Update on New Divine Epic Destiny

[SirValentine]

- A high tier option to grant either or both a way to debuff or Crowd Control. Divines lack this in tougher content, this is a good place to put something in to combat that.

Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

[Snapdragoon]

Also, spellcasting is not a niche.

I saw that and thought it explained a lot of things really XD

[Silverleafeon]

Went shopping and had a brainstorm, probably something the devs have already thought about:


Take this:



Ascendance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 5mins) Transformation Assume angelic form (type outsider good, angel) . Any time you cast light damage spell, chance to gain temporary spell points. Any time you cast single target cure spells on a target, chance to give the target temporary HP. Any time you smite an enemy, chance to gain temporary HP. Your Angelic Presence and Astral Vibrance abilities do not have health requirements while in Angelic form. Astral Vibrance has no spell point drain while you are in Angelic form. Duration 2 minutes. Costs 50SP.


EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 20 No requirements


and change one small part of the code:
Duration 2 minutes become duration 10 minutes

Ascendance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 5mins) Transformation Assume angelic form (type outsider good, angel) . Any time you cast light damage spell, chance to gain temporary spell points. Any time you cast single target cure spells on a target, chance to give the target temporary HP. Any time you smite an enemy, chance to gain temporary HP. Your Angelic Presence and Astral Vibrance abilities do not have health requirements while in Angelic form. Astral Vibrance has no spell point drain while you are in Angelic form. Duration 10 minutes. Costs 50SP.


Suddenly, you can have astral vibrance on all the at time.
This should grant a light and heal type archon effect, gaining stacks in a passive manner.
I think that should solve the stack problem.
This would help with spell points.
This would grant a power boost.


This would leave you with following to consider:

Divine Wrath tends to lose its target due to extreme slow casting time.
Solution, allow targeting allies/ground/self and~or allow quicken to be applied.

The capstone needs work.
Simply changing the capstone to have a cool down of 5~10 minutes would greatly help.

There is no spell pen or dc boosts in the epic destiny.
Not sure what to say here.



For reference:




Astral Vibrance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 10 seconds) Toggle While you are above 50% Health enemies below 50% health take 1d4 light damage every 2 seconds, increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds), and nearby allies below 50% health receive 1d4 positive healing every 2 seconds increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds). Costs 1 sp per 2 second, increasing by 1 every 2 seconds when active.

EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 8 No requirements


I have actually finished out of a quest, forgot to turn this off and found myself almost completely without spell points while selling, repairing, and buffing as an epic character. Its quite a hassle turning it on and off in combat at the same time as ascendance, sometime the clicks are on cool down.



Also for reference:



Reborn in Light Epic Moment: Active Ability: (Cooldown 30mins) Each time you gain Endless Ardor or Righteous Fervor you gain a counter. When it reaches 50, ability becomes available. Epic Moment Transformation: You are healed to full health and activate Ascendance, Angelic Presence, and Astral Vibrance--even if they are currently on cooldown. For 2 minutes (or until you leave Angelic form), you are immune to light damage, gain 50% Incorporeality, and gain +100 Light and Healing Power. This ability can be used while dead, bringing you back at full health and in addition to the above benefits, the cooldowns of Light and Positive Energy spells are reduced to 1/5th normal, all spells cost 50% spell points. All of your physical attacks gain On Hit 100 Light damage and On Critical destroy evil undead or evil outsiders under 1000 hit points.

EDP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requires: Blood and Radiance 1



My recommendations,

Ascendance duration raised from 2 to 10 minutes, allowing Astral Vibrance to be useful and become a hallmark of the destiny.
Quicken applied to Divine Wrath, allowing it to be consistent.
Reborn in light cool down dropped from 30 to 5 minutes, granting a power boost and gaining a hallmark trait for this destiny.

This quickly and easily trundles up Exalted Angel, imho...


As far as anyone worrying that this will make the epic destiny a agro magnet, Favored Souls are very, very used to that. When Fawn is in the Fall of Truth raid, she naturally drifts to the center when the spectral dragons appear, knowing her auras will attract them anyway.

[Silverleafeon]

I am going to assume that the new warpriest type epic destiny has something very hot in it like:

Level 3 innate: Any weapons you wield are considered your diety's favored weapon.


Thereby addressing the whole cleric lore situation in one fell swoop.

[rosedarkthorn]

This may have come up - but given that the Longbow is a favoured weapon (of which there are so few) can we ask that some (if not all) melee focused abilities worked with ranged as well? I get that balance-wise this isn't always easy, but ranged toons get shafted a bit by most weapon-focused destinies, and before anyone brings up Fury - well, a decent, definitely WAI alternative to Shiradi would be appreciated.

Agreed, considering that my cleric currently uses longbows. This would be very much appreciated.

[Silverleafeon]

My toon often forgets to push Ascendancy.

Why?

Healers are very distracted.
They spend most of their time watching red bars, which leave far less time than normal for looking at cool downs.
Therefore a more forgiving approach to cool down in Exalted Angel would be appreciated.

I would be the first to admit I would love to see a DC boost in angel, but having a 4~5 minute cool down on reborn would
make the epic destiny more like a sorcerer. I like the suggestion of lower spell point costs, perhaps a tier 5 ~ 10% discount?

[Arlathen]

Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

Seriously, take care what you do with Exalted Angel here. While I whole-heartedly agree it needs some work, please remember that there are some Paladins out there using this destiny for Melee, Healing & Utility. And what's cooler than being a Paladin that can change into an Angel, leap about with Wings, 'Strike Down' his enemies with glorious Light-powered strikes and healing with Renewal? Seriously. My ESOS Paladin really enjoys some of the aspects of this destiny.

I'll take some time to think through and post some suggestions on improvements for Exalted Angel, but this is my kneejerk reaction

[Braegan]

Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

I'd welcome that as it's a long overdue, overlooked slight.

[Silverleafeon]

I'd welcome that as it's a long overdue, overlooked slight.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm

[Silverleafeon]

Testing out Astral Vibrance

Every two seconds it costs 1+x sp where x is the last cost.
It got up to -75 per two second before it turned itself off because of zero sp.


It does not damage foes over half health, and it does not heal allies over half health.
Its hard to test it, turning it off and on with the terrible spell cost.

[soloist12]

It sounds like...

1) They wanted to do a melee tree, so they're still going to
2) They don't want bother fixing under-powered existing EDs, so they're not going to
3) We complained about under-powered existing EDs, so they're going to make some token changes to shut us up
4) We said we wanted DCs, so they're going to randomly throw a token DC boost into the melee tree to shut us up
5) We said that a caster tree was more needed than yet another melee tree, so they decided to call the new melee tree a "hybrid" to shut us up

Am I wrong?

Is the main issue development time? If so, my suggestion:

1) Don't waste anyone's time with an unattractive mishmish ED
2) Table the new ED entirely for now, until you actually have the resources to do it right
3) Spend the resources you were going to use developing a new ED for fixing the existing EDs

And, as was said in the other thread, there's already several good melee EDs out there, but no good divine caster ED out there at all.

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

[EllisDee37]

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in.

In that case, I respectfully request that you shelve plans for a third divine destiny altogether until you do have enough time to give the sphere a proper re-work. This new direction you've described, where you're turning Exalted Angel from the de-facto divine DC destiny into a healbot tree and then creating a new third caster/melee hybrid tree, this direction sounds poor. What's worse, implementing this new hybrid tree will further entrench the divine sphere, meaning it would take even more work to properly fix than it would take now. Which means it will never be properly fixed.

This is an unfortunate, disheartening update, but I appreciate the communication at least. Very sad panda. (And the cynic in me expects that this new destiny will fail to include both wisdom as a stat choice and spell penetration per tier for divines. Both are of course required for any caster destiny, which is why Exalted is the de-facto divine caster destiny. It's the only one that offers both.)

[EllisDee37]

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

So if I'm understanding this concept, you want the divine characters to work as follows:

DC casters use this new destiny
Melee use this new destiny
Healbots use Exalted Angel
Tanks use Unyielding Sovereignty

?

There are a lot of things I would say, but I promised a better outlook for a full year. So I will limit myself to saying that this design concept is...suboptimal.

[Antheal]

4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

So does that mean you'll be changing something to allow for a pure Über-healing-based Epic Destiny?

[Silverleafeon]

I'm going to play "Let's Assume." even though Katherine Hepburn would advise against it...


There is something big ahead to do.
Let us assume that is raising the epic destiny levels from 5 to 10 by the time the level cap goes to 30.

You want the new tree usable by melee and casters.
Let us assume that is making off destiny farming easier.

You want to wait on completely redoing any epic destinies.
Let us assume that is because with the upcoming power boost all epic destinies with transform.

You have no inclination to work on the Sorcerer capstone.
Let us assume that Draconic Fury duration will be increased in the future transformation, fixing the epic moment.

You have waited forever to even consider reducing the cool down of Reborn in Light.
Let us assume you knew epic destinies were increasing to level 10, and it could be dealt with at that time.

You see that the divine sphere is lacking, and are moving to work on that.
Let us assume you intend to balance out the two most lacking epic destinies before the power surge.

You are trying to keep balance in the epic destinies.
Let us assume you know that increasing the levels will increase power on its own.

You are aware that divine DCs are well below normal and need attention.
Let us assume you will address that within both Exalted Angel in minor ways and in the new ED in major ways.

You realize that Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel are both highly dependent upon favored soul and paladin respectively.
Let us assume you realize smite evil and lay on hand are based on paladin levels, and only certain favored souls get archons.

Realizing you want to make off destiny experiences (ode) more friendly in the new epic destiny, you look at the old as well.
Let us assume you will adjust certain aspects to make more classes be able to use these destinies.

[ishr]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

Great to see progress here, but what we'd really like to see is fixes to existing BROKEN enhancements like eldritch knight's scroll mastery. Please don't neglect the sorcerer, she's already hugely underpowered and barely made it into the enhancement pass to begin with. Right now the overly-nerfed sorc is what needs attention.

[Silverleafeon]

Seriously, take care what you do with Exalted Angel here....

I agree, it need genius, the kind of genius that brought us Divine Disciple thru a combined dev effort.

I'm having trouble testing astral vibrance with all its tangles, and its complex.

The sp cost increasing +1 per use is ridiculous.
Turning on Ascendancy every 5 minutes leaves me with places were the party is not doing much at times.
Party members under half health get healed quickly from afar.
Monster under half health die fairly quickly.
Perhaps more EE questing would help, but that is were one hardly has any time to watch cool down counters.
Sigh...

[Silverleafeon]

I like the idea of some SLAs in the new divine destiny.
Please include a light SLA that we can twist into Exalted Angel.
Two would be even better, particularly if one was area of effect.

Please consider including other SLAs that are wisdom or charisma based.

Tsuanmi has a downfall, in that it gets rid of most debuffs and crowd control.
So the divine sphere needs more twistable SLAs.

Consider carefully a third healing SLA somewhere, twistable or not.

[rayworks]

Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

What spell is that?

Why write a comment to an important issue and not include details like which spell?

[Silverleafeon]

What spell is that?

http://ddowiki.com/page/Druid_spells



Earthquake

Evocation

Summons an earthquake beneath your enemies' feet. Enemies within the area of effect have an additional 30% spell failure chance, and every three seconds they are knocked down and take 2 to 16 points of damage. A successful reflex save vs. the damage halves the damage, and a reflex save vs. the knockdown negates it. Flying enemies are immune. D&D Dice: Deals 2d8 level bludgeoning damage.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm
It is found in the sdr {D&D 3rd edition public domain} under cleric spells level 8, right beside firestorm.

Bringing this spell into the cleric/favored soul spell book would be earthshaking (pardon the pun) akin to divine punishment being added.

Fawngate's final build might be a druid, partly because of this spell.
Even if it is added to the cleric spell book, druids will be more effective using it, because they have
water elemental form and the spells: sleet storm and ice storm.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm

Earthquake

Evocation [Earth]


Level:
Clr 8, Destruction 8, Drd 8, Earth 7

Components:
V, S, DF

Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area:
80-ft.-radius spread (S)

Duration:
1 round

Saving Throw:
See text

Spell Resistance:
No

When you cast earthquake, an intense but highly localized tremor rips the ground. The shock knocks creatures down, collapses structures, opens cracks in the ground, and more. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can’t move or attack. A spellcaster on the ground must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose any spell he or she tries to cast. The earthquake affects all terrain, vegetation, structures, and creatures in the area. The specific effect of an earthquake spell depends on the nature of the terrain where it is cast.

Cave, Cavern, or Tunnel

The spell collapses the roof, dealing 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to any creature caught under the cave-in (Reflex DC 15 half) and pinning that creature beneath the rubble (see below). An earthquake cast on the roof of a very large cavern could also endanger those outside the actual area but below the falling debris.

Cliffs

Earthquake causes a cliff to crumble, creating a landslide that travels horizontally as far as it fell vertically. Any creature in the path takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).

Open Ground

Each creature standing in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall down. Fissures open in the earth, and every creature on the ground has a 25% chance to fall into one (Reflex DC 20 to avoid a fissure). At the end of the spell, all fissures grind shut, killing any creatures still trapped within.

Structure

Any structure standing on open ground takes 100 points of damage, enough to collapse a typical wooden or masonry building, but not a structure built of stone or reinforced masonry. Hardness does not reduce this damage, nor is it halved as damage dealt to objects normally is. Any creature caught inside a collapsing structure takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).

River, Lake, or Marsh

Fissures open underneath the water, draining away the water from that area and forming muddy ground. Soggy marsh or swampland becomes quicksand for the duration of the spell, sucking down creatures and structures. Each creature in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or sink down in the mud and quicksand. At the end of the spell, the rest of the body of water rushes in to replace the drained water, possibly drowning those caught in the mud.

Pinned beneath Rubble

Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.

This actually would be a huge bone to throw the divine right now, let them chew on that till December...