Enhancement feedback project, volume 2: Barbarian

[Khurse]

The thing is, in today's game, Barbs are terrible for new players to try.
Sure they can get to 20 (but honestly, what class can't? And many of them can solo to 20 far easier) but in today's game of BYOH for most runs, being a melee that's completely unable to self heal while using their
main ability is not going to get them into a lot of groups.

And again, a level 20 self healing barb is still not going to have the overall damage mitigation, survivability, and DPS of the 12/6/2 split.
You can (of course) say that the monk splash is overpowered, that the Paladin 2 levels give to much, etc etc, but that's still what you're balancing against.

You don't really need to balance 20 Fighter vis a vis 20 barb, because fighters have the utility of being able to splash with (imo) the two best splash melee classes, Monk and Paladin. They compliment each other very well.
(Monk of course works well with pretty much any class that can splash it).

But again, there's no way that even a Bladeforged 18 barb/2 rogue (for evasion) with the ability to cast reconstruct , or a human (healing amp) with the same and the ability to use Heal scrolls is overpowered compared to other builds.

The game isn't about 20 Fighter vs 20 Barbarian vs 20 whatever any more, the enhancement/ED system has seen to that.
Allowing a player who forgoes more than minimal multiclassing to be able to self heal is not going to overpower the class, nor result in waves of players suddenly making barbs FOTM.

It will allow players (both new and not so new) to have a little more fun, and be able to actually take care of themselves without feeling the need to have another player babysit them.

[sephiroth1084]

Here are the things I feel the barbarian trees need, in some distribution:

• A couple of moderate-to-strong CC abilities without feat prerequisites--Barbarians are starved for feats, and can't afford to be messing with **** like Combat Expertise to be getting to Improved Trip. Ideally, they should gain the ability to perform AoE versions of the common melee tactics feats (maybe do a Stunning Blow attack that affects all enemies in a Cleave arc?).
• A significant source of temporary HP--I'm talking, getting up to 100-200 temporary HP with some regularity (maybe on-crit, or higher than that on-vorpal).
• OR a significant source of self-healing. I'd like Ravager, probably, to gain a tier 3 or 4 Vampirism ability that scales up a lot (maybe up to 10-20 HP per hit?).
• OR, as an alternative to the above, big-time healing on killing a creature. Maybe a boosted Heal when landing the killing blow?
• More PRR without being tied to an obnoxious mechanic tied to your weapon and requiring a long build-up.
• Perhaps, in Frenzied Berserker, something closer to the PnP version of Deathless Frenzy--perhaps, while Deathless Frenzy is active, you cannot be killed by hit point damage. You HP can continue to go negative indefinitely, but if you die, you're saddled with a Death Penalty timer, similar to what we have in raids like Lord of Blades and Caught in the Web, maybe based on how low your HP is at the time of your death, or upon how long you were in Death Frenzy. Maybe add an additional penalty to dying while under 0 HP while Deathless Frenzy is active, some debuff or some such. Make it high risk, high reward (you're basically unkillable). Probably also include a debuff once you go below 0 that removes spell-, or item-based immunities from things like Freedom of Movement and Death Ward.

[Qhualor]

The thing is, in today's game, Barbs are terrible for new players to try.
Sure they can get to 20 (but honestly, what class can't? And many of them can solo to 20 far easier) but in today's game of BYOH for most runs, being a melee that's completely unable to self heal while using their
main ability is not going to get them into a lot of groups.

And again, a level 20 self healing barb is still not going to have the overall damage mitigation, survivability, and DPS of the 12/6/2 split.
You can (of course) say that the monk splash is overpowered, that the Paladin 2 levels give to much, etc etc, but that's still what you're balancing against.

You don't really need to balance 20 Fighter vis a vis 20 barb, because fighters have the utility of being able to splash with (imo) the two best splash melee classes, Monk and Paladin. They compliment each other very well.
(Monk of course works well with pretty much any class that can splash it).

But again, there's no way that even a Bladeforged 18 barb/2 rogue (for evasion) with the ability to cast reconstruct , or a human (healing amp) with the same and the ability to use Heal scrolls is overpowered compared to other builds.

The game isn't about 20 Fighter vs 20 Barbarian vs 20 whatever any more, the enhancement/ED system has seen to that.
Allowing a player who forgoes more than minimal multiclassing to be able to self heal is not going to overpower the class, nor result in waves of players suddenly making barbs FOTM.

It will allow players (both new and not so new) to have a little more fun, and be able to actually take care of themselves without feeling the need to have another player babysit them.

a new player is going to struggle with getting to cap just as much as any class. when you know the game well enough and know how to play the class, leveling a barb to cap is just as easy as any other class. the difference is the play style if you care about speed to cap.

a barb is not unable to self heal in BYOH. if you know how to play the class and use your head than pots are fine. the amount of damage a barb deals should be killing mobs faster than he is taking damage. when there are up to 5 other players in the group, the damage mitigation is lessened and you can play off each others dps. often casters and ranged will get agro first. if you stick with them than you can beat on the mobs and should have them killed before they turn to you. there are lots of other ways, but in heroics a barb can self heal just fine to cap in any kind of grouping.

you underestimate the power of a barb. damage mitigation is no different than any other class that needs to gear for it. they do lack in it and it does need a big boost, but it is possible to grind out the gear. it just takes a lot more investment than other classes. in heroics, mobs should be dying quickly and as I said, pots are enough.

I don't know about Bladeforged. never played one but it seems they have better self sufficiency with repair. I don't know.

I look at both of my barbarians and see the damage out put they can deal. my human barb crits often and hits in the thousands of damage a lot. my TWF dwarf Ravager with no EDs is critting in the hundreds and its often. with the ability to heal scroll while raged would be no different than any other class that can dps and use heal scrolls. the difference is my barb will be doing a lot more damage than the guy next to me and I wont need to back off as much. all I would need is better defense, but I can get a lot of that from grinding the gear. the whole thing does not fit into how barbs should be played and makes sense to me.

[Qhualor]

Here are the things I feel the barbarian trees need, in some distribution:

• A couple of moderate-to-strong CC abilities without feat prerequisites--Barbarians are starved for feats, and can't afford to be messing with **** like Combat Expertise to be getting to Improved Trip. Ideally, they should gain the ability to perform AoE versions of the common melee tactics feats (maybe do a Stunning Blow attack that affects all enemies in a Cleave arc?).
• A significant source of temporary HP--I'm talking, getting up to 100-200 temporary HP with some regularity (maybe on-crit, or higher than that on-vorpal).
• OR a significant source of self-healing. I'd like Ravager, probably, to gain a tier 3 or 4 Vampirism ability that scales up a lot (maybe up to 10-20 HP per hit?).
• OR, as an alternative to the above, big-time healing on killing a creature. Maybe a boosted Heal when landing the killing blow?
• More PRR without being tied to an obnoxious mechanic tied to your weapon and requiring a long build-up.
• Perhaps, in Frenzied Berserker, something closer to the PnP version of Deathless Frenzy--perhaps, while Deathless Frenzy is active, you cannot be killed by hit point damage. You HP can continue to go negative indefinitely, but if you die, you're saddled with a Death Penalty timer, similar to what we have in raids like Lord of Blades and Caught in the Web, maybe based on how low your HP is at the time of your death, or upon how long you were in Death Frenzy. Maybe add an additional penalty to dying while under 0 HP while Deathless Frenzy is active, some debuff or some such. Make it high risk, high reward (you're basically unkillable). Probably also include a debuff once you go below 0 that removes spell-, or item-based immunities from things like Freedom of Movement and Death Ward.

I like some of these ideas, but I wouldn't say barbs are starved for feats. if they are trying to maximize dps, than they cant really afford to give up a feat for something like combat expertise. since a barb would obviously want PA, CE is a waste of a feat since you cant have both active and a barb loses a lot of dps without PA on.

[sephiroth1084]

I like some of these ideas, but I wouldn't say barbs are starved for feats. if they are trying to maximize dps, than they cant really afford to give up a feat for something like combat expertise. since a barb would obviously want PA, CE is a waste of a feat since you cant have both active and a barb loses a lot of dps without PA on.

All of the characters without bonus feats are pretty much starved for feats, but let's look at barbarians. They get 7 feats, and they really should be focusing on DPS primarily, otherwise you could be playing someone more effective, so:

1. Power Attack
2. Cleave
3. Great Cleave
4. Improved Critical
5. THF
6. ITHF
7. GTHF
   That's all your feats. Meanwhile, they probably also would like:
8. Stunning Blow
9. Combat Expertise
10. Improved Trip
11. Slicing Blow
12. Toughness
13. Brutal Throw
14. ...

I think there are a few others on the "wants" list here. Yes, you can give up GTHF, but that's a not insignificant chunk of DPS you're losing.

[Qhualor]

All of the characters without bonus feats are pretty much starved for feats, but let's look at barbarians. They get 7 feats, and they really should be focusing on DPS primarily, otherwise you could be playing someone more effective, so:

1. Power Attack
2. Cleave
3. Great Cleave
4. Improved Critical
5. THF
6. ITHF
7. GTHF
   That's all your feats. Meanwhile, they probably also would like:
8. Stunning Blow
9. Combat Expertise
10. Improved Trip
11. Slicing Blow
12. Toughness
13. Brutal Throw
14. ...

I think there are a few others on the "wants" list here. Yes, you can give up GTHF, but that's a not insignificant chunk of DPS you're losing.

my human barb took toughness for the extra feat to eventually get epic toughness. my dwarf did too, but he doesn't have GTWF.

IT would be nice to have and actually easily possible today to meet the Int requirement now that we have up to +5 tomes, but it means wasting a feat for CE. a barb will want PA active and cant have both stances on at the same time.

Brutal Throw isn't something a barb would really care about. it would be a nice perk to have, but how often do we need to pull out a returning weapon?

Cruel Cut from Ravager tree is way better than Slicing Blow and cheaper to spend the AP than to waste a feat slot.

other than your list of 7 plus toughness, Whirlwind Attack, Stunning Blow and Improved Trip are the only feats I would like to have for a barb. there really are no other feats that a barb would greatly benefit from.

[lyrecono]

There should be a level 18 or 20 ability that lets Barbs use SLA's and spells/scrolls while raged.
I completely understand the reason that Barbs originally weren't given this, but with the power levels now in the game I don't see this as being even a little unbalanced.

not being able to use scrolls whille being raged was a trade of for the dps, however a barb mechanicly doesn't get the dps needed to justify the trade of.

Here are the things I feel the barbarian trees need, in some distribution:

• A couple of moderate-to-strong CC abilities without feat prerequisites--Barbarians are starved for feats, and can't afford to be messing with **** like Combat Expertise to be getting to Improved Trip. Ideally, they should gain the ability to perform AoE versions of the common melee tactics feats (maybe do a Stunning Blow attack that affects all enemies in a Cleave arc?).
• A significant source of temporary HP--I'm talking, getting up to 100-200 temporary HP with some regularity (maybe on-crit, or higher than that on-vorpal).
• OR a significant source of self-healing. I'd like Ravager, probably, to gain a tier 3 or 4 Vampirism ability that scales up a lot (maybe up to 10-20 HP per hit?).
• OR, as an alternative to the above, big-time healing on killing a creature. Maybe a boosted Heal when landing the killing blow?
• More PRR without being tied to an obnoxious mechanic tied to your weapon and requiring a long build-up.

nice list, however vampirism isn't realy supported by the 2hf style the barb usualy sports, works better when you have lots of attacks. in EE's this wouldn't work well enough.
an enhancemnt that would simulate having improved trip for tantrum (thus skipping 2 feats and a int of 13) would help a lot.
Making the tantrum abileties go of against all mobs they hit with cleave/great cleave/supreme cleave/lay waste&momentum swing would justify taking a barb in EE's for CC

As for thoughness, how can you justify taking it for 28 hp in heroic levels? i can understand it for epic thoughness a bit....

[sephiroth1084]

nice list, however vampirism isn't realy supported by the 2hf style the barb usualy sports, works better when you have lots of attacks. in EE's this wouldn't work well enough.

I'm sure that there is a value that would be sufficient to at least help barbarians in EEs in a real way. Even with 2-handed fighting.

As for thoughness, how can you justify taking it for 28 hp in heroic levels? i can understand it for epic thoughness a bit....

[/quote] Well, right now, I can't, but that's because the class is feat-starved, and as you pointed out, Toughness is not just 28 HP, it's also a prerequisite for Epic Toughness for another 50 HP.

[lyrecono]

true, 50 hp is nice to have

yet, thats 2 feats for 78 hp...
as for vampire ism on weapons, in EE's, uless you can get 150 back per (2handed) hit, it's not gone help much

[sephiroth1084]

true, 50 hp is nice to have

yet, thats 2 feats for 78 hp...
as for vampire ism on weapons, in EE's, uless you can get 150 back per (2handed) hit, it's not gone help much

I don't think you need that much healing per hit for it to be useful on EE. First of all, you can still make some attempts to avoid getting hit a bit, Cleaves on multiple enemies will bring in a big chunk of healing, and we attack faster than NPCs do for the most part. On top of that, vampirism doesn't need to be your only source of healing; it just needs to do enough healing that you're not constantly on the brink of death, and offer enough supplemental healing that your other healing options are effective.

Personally, I think that if vampirism were up at 50-100 per hit, that might be enough to be significant. Also, remember that there are other difficulties, and readily available passive healing that's too good can totally obliterate those other difficulties. Right now, the problem we have in the game in a lot of places is that some healing is too good for normal and hard (heroic and epic), and not at all sufficient for (epic) elite. Part of this problem is due to the gap between epic hard and epic elite being so enormous.

[Scrag]

Only because monk splash are in general already unbalanced, doesn't mean we have to bork the others too.

I am tired of hearing monk this monk that. It is, imho, because there is a price tag (vip or purchase) that we hear all this ****.

Thief 2 gets you evasion +trapping +sneak dice
Paladin 2 gets you divine grace
Cleric 1 gets you endless divine might + heavy armor proficiency + magical training (bard/cleric1/wiz1 0% armor penalty anyone? W/ an extra meta feat to boot?)
Wiz 1 gets you a meta feat + magical training

The core classes, and monk is one of them, were explicitly designed to allow _all_ players to be able to jump into the game with enough survival tools by level 3 to actually last long enough to enjoy a potential campaign, or enough tools to get through a one-off quest.

What is wrong here has nothing to do with monk this monk that, and everything to do with gear creep. You would _never_ see a wizard be able to cast more than 1 or 2 fireballs at level _5_. Yet here, you can get a lovely ioun stone that will allow you to cast massively more fireballs than any noob to the game with no equip and no experience (vibrant purple ioun, archmagi + spell pen 3 at level 5? +400 spell points for a pure sorc at that level?!?!?)

What is wrong has nothing to do with the classes, and everything to do with expectations from players who are not new to the game. As someone who has almost played a year, having seen items like greensteel weapons or aforementioned vibrant purple ioun stone for the first time, I was simply astounded. I could barely trap as a split ranger/rogue at level 12 until the enhancement pass, because the equipment I needed simply didn't exist (first life, first char ever).

And this game is outright hostile to anyone who comes from a pnp background, attempting to do something even remotely like create a balanced char. A pure fighter with a wis of 10? Unspeakable! The cost of wis vrs con would likely murder you. 50 hp wizard at level 7? Go home.

These are the sort of unrealistic expectations that have arisen in this game. The skills and feats are assigned in such a way that a new char, true to pnp roots, could play "heroic normal", with whatever ghetto gear they can loot, and be successful.

While I am sure it irritates some people to see splash functionality, stripping it means destroying the ability for new players to get into the game. Is that a throat you really want to slit?

[zwiebelring]

I very much like the Ravager and Occult Slayer for their debuff qualities but they are still not enough. The Fear Aura should be like Presence of The Forge. No save debuff. Together with Cleaver and Crushing Despair debuff enhancement you can be very supportive. I think, Barbarians need to have more of these things to make keeping them alive worthwhile. Put some abilities on triggering the rage (Primal Scream could have been a candidate for that) in order to make using rages an asset and not a disadvantage like it is still now.

As long as there aren't more self healing options like healing spring (independence from rage), this class runs against the mainstream, which dictates self healing options outside of SF pot.s, which I see as being outdated anyways. -10 to stats is a tradeoff, which just does not fit the current playstyle of this game.