factor of "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy", but taking putting what trivializes content in check. Now if things were on the level where you're effective but not tear-through-solo-on-your-construct, then it should be the goal of bringing other things to that point. There are plenty of things that need buffing - assassinate DC items, unarmed DPS (like making Monk Past Life and Improved Martial Arts do a die size instead of a die step), S&B, Paladins, etc. But how far do you buff them? If it's not to the level of the current massive disparity, it's still a case of "that which makes my toon look gimpy"... but if they go that high, it'll be EE like EN. So on top of my suggested power shaves, here are four boosts:

- Paladins: Give them 3 class feats where they can pick from martial or their diety, granted at 3, 12 and 20. Have "Smite Evil" work on any non-good target... though this touches into the option of a new Prestige for Paladins: Fallen Paladin. Cores that turn your Aura into an Aura of Evil (likely capstone) that lowers all enemies saves instead of raising allies (same amount). Aura of Courage that turns into an Aura of Fear lowering saves against Fear (and enchantment if coupled Chalice Courage of Heaven). Some fear inducing attacks in the tree. Allow "Smite Evil" to work on any target. A Fallen Paladin would still be Lawful Good, they just have a twisted view of the world, and would be a fun thing to add to the game to give Paladins extra utility and power.

- Unarmed Attack: Make wraps count as a melee weapon for the purpose of enhancements and EDs. Change the Monk past life from a pitiful .5 die step back to the original die size increase. Improved Martial Arts the same (so a Monk could potentially have 2d6 unarmed with 1d6 base, 1d8 enhancement from Shintao, 1d10 past life, 2d6 Improved) though leave the centered weapon bonus at .5. The poor base crit profile of 20/x2 will keep the damage in check while helping pull it out of the gutter.

- Assassinate DC items: There needs to be new assassinate weapons/items that reach +5, and should keep up with the spell DC item bonus increases. Also melee items that can utilize INT (other than just staves - so daggers, kukris, rapiers, and all other finessable weapons) as their attack and damage modifiers. Basically tools that allow them to be their potential utility without being as far left in the dust DPS wise as STR builds.

- Shield and Board: Tanking capstones (Sacred Defender and Stalwart) have a Hate Power bonus. Apply a 1 damage boost per 5s that you're at the top of a mobs hate list. Must have Shield equipped. All stacks removed after 5s if you're not the target of a mob, or instantly if shield is removed. Stacks capped at 25. This here solves multiple issues with S&B - increasing their lack luster DPS while also concurrently increasing their holding power as increased damage is compounded with hate gear/enhancements. Cap can always be decreased/increase for balance. If the case is such that an enhancement can't be coded by hate, it then can instead be triggered off being hit/missed, though I find that slightly less flavor fun.

Good and interesting ideas. My goal was to end on a Completionist Monk. I just love the play style. After a few EEs, and seeing even rogues pew pew with Pinion, I realized I needed to stop hugging red names. The incoming dmg for huggybears was just too much for me. There are a few huggybears out there(huggywolves?) but for me, I hung up my kopeshes and wraps on different toons and went pew pew. Nerfing ranged is a coarse potentiometer, one click down and they lose that which makes them so great. I'd rather see more incoming dmg mitigation on EEs(this too is a tricky knob turn), or as you've alluded too, making the outgoing dmg bridge that gap at least.

[DrawingGuy]

Really, the best way I can think of to help with melee incoming damage is to scale up PRR and AC - make heavy armor and losing evasion a serious debate. Making AC useful on EE instead of pointless and all about dodge/incorp/conceal would go a long way towards helping melee characters actually survive and hug instead of making heavy armor a net survival loss if it touches your dodge. Boosting PRR majorly would also be a boon - something as far as pulling to to a full value (so 1 – (0.99^PRR)) rather than a fraction of a % (currently (1 – (0.99^PRR)) x .65). That essentially makes a 100 PRR build take 37% damage instead of the current 59%, and a 200 PRR take 14% of the damage instead of the current 43%. So instead of EVERYONE taking heavy damage in EE and range being superior, tanks have the advantage of superior survivability and have a point of full turtle over 6 monk for 25% incorp and displacement clickies with a robe for max dodge being the best survival option with no DPS loss.

Obviously that is a bit extreme, so it could be slid a bit less (say x0.8), but as you can see, a change like that would make the whole ball game different. Glass Cannons that rely on dodge at higher risk with heavily armored tanks that can eat the blows rather than the current armored tanks only gaining 10% survivability boost for their loss of evasion.

[redspecter23]

Really, the best way I can think of to help with melee incoming damage is to scale up PRR and AC - make heavy armor and losing evasion a serious debate. Making AC useful on EE instead of pointless and all about dodge/incorp/conceal would go a long way towards helping melee characters actually survive and hug instead of making heavy armor a net survival loss if it touches your dodge. Boosting PRR majorly would also be a boon - something as far as pulling to to a full value (so 1 – (0.99^PRR)) rather than a fraction of a % (currently (1 – (0.99^PRR)) x .65). That essentially makes a 100 PRR build take 37% damage instead of the current 59%, and a 200 PRR take 14% of the damage instead of the current 43%. So instead of EVERYONE taking heavy damage in EE and range being superior, tanks have the advantage of superior survivability and have a point of full turtle over 6 monk for 25% incorp and displacement clickies with a robe for max dodge being the best survival option with no DPS loss.

Obviously that is a bit extreme, so it could be slid a bit less (say x0.8), but as you can see, a change like that would make the whole ball game different. Glass Cannons that rely on dodge at higher risk with heavily armored tanks that can eat the blows rather than the current armored tanks only gaining 10% survivability boost for their loss of evasion.

I think this is one of the main points working against a heavy armor user right now. As a defensive S&B toon, you can hit about 50% mitigation from PRR easily enough, but you won't see much higher than 60% ever and that's sacrificing a lot to get that far. Anyone with a few collateral items and enhancements will hit 30%. Tankish type toons just don't get a meaningful amount more PRR mitigation compared to anyone else. Certainly not enough to make up for the loss of evasion and high dodge cap.

I think that just having a shield equipped (crushing your dps in the process) should be price enough for some extra PRR. An enhancement line that adds 10/15/20 stacking damage mitigation while having a shield equipped would solve the problem. A heavily invested tankish toon could have up to 80% mitigation from PRR with this shield % and standard PRR, reducing the 300 pt EE hits hits to 60 points each. This is the sort of mitigation that a S&B heavy armor wearer should be looking at to be comparable to light armor dodgers. 50% - 60% just doesn't cut it. You're still getting hit for upwards of 100 damage when you get hit.

As for the evasion issue, I think perhaps a destiny ability added to Unyielding Sentinel that procs temp hp when you're hit by elemental spell damage and have a shield and/or heavy armor on could help out. Every time you're hit by fire/ice/electric/acid/sonic spell damage, you proc 10/15/20 temp hp that lasts for 20 seconds. This helps eliminate the "death by a thousand paper cuts" that drain you when bombarded by multiple casters in EH or EN. It takes a small amount of the sting out of EE casters though won't help if you're surrounded by multiple and taking half a dozen shots from Ice Elementals. Combine this with great saves, high elemental resists and absorption items and you start being a bit less vulnerable to massive spell damage.

[arcattaii]

In my opinion, the enhancement tree should also have a minimun class level limitation.
Such as:
T1 requires class lv1
T2 requires class lv3
T3 requires class lv6
T4 requires class lv9
T5 requires class lv12

And for monk form feats, I suggest:
Adept of Forms requires character lv6 and monk lv1
Master of Forms requires character lv12 and monk lv6
Grandmaster of Forms requires character lv18 and monk lv12
Maybe this will not help a lot, but I think it's a good step to balance between multi-class(especially monk splash) and pure-class.

[nibel]

-Remove the extra crit multiplier from Earth Stance.
-Add the extra crit multiplier to Fire Stance.

There, now you have to choose between defense and offense. Fire/Wind are the offensive stances (Fire better crits/more ki, Wind more doublestrike/attack speed), and Earth/Water are the defensive stances (Earth better against physical damage, Water better against magical damage).

[Infiltraitor]

See this is where the dilemma is - the current metas are so powerful that they can solo EE content with little difficulty. It's not a factor of "nerf that which makes my toon look gimpy", but taking putting what trivializes content in check. Now if things were on the level where you're effective but not tear-through-solo-on-your-construct, then it should be the goal of bringing other things to that point. There are plenty of things that need buffing - assassinate DC items, unarmed DPS (like making Monk Past Life and Improved Martial Arts do a die size instead of a die step), S&B, Paladins, etc. But how far do you buff them? If it's not to the level of the current massive disparity, it's still a case of "that which makes my toon look gimpy"... but if they go that high, it'll be EE like EN. So on top of my suggested power shaves, here are four boosts:

- Paladins: Give them 3 class feats where they can pick from martial or their diety, granted at 3, 12 and 20. Have "Smite Evil" work on any non-good target... though this touches into the option of a new Prestige for Paladins: Fallen Paladin. Cores that turn your Aura into an Aura of Evil (likely capstone) that lowers all enemies saves instead of raising allies (same amount). Aura of Courage that turns into an Aura of Fear lowering saves against Fear (and enchantment if coupled Chalice Courage of Heaven). Some fear inducing attacks in the tree. Allow "Smite Evil" to work on any target. A Fallen Paladin would still be Lawful Good, they just have a twisted view of the world, and would be a fun thing to add to the game to give Paladins extra utility and power.

The feat bonus wouldn't help very much, seeing as how fighters are also pretty gimp and they get boatloads of feats. It is also lore breaking.
Paladins need the stuff they were supposed to already have. Holy Avengers + Warhorse animal companion.
Level 5 Feat: You gain a Warhorse for an animal companion. (Riding dog for halflings)

What we also need for paladins is an entirely new enhancement page.

Tier 0: Your mainhand weapon becomes a holy avenger. It counts as a spellcasting implement.
Tier 1: Your holy avenger gains +1 to its enhancement bonus and bypasses cold iron damage reduction.
Tier 2: You gain +5% doublestrike when using your holy avenger.
Tier 3: Your holy avenger gains Holy, bypassing good damage reduction and gains 2d6 good damage on hit.
Tier 4: Your holy avenger deals +[W].
Tier 5: Your critical threat range gains +2 when using your holy avenger.

- Shield and Board: Tanking capstones (Sacred Defender and Stalwart) have a Hate Power bonus. Apply a 1 damage boost per 5s that you're at the top of a mobs hate list. Must have Shield equipped. All stacks removed after 5s if you're not the target of a mob, or instantly if shield is removed. Stacks capped at 25. This here solves multiple issues with S&B - increasing their lack luster DPS while also concurrently increasing their holding power as increased damage is compounded with hate gear/enhancements. Cap can always be decreased/increase for balance. If the case is such that an enhancement can't be coded by hate, it then can instead be triggered off being hit/missed, though I find that slightly less flavor fun.

The problem with Sword and Board is that the sword is hitting 55% as often as Two Weapon Fighting. Due to the fact that intimidate doesn't kill, it is better to have a Tankish DPSer than a DPSish Tank.
Sword and Board needs approximately 30% more attack speed to be decent, closer to 70% to be usable in EE.

-Remove the extra crit multiplier from Earth Stance.
-Add the extra crit multiplier to Fire Stance.

There, now you have to choose between defense and offense. Fire/Wind are the offensive stances (Fire better crits/more ki, Wind more doublestrike/attack speed), and Earth/Water are the defensive stances (Earth better against physical damage, Water better against magical damage).

This is not such a good idea. This basically gives fire both the highest healing amp in the game and very good DPS boost.

[nibel]

This is not such a good idea. This basically gives fire both the highest healing amp in the game and very good DPS boost.

And it is worst than Earth having the best defense and melee DPS in game... how?

[DrawingGuy]

It's true that at this time Earth Stance is the best stance. What they are now:

Fire only gives some STR at the cost of WIS (a heavy penalty for monks that rely on SF and QP)... not really a DPS boost compared to Wind or Earth, so a stance that is only worth it for building Ki or builds trying to build up standard tactics. I never used it pre-19. After U-19 and the QP buff, easy content I run it to be able to QP more often. Meditation of War for those that take it is 100% useless as the tactics bonus doesn't stack with any items. Jidz turns boosts Fire with Heal Amp and Sun Soul gives vorpals a small heal with a restoration strike. I have a hard time factoring in those bonuses as the items required to get them are **** compared to end game content and I find it too big a sacrifice to fit them (other than popping on a jidz when self-scroll healing), but Fire does fair nicely in both their bonuses.

Wind Stance's attack speed buff is worthless as it doesn't stack with alacrity or haste, though the doublestrike bonus does, making it one of the better DPS stances, though at cost to survivability. I do think the attack speed should stack as just some double strike at the cost of HP is not worth it to me. Meditation of War does help this a bit by adding more offstrike chances, making it where I do use it on bosses when I'm not tanking (though turning off incite is one of the bigger reasons). Jidz bonus is a joke with a bonus to jump, Sun Soul can give FOM + 6% doublestrike for 10s on a 10s cooldown for <50% uptime.

Earth Stance - where I spend 90% of my time. Gives PRR, CON, has enhancements built around it that increase that PRR and as well as crit chance, all on top of a +1 multiplier. Cost is dex, which most monks/builds around their stances can easily afford the reflex loss along with -10% movement speed which is nothing. Add in Meditation of War that gives more PRR and HP for pure monks (dodge cap hit is too big for non pure as dodge is > PRR), and Earth Stance is the end all be all stance. Jidz gives a die step increasing DPS, Sun Soul drops a bubble that absorbs 25% damage for 10s on a 10s cooldown. Sun Soul only really helps on bosses unless you're the type that stops and fights trash in place.

Water Stance - Your DPS loss for DC and survivability stance. Take a hit to STR for dodge, WIS, saves, and later base KI generation. This stance with dodge and saves definitely helps against magic, but doesn't hold a candle to Earth for survivability as most monks/unarmored splashes are in the low PRR where Earth's bonus makes a big difference in EE content (not to mention already have high enough saves). So really it's picked only for the DCs with the dodge/save bonuses only helping it not be a suicidal stance. Meditation of War help by increasing the dodge cap by a nice 5% bumping up dodge potential up to 33%. Really, though, I only go in this stance in EE content when there is either few mobs (aka old content as the new content zergs make Water a liability), or a caster to CC (or more likely clean up anything they missed killing with their second shot Shiradi) the mobs. Jidz gives a poison attack ONLY on vorpal that does 1d6 dex damage (useless in Epic content) and a short paralyze... on a DC 17 save. Vorpals don't happen enough to find hope of mobs rolling a 1 for any use. Sun Soul gives Fire Shield (Cold) on vorpal (for 10s with 10s cd) - though if you need that, you could just scroll it. Water, unfortunately, is screwed over for both item sets.


So, yes, Earth Stance having survivability + DPS makes the others look like junk. Add in items and enhancements, and the gap only grows. The question is, is nerfing it to only survivability only the right solution? Or should the other stances be looked at? Whether Earth should have its multiplier moved to Fire or not is a tough debate. Earth has enhancements built around that bonus, and unarmed is on a **** profile, so it actually needs it. However when you put it in the hands of a Centered Kensei, it becomes very powerful DPS bonus along with the Earth survivability. My own opinions:

Water Stance - Overall this is still a good stance. Items need a desperate overhaul in the bonuses they provide to Water Stance, but don't think the stance itself needs any changes.

Wind Stance - I personally think the attack speed bonus needs to be unique and stack. It really should be a glass cannon - DPS for Survivability - and it currently having half of that DPS be useless is unfortunate. Jidz I think should provide at the very least Blur along with its jump bonus.

Earth Stance - Under the current mechanics, I actually do think Earth could lose it's crit multiplier and have it placed on Fire. Instead, Tier 2 and Tier 3 should gain Fortification bonuses (something like 15 and 30%). That, or make the multiplier apply ONLY to unarmed damage (ie giving you Fists of Stone). The latter option wouldn't break current enhancements.

Fire Stance - While the item bonuses are great for this stance, I still find it to be the weakest of the four. Gaining Earth's crit multiplier would make it a strong DPS choice. Another option would be to apply 1d4 and 1d8 fire damage to tiers 2 and 3 respectively. Short story - it needs something more than some STR and Ki.

[Ivan_Milic]

Crit multiplier belongs to fire, makes no sense that its in earth stance.